Darth Detroit
Sr Member
Boy thats very well said!:thumbsup
Official Save Masterreplicas Star Wars line petition
- Thread starter Joclad Danva
- Start date
Boy thats very well said!:thumbsup
darthgordon
Sr Member
Yeah, it is my impression that Lucas allows it to go on. He knows those costumes worn by the 501st are not licensed. He knows that many of the props and costumes used in the fan films (which are even shown and judged at Star Wars Celebrations) are not licensed. If props and costumes are mass produced and sold then Lucasfilm steps in. It's one of things I respect him for.
I was unaware that Paramount had done that in the 70's. They must have lightened up a few years later (because for a short time, conventions were actually fun). Then after a few years of ownership the greedy Viacom decided to do the same thing. For a while they were threating everything with the name Star Trek on it. This included any fan web sites. Luckily, after a short period of time the web sites came back, but the conventions haven't been fun since.
Did I stray too far off topic?
I was unaware that Paramount had done that in the 70's. They must have lightened up a few years later (because for a short time, conventions were actually fun). Then after a few years of ownership the greedy Viacom decided to do the same thing. For a while they were threating everything with the name Star Trek on it. This included any fan web sites. Luckily, after a short period of time the web sites came back, but the conventions haven't been fun since.
Did I stray too far off topic?
vaderdarth
Master Member
I signed it, but don't feel it will do any good. The two business have grown too far apart in their way of thinking. I don't see a resolution as sad as it seems. Too bad as I thought they were doing so well.
To go into "it won't happen" a little further...
In the 90's, the FDA tried to pass laws regulating the health supplement field and products. My uncle which I work for, was head of the National Nutritional Foods Association, a rather large national association and lobbying group. We went to Orin Hatch directly as many of the supplement manufacturers reside in Utah. I flew out and worked with his staffers for one week working on the Dietary Supplement Health and Education Act of 1994 with my uncle and Orin Hatch and his staff. The bill did pass and I have a signed letter from Orin thanking me for my work in getting the bill together. I did a ton of research and footwork for my uncle and Senator Hatch. I do have a very unique view personally how his staff and he works getting the machinery rolling to get a bill passed.
With Senator Hatch & staff writing a few articles on the web about prop replicas and regulating them, I have no doubt a rep from some studio also met with Senator Hatch and discussed the issue. It was dropped but the machine was rolling. I believe it was probably an issue of higher priority issues that caught his attention, or this would have gone much further. I doubt it was not dropped totally and his beginning efforts sits awaiting a time when some replica issue comes up in a very public manner to bring this back to the table. That "it will never happen" mentality is being blind to what has occurred already.
I assume you did catch the other real world already happened examples as well and hope you did not dismiss them.
As this board and this hobby has already been brought to the light by a Senator, several studios and the hobby itself, I assure you it is imperative that members show respect to the studios and their wishes pertaining to our actions here. Otherwise, one day that "never will it happen" senario will be law.
In the 90's, the FDA tried to pass laws regulating the health supplement field and products. My uncle which I work for, was head of the National Nutritional Foods Association, a rather large national association and lobbying group. We went to Orin Hatch directly as many of the supplement manufacturers reside in Utah. I flew out and worked with his staffers for one week working on the Dietary Supplement Health and Education Act of 1994 with my uncle and Orin Hatch and his staff. The bill did pass and I have a signed letter from Orin thanking me for my work in getting the bill together. I did a ton of research and footwork for my uncle and Senator Hatch. I do have a very unique view personally how his staff and he works getting the machinery rolling to get a bill passed.
With Senator Hatch & staff writing a few articles on the web about prop replicas and regulating them, I have no doubt a rep from some studio also met with Senator Hatch and discussed the issue. It was dropped but the machine was rolling. I believe it was probably an issue of higher priority issues that caught his attention, or this would have gone much further. I doubt it was not dropped totally and his beginning efforts sits awaiting a time when some replica issue comes up in a very public manner to bring this back to the table. That "it will never happen" mentality is being blind to what has occurred already.
I assume you did catch the other real world already happened examples as well and hope you did not dismiss them.
As this board and this hobby has already been brought to the light by a Senator, several studios and the hobby itself, I assure you it is imperative that members show respect to the studios and their wishes pertaining to our actions here. Otherwise, one day that "never will it happen" senario will be law.
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So basically you just need to make something that Lucas can use to help him make more money...
Chrpica
Active Member
So basically you just need to make something that Lucas can use to help him make more money...
Exactly. Those flannel shirts aren't going to buy themselves, you know.
:lol
SaberFreak
Sr Member
I think this is exactly the difference we see here. This little 'argument' (for lack of a better word) is waged between the 'prop makers' and the 'prop collectors'. MR is good and dandy for someone who do not want to spend the time RESEARCHING & MAKING their own prop, but for those who want to feel the satisfaction and achievement of making a prop by hand, MR just don't cut it.
Same difference between people who buy, build and paint model kits, and people who buy ready-to-display models.
Over the years, I have personally shown, and tried to coax many people into the 'secret clubhouse' you speak of, and most of them turn around and say to me "I have to MAKE them myself??? No thanks!"
Prop building as an art is dead, or dying at best...:unsure
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darthgordon
Sr Member
That's not true. Just b/c there are companies that will make and sell props to the market, doesn't mean that anyone can't build thier own. Doing it b/c you enjoy doing it and want something you can be proud to display is different than trying to build a bunch of them and to sell for a 90% mark up.
Like you mentioned, some people want to buy all ready built models, and some want to build them themselves. Model kits are not going anywhere and neither will prop building.
Keep doing it b/c you enjoy it. Don't let the market influence or stop you from doing it.
Like you mentioned, some people want to buy all ready built models, and some want to build them themselves. Model kits are not going anywhere and neither will prop building.
Keep doing it b/c you enjoy it. Don't let the market influence or stop you from doing it.
I do think we've been through a slight slump in the hobby over the last year or so and perhaps there are fewer people making things now, but the quality and skill of those that still do make things is reaching staggering heights. We've even got several working industry pro's openly contributing!
Raffles
Sr Member
Prop making is certainly not dead, perhaps a bit less popular since the advent of cgi but until actors are replaced and computer programmers become more creative, practical props, models and concept pieces are going to be needed. A good example of this is the theatre. Trust me if props were not as popular it wouldn't be so hard to get a job over here!:lol
As far as the MR vs fan made argument goes, I have to say that MR's "versions" of light sabers were of a very high standard with not too much delays and production problems. Only problem that they've been having is that the price meant that only serious collectors of props could afford them so once they all had one the market seriously dried up, not dead but as good as for production costs. They made, as far as I can tell, all the major, most popular sabers from the movies and a few variants aside they've pretty much came to the end of all viability for this piece of the license.Who knows maybe they just wanted to leave the light sabers out this time and LFL didn't like the idea? The fan made replicas are just that, made individually, by hand, with a lot of care and research, no ore than a few at a time. Price wise you really got what you paid for on these. That lets people have what MR was lacking, choice. If you were happy with a not too accurate saber then you could pick one up for the price it was worth. MR couldn't afford to manufacture different pieces on the scale that their factories required also it may have impacted the sales of more expensive pieces. Don post and now Rubies, both holders of LFL licenses to make helmets and costumes offered a choice of a "good enough" copy for casual collectors and costumers, a "Classic action", still affordable for costuming but of a better size and quality, many of these items were cast off of screen moulds, and "Deluxe" items that could be worn but were really intended for display. MR's options started pricey and went up for different editions.
Onto the helmets. There have been a lot of issues with quality, damage, paintjobs, delivery, plaques etc. that have put a lot of collectors off. The release schedule on these also was a bit of a problem with MR bringing out less popular helmets and repaints of existing models before the items that everyone wanted (Fett, Stormtrooper, X-wing etc.). Leaving anyone who wanted one of these to display with either a long, long wait or getting hold of a fan made helmet. For the price of most of the MR helmets you could get the BEST fan made helmet out there. Admittedly most fan made kits do cost extra to be painted but this only brings them to a comparable price. I think that the main reason for purchasing a MR helmet is just that, it is a MR helmet. The collector can have them bought and on the shelf within the week (barring any problems), that is quite unusual for fan made's. Again their policy on one standard model has hurt them a lot with many people opting for the Rubies Supreme models or 2nd hand or recast Don post helmets for costuming, as these helmets are vastly cheaper, more easily modifiable and easier to wear than the MR models.
MR's other pieces, blasters, thermal det's etc, are usually of a very high and quite accurate standard but the one standard means tat a lot of collectors and costumers stick with fan made. If you are keeping it in a case then it doesn't matter what it is made of as long as it looks good. Likewise if you are costuming then weight and durability are the key deciders in purchasing a replica.
As for the accuracy in MR's prop pieces I for one do not buy the "idealized" line. Why? Copyright. LFL does not hold the copyrights for Graflex (Sakai Tokushu Camera Co. Ltd), Sterling (BAE Systems Land and Armaments) and other parts with copyrighted markings and stamps.
I definitely think that MR has raised the bar as far as accuracy goes on some projects, the falcon for example. But an almost suicidal release schedule has put a lot of people off dealing with them, if a company like fine molds can, with great accuracy, start with the most popular and work their way on at a very affordable price for the scale (they pay license fees too remember!) why couldn't MR?
Well anyway, MR was really one of the first companies that made reasonably accurate props for the mass market and since then their have been several new companies. Maybe one of these will learn from MR's mistakes and we'll have a new era of accurate, affordable, easy to obtain collectible props..............Until LFL get bored of them...:rolleyes
As far as the MR vs fan made argument goes, I have to say that MR's "versions" of light sabers were of a very high standard with not too much delays and production problems. Only problem that they've been having is that the price meant that only serious collectors of props could afford them so once they all had one the market seriously dried up, not dead but as good as for production costs. They made, as far as I can tell, all the major, most popular sabers from the movies and a few variants aside they've pretty much came to the end of all viability for this piece of the license.Who knows maybe they just wanted to leave the light sabers out this time and LFL didn't like the idea? The fan made replicas are just that, made individually, by hand, with a lot of care and research, no ore than a few at a time. Price wise you really got what you paid for on these. That lets people have what MR was lacking, choice. If you were happy with a not too accurate saber then you could pick one up for the price it was worth. MR couldn't afford to manufacture different pieces on the scale that their factories required also it may have impacted the sales of more expensive pieces. Don post and now Rubies, both holders of LFL licenses to make helmets and costumes offered a choice of a "good enough" copy for casual collectors and costumers, a "Classic action", still affordable for costuming but of a better size and quality, many of these items were cast off of screen moulds, and "Deluxe" items that could be worn but were really intended for display. MR's options started pricey and went up for different editions.
Onto the helmets. There have been a lot of issues with quality, damage, paintjobs, delivery, plaques etc. that have put a lot of collectors off. The release schedule on these also was a bit of a problem with MR bringing out less popular helmets and repaints of existing models before the items that everyone wanted (Fett, Stormtrooper, X-wing etc.). Leaving anyone who wanted one of these to display with either a long, long wait or getting hold of a fan made helmet. For the price of most of the MR helmets you could get the BEST fan made helmet out there. Admittedly most fan made kits do cost extra to be painted but this only brings them to a comparable price. I think that the main reason for purchasing a MR helmet is just that, it is a MR helmet. The collector can have them bought and on the shelf within the week (barring any problems), that is quite unusual for fan made's. Again their policy on one standard model has hurt them a lot with many people opting for the Rubies Supreme models or 2nd hand or recast Don post helmets for costuming, as these helmets are vastly cheaper, more easily modifiable and easier to wear than the MR models.
MR's other pieces, blasters, thermal det's etc, are usually of a very high and quite accurate standard but the one standard means tat a lot of collectors and costumers stick with fan made. If you are keeping it in a case then it doesn't matter what it is made of as long as it looks good. Likewise if you are costuming then weight and durability are the key deciders in purchasing a replica.
As for the accuracy in MR's prop pieces I for one do not buy the "idealized" line. Why? Copyright. LFL does not hold the copyrights for Graflex (Sakai Tokushu Camera Co. Ltd), Sterling (BAE Systems Land and Armaments) and other parts with copyrighted markings and stamps.
I definitely think that MR has raised the bar as far as accuracy goes on some projects, the falcon for example. But an almost suicidal release schedule has put a lot of people off dealing with them, if a company like fine molds can, with great accuracy, start with the most popular and work their way on at a very affordable price for the scale (they pay license fees too remember!) why couldn't MR?
Well anyway, MR was really one of the first companies that made reasonably accurate props for the mass market and since then their have been several new companies. Maybe one of these will learn from MR's mistakes and we'll have a new era of accurate, affordable, easy to obtain collectible props..............Until LFL get bored of them...:rolleyes
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Eagle
Sr Member
Well, in all fairness, some people don't have the time to research and build stuff... we're busy professionals.
I don't think it is. We lowlife 'collectors' keep it alive. Without us, the industry would be screwed.
SaberFreak
Sr Member
Are you saying those of us who like to build our own props are jobless slobs? FYI I have my own business and i work 12-16 hours a day.
Eeerrr...how does 'collectors' keep the 'prop building' alive? If you don't build then you don't contribute to the resource. I'm talking about people who build primarily for themselves, not to sell. There's a difference there.I don't think it is. We lowlife 'collectors' keep it alive. Without us, the industry would be screwed.
Eagle
Sr Member
Well, of course not...
We don't keep people employed by buying things?... I spend countless $000s per year on comissions.
Collectors and builders go hand-in-hand - you can't have one without the other.
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Darth Detroit
Sr Member
So basically you just need to make something that Lucas can use to help him make more money...
Exactly! George Lucas is ALll about making a dollar. And he knows how to do it.
Yep, bottom line, it is about the dollars. And in this case, the fans as well as it is a super balancing act. Let your fans have fun and at the same time promote the franchise. C4 is definately about the fans, and there is money to be made (hopefully). I would not knock it, it is probably what saves this hobby. As long as there is aviable market that supports the hobby and makes it more stable as an income source, you probably w ill not see those laws go through.
With so many prop repplica companies coming out, the lesson of Paramount is not lost on the studios either. It s only when the piracy has an impact, (yes, that is how this is viewed) will you see the legislation most likely rear its ugly head.
Best thing we can do is to support the manufacturers. I don't think that means you have to petition for them, the market should take care if itself to some extent. Hopefull the same demands that alllowed for MR to be created, will also allow for another company to come along that fulfills the demands that prop collectors are looking to now and in the future.
With so many prop repplica companies coming out, the lesson of Paramount is not lost on the studios either. It s only when the piracy has an impact, (yes, that is how this is viewed) will you see the legislation most likely rear its ugly head.
Best thing we can do is to support the manufacturers. I don't think that means you have to petition for them, the market should take care if itself to some extent. Hopefull the same demands that alllowed for MR to be created, will also allow for another company to come along that fulfills the demands that prop collectors are looking to now and in the future.
cayman shen
Master Member
I just can't see how MR making props kept others from making them themselves. How did they damage the hobby? If anything, they gave us great practical reference to be able to reproduce these props for years to come without relying on grainy MOM photos and so on.
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