Obi ANH Pommel Cap--any new info.?

[lonepigeon]

I played around with the pic and I'm still thinking the cap is there.
I will rough up something later if I get time.
The short explanation is that the pommel is reflecting something dark in front and to the left (Obi-Wan's right). It may be buildings or the camera crew. The sun is just above the building tops (or whatever it is) keeping them in very dark silhoette. If they were out in the flat desert the entire top of the pommel would be bright.
This much is pretty obvious upon close examination and it explains why the top of the pommel and the face of the left pommel cube are almost black. That alone doesn't prove a cap, but it does explain the lighting. Without the large structure reflection there would be a long highlight down into the empty pommel if the cap was missing (like in Howard's pic).

There's another lighting discrepancy that makes me think the cap is there, but I'll need to explain that with a diagram.

 

[Killdozer]

<div class='quotetop'>(Howard @ Aug 18 2006, 03:17 PM) [snapback]1303122[/snapback]</div>

Here's a quick and dirty comp pic - sorry for the colour.
Top is a replica without the cap, followed by the same replica with the cap.

If the cap was present in the location picture it would have a highlight on its raised edge at the 8 O'Clock (roughly.) position.

Howard.
[/b]

I think it's interesting to note (if not conclusive) that in Howard's lower pic, there's a light reflective area in the 8 o'clock area, and that the rest of the cap is quite dark... imperically speaking, this is closer to the production photo than Howard's "uncapped" photo.

Also, the pommel cubes appear rightside up in the main photo, but the top of the "tube" doesn't appear to have the large radiused area of the rightside up handwheel.

Chris is right about the angle of the sun... it's way low in the full photo.

Just keeping people talking...

KD

 

[Serafino]

The large radiused area is the top piece, which can't be anywhere but where it goes however the cubes are oriented. It is a cool thing that the cubes were right side up during Tunisia (instead of upside down as in the Chronicles pic), I noticed that on the Obituary pic back in the old days.

I'd gladly bet money on this one, I am really dumbfounded there's any disagreement here.

 

[Sporak]

I lightened Howards pic a little and it brought forth a few interesting lines in the pic.
For whatever it's worth.

Yes and while true, where's the highlight in the 2 o'clock position?
That one is quite obvious in the uncapped pic.

<div class='quotetop'>(Killdozer @ Aug 19 2006, 01:41 PM) [snapback]1303561[/snapback]</div>

I think it's interesting to note (if not conclusive) that in Howard's lower pic, there's a light reflective area in the 8 o'clock area, and that the rest of the cap is quite dark... imperically speaking, this is closer to the production photo than Howard's "uncapped" photo.

KD
[/b]

 

[Serafino]

Thanks Sporak. A picture is worth a thousand words of course, particularly in this sort of debate. You have nicely shown further details of how the shapes in that area correspond exactly with what is inside the handwheel.

But for those who are affected by the light interior in Howard's 'uncapped' photo, and the dark reflection in his 'capped' photo, please keep in mind that the sun is extremely low in the Tatooine picture, thus throwing the interior of the 'hole' into relative shadow. Recall that photos taken in sunlight have extremely high contrast, and see how this is confirmed in the shadows of the Tatooine photo.

Also note that the lighting in Howard's pictures is from multiple sources and higher relative to the handwheel, so of course it would light up the interior in the uncapped photo.

Lastly, there is simply no way that a cap in that position could not be reflecting part of Obi's robe and the clip, these would absolutely show along the top edge of the cap. At that angle the cap would reflect the robe immediately behind it on the left, the clip vertically aligned and foreshortened in the middle (because seen from 'below'), and the shadow area of robe on the right. If the belt appeared at all it would be a black area curving along the middle or bottom of the cap.

All it takes to see how such reflections work for yourself is to take a spoon and a butter knife and hold them up at the same angle against a light area with some details on it so you can see where they reflect. The lightbulb should go on for you at that point.

 

[lonepigeon]

If the sun is so low that it is lighting the inside edge of the handwheel with no cap then why is there a highlight on the top of the outer edge? (At about 3 o'clock right where the red arrow points)
Why is that edge highlight lower than the highlight supposedly on the inside of the uncapped handwheel?
A highlight which is on a higher surface should be above the inside highlight (if there at all because that surface is actually curving away from the light source - which is why it is not in Howard's pic).

The cap is convex so most of it's surface is facing away from Obi-Wan and his robe. These would be reflected on the back half of the cap most of which is not even visible in the pic. Any Obi reflections would be behind the reflection of the sky and the highlight in question.

I will post a pic or two to illustrate what I mean, but I want to actually shoot something outside at the right time of day so it might be day or two.

 

[Serafino]

Okay, my battery died before I could get the 'cap off' photos done, and the lighting is imperfect, but here's a start anyway. First I will try to answer Chris' thoughts.

<div class='quotetop'>(lonepigeon @ Aug 20 2006, 02:32 PM) [snapback]1304096[/snapback]</div>

If the sun is so low that it is lighting the inside edge of the handwheel with no cap then why is there a highlight on the top of the outer edge? (At about 3 o'clock right where the red arrow points)
[/b]

The highlight is large enough that most likely the sun was diffused through some clouds on the horizon, or concievably the primary light source is actually a huge reflector, but that seems exceedingly unlikely. The outer edge highlight is more on the side than the top of that curve. I think the discrepancy you're talking about is a result of a large light source reflecting from surfaces which are at slightly different angles, which a large enough light can do. I will try to show this effect tomorrow once I've got batteries again.

Chris I'm not understanding your next comment well enough to comment so I'll skip to this one:

<div class='quotetop'>(lonepigeon @ Aug 20 2006, 02:32 PM) [snapback]1304096[/snapback]</div>

The cap is convex so most of it's surface is facing away from Obi-Wan and his robe. These would be reflected on the back half of the cap most of which is not even visible in the pic. Any Obi reflections would be behind the reflection of the sky and the highlight in question.
[/b]

The cap is slightly convex, but it is nearly flat. All but the far edge of the cap would be visible, as I think you'll see in my picture. Although I haven't got a 'belt' in the picture, I think it shows clearly that Obi's reflection would fill the entire cap. That towel is on a seat back and rises only about 14" above the handwheel. Above that is the darkness of a high ceiling, which is visible as a black bar above and to the right of the outer edge highlight at 'A'. And anyway my "belt clip" is only about 3-4" long and yet its reflection goes all the way across the cap.

I hope this photo will also help illustrate that any light reflected on the outside edge at 'A' will also be picked up by the edge of the cap at 'B'--this HAS to happen because the curve of the cap edge includes the same angles which are reflecting the highlight at 'A', and the cap is slightly raised so this rounded edge is exposed to the primary light source.

Note that 'C' cannot reflect the strong light, but only reflects the towel immediately behind it.

[Edited to clarify comments on the sun.]

 

[Howard]

<div class='quotetop'>(Serafino @ Aug 20 2006, 09:10 PM) [snapback]1304069[/snapback]</div>

Also note that the lighting in Howard's pictures is from multiple sources and higher relative to the handwheel, so of course it would light up the interior in the uncapped photo.

[/b]

Quite correct.
Three bright halogen bulbs to be exact.

Howard.

 

[franz bolo]

I bought this poster of Obi-wan a while back. I was looking at it just now. It is totally obvious from the original that the cap is off.

If your only using the picture Serafino posted or the sink knob replica that Howard posted, there could be a debate, but if you have the poster and a real sink knob, you can clearly see from the details in the photo that the cap is definitely off.

On the left side, you can see the interior (shelf) and deeper inside the knob you can see the inside protrusion ring. I also did a light test with and without the cap and it came out just like the photo.

It's physically impossible to have that strong of a highlight at the back of the sink knob with the cap on.

You can see where the sun is located if you look at R2D2's eye. It's pretty low.

FB

 

[Serafino]

FB true, I should have posted this earlier but I wanted to make sure it was the same shot first, I only pulled out my poster today to check:

A bit elongated, but that's the image.

Here are my comparisons FWIW. To get the full effect would require duplicating the original lighting with a large sun-based light source like clouds on the horizon. Or, now that I think about it, perhaps just a long lens/more distant viewpoint.

The interiors of the top piece on original handwheels, especially at the bottom, are not well polished and chromed, it's more of a matte texture, often with brass showing. As FB says, you can see all the details of the interior in the Tunisia photo, and the features don't match what would be seen if the cap was there at all.

Here the blue is heightened so that the 'belt' reflection can be seen along the top of the rim of the top piece, it doesn't show on the cap at all. Yes I placed the 'belt standin' a bit too high, and it is straight instead of curved around a belly