New Vader Helmet on the Market

Discussion in 'Star Wars Costumes and Props' started by Supa troop, Apr 1, 2012.

  1. Supa troop

    Supa troop Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    First there was Stormtroopers, followed by an array of other Helmets and the E11, then there was R2-D2 well now AA aka SDS are making and selling Vader Helmets.

    Looks to me a lot like DP but il leave this to the Vader experts to mull over

    [​IMG]

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  2. KaanE

    KaanE Sr Member

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    Price?
     
  3. steveo

    steveo Sr Member

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    I just don't even understand how he won this battle. It's ridiculous.
     
  4. CSMacLaren

    CSMacLaren Sr Member

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    A DP could be quite easily modified to look like that. But regardless, this is Andrew Ainsworth, the one who tried to usurp the role of Liz Moore, the lady who sculpted the original stormtrooper, so as to boost his own sales claiming that he was the original sculptor. The question is, do you want your money to empower and make rich a man who would take advantage of the death of a sculptor and claim her contributions to the Star Wars phenomenon as his very own?
     
  5. KaanE

    KaanE Sr Member

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    I didn't ask price because I like it nor I'm going to buy it but because his prices for **** products are even higger than eFX's God props.
     
  6. ob1al

    ob1al Sr Member

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    The detail on the dome looks really soft, and the dome placement doesn't help but something about the shape of the dome looks off to my eye.

    The faceplate is interesting. I don't see any of the warpage present on the DP Deluxe masks but I'd be interested to learn the source for both dome and faceplate. Or are they both "from the original molds"? ;)
     
  7. jme3

    jme3 Sr Member

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    This man is a piece of work...
     
  8. Tom1971

    Tom1971 Sr Member

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    Something about his Stormy just looks off.
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2012
  9. Tom1971

    Tom1971 Sr Member

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    Can someone fill me in on this?

    I just read everything on his website and it seems like he proved his case but I know most here feel he is not in the right.

    His Stormys just look wrong but I'm curious about the back story. The court transcript about the sculpts seems to back up his case.

    Can anyone fill me in?
     
  10. Too Much Garlic

    Too Much Garlic Master Member

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    Actually... the judge called him a liar and stealer of credit... so not much backing up his cause. He just seems to have "won" due to the technicality that movie props was ruled as industrial designs and their copyright only lasts 15 years, making ANYONE in the UK able to make props from ANY movie older than 15 years without the need of a license.
     
  11. Tom1971

    Tom1971 Sr Member

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    Reading his version he was given a clay mold by his friend, not the studios, and he made the actual mold and helmets plus armor. Would that not make them his?

    Not trying to start anything. Just looking for facts.

    Many in the prop community seem to side with Lucas even though many a Star Wars fan are not fans of Lucas himself.

    I am just wondering why most have come down on Lucas' side.

    I listened to Lucas talking about how he designed Jabba for ROTJ and neglected to mention he had nothing to do with it and did not say a word about the two men who actually designed it plus the whole team who built Jabba.

    Lucas does tend to use the word I a lot and rarely mentions others.

    This guy may be a bad guy but I would like to know why.
     
  12. Tom1971

    Tom1971 Sr Member

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    Realy not trying to defend this guy Just want to know the facts.

    Maybe someone can point me in the direction of old posted info.
     
  13. Too Much Garlic

    Too Much Garlic Master Member

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    Yes, his version is his delusion - not close to reality.

    I didn't side with Lucas. I sided with the actual sculptors - Brian Muir and Liz Moore - whose work he is stealing credit for.

    If you want the truth, this is the place to find it: Log In | Facebook
     
  14. Tom1971

    Tom1971 Sr Member

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    Very interesting read. The Alien stuff is sad as is the paragraph 15 to 21 stuff.

    That's too bad. To be honest I would not mind Lucas being taken down a few pegs. I always felt he took and got much more credit than he deserved.

    Too bad this guy is not honest. I would love to see an honest person take on Lucas and win.

    Thanks for the link.
     
  15. zorg

    zorg Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    woohoo, who wants a robby the robot?!
     
  16. CSMacLaren

    CSMacLaren Sr Member

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    See, in my mind, this guy will stop at nothing to claw his way to the top in the minds of unsuspecting fans. Ainsworth even pirated GF's stormtrooper suit while still claiming his "original molds" sales pitch.

    Liz Moore and Brian Muir (Brian is the sculptor of Darth Vader) are the original Stormtrooper sculptors.

    Don't believe the fairytale marketing pitch of these unscrupulous vendors. If people are so sold on his stories that they want an Ainsworth Vader that badly, I'll provide it to them at a huge price cut. I have a secret source, an original mold.... Okay, I'll come clean: I can modify a Don Post Deluxe and make it pretty much identical, but I'd rather not as the details are too soft on the Ainsworth and I prefer my prop buddies to have something nicer.
     
  17. jme3

    jme3 Sr Member

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    I've been as critical of George Lucas in recent times as anyone else, but the entire concept of Star Wars is his, like it or not - Darth Vader, Stormtroopers, Yoda, R2, 3PO, Ben Kenobi, Luke, Leia, the Millennium Falcon, the Tie Fighters and X-Wings, the Death Star, Yavin, Dagobah, Tatooine, the Star Destroyers, et al. He commissioned many, many people for their artistic and technical talents to enable HIS vision to come to the screen, but they were PAID for their work, their talent, their contributions, and their artistic interpretations, and those works essentially became his property through remuneration. That a court in the U.K. has deemed the resulting work to have expired after a period of time seems no doubt to have been a boon to the enterprising likes of Andrew Ainsworth, with whatever axe he has to grind with GL, but it still strikes me as being very, very wrong, and contemptible to say the least...
     
  18. Clutch

    Clutch Master Member

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    Just don't post about it here. :lol
     
  19. Onigiri

    Onigiri Sr Member

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    God I despise this dirtbag.
     
  20. jme3

    jme3 Sr Member

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    :unsure:thumbsup
     
  21. Tom1971

    Tom1971 Sr Member

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    I think that's fair. I just always felt he took all the credit for Star Wars and Indy.

    When he is calling all the shots we see the result. They are called prequels.


    But that does not give this guy the right. The Alien stuff killed me.

    It's too bad.
     
  22. jme3

    jme3 Sr Member

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    Yep, you're right.

    Let's say you visit an architectural firm to help you realize your vision of the perfect house. You see the artistic likes of Ralph McQuarrie and Andrew Ainsworth and Liz Moore and Dennis Murren and Phil Tippet and Joe Johnston and many, many more who help you realize YOUR vision of what makes the perfect house. And then you pay them their requisite salaries to help you realize YOUR vision, and years later, you're driving down Mulholland Drive (or wherever else) and see a house EXACTLY like the one you paid them handsomely for, belonging to someone else! What would be your thoughts?



     
  23. Clutch

    Clutch Master Member

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    He should be releasing A L I E N related merchandise soon. :lol
     
  24. Tom1971

    Tom1971 Sr Member

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    Holy crap they have good taste. These are people with style!! :lol:lol

    I did not defend this guy in any way. I was just asking about what led up to all of it as I had never bothered to read up on it.

    As far as Lucas goes using your example when people came to my home and went on and on about it I would not take sole credit. I would give credit where it is due.

    If someone wanted to turn that house into a design to sell I would not take all the money. I would spread it around with those who created it. Okay Houses don't work like that but you get my point.

    I'm not sure how well these people were paid. I have not read to many stories about old George sharing the wealth, however I really don't pay that much attention so I may be way off on that.

    But there is no doubt in interviews I have seen he has never once mentioned how hard anyone else worked or contributed. It's just I this and I that.


    In my collection I have a little Jawa in front on me. It is simply one of the best, if not the best Jawa I have seen.

    If you see it and say,"Wow Tom that is the best Jawa I have ever seen!" How big of an AS*#@^$ would I be if I said, "Thanks" without mentioning I had nothing to do with it, other than finishing the mannequin, and that it is all the hard work of Marcus/Kurtyboy and I was just fortunate enough to get to buy it.

    Ainsworth looks to be a liar and credit stealer. Honestly I have always felt George was too.

    IMO.
     
  25. Tom1971

    Tom1971 Sr Member

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    But seriously, just shooting the breeze.
     
  26. Tom1971

    Tom1971 Sr Member

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    BTW that helmet up there is not near as nice as the Don Post Deluxe. I am looking at mint #45 I was lucky enough to get. I know it's really nice, crisp, clean and looks good so it's not what people want in a Vader these days. Sorry, could not resist, but it is gorgeous and much nicer than this offering.
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2012
  27. jme3

    jme3 Sr Member

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    Well, I'd really love to see that Jawa!! :lol

    And, I've read that George has always been generous with the royalties...! :p
     
  28. Tom1971

    Tom1971 Sr Member

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    David Prowse might disagree. :behave

    But seriously I have no idea.


    Here ya go. I took these the other day to show off my new Vibro Axe I'm offering and thought I would have some fun. Looks even better in person but you get the idea. I don't know why but for some of my stuff I can't get a good pic. They often don't look as good as they do in person. Close but not quite as good:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  29. Dpp1978

    Dpp1978 Well-Known Member

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    The way he tells it on his site you'd think the court decided 100% in his favour. It didn't.

    Lucasfilm had to win on both the facts and on any legal points. LFL won overwhelmingly on the facts except on one ultimately minor point (from a legal perspective, although a major point from a moral perspective) which was who made a certain clay sculpture seen in one photograph.

    It came down to the testimony of Liz Moore's partner at the time, who stated she never used "red" clay to sculpt. As the sculpture appeared reddish in the photo the judge, in his capacity as arbiter of facts, decided that according to the civil standard of proof it was more likely that AA's partner: Nick Pemberton made it.

    What you have to understand about the standard of proof in civil cases is it is quite low. It isn't the same as the criminal standard: beyond reasonable doubt, it is far less onerous. It is on the "balance of probabilities". That means if you can show it was even a fraction of a percent more likely to have happened one way than another you will win the point.

    As I stated earlier the point was actually a minor point legally. It wasn't fatal to LFL's case so it wasn't pursued in any great depth. It was one of those points where it would have been nice to have won but not worth going overboard to do so. Ultimately it made little difference as LFL won on the facts anyway.

    The judge stated that any rights which were capable of existing were the property of LFL under basic contract law. Any rights AA may have accrued he was contractually obliged to assign to LFL as a worker for hire.

    When AA posts on his site that all the courts in England sided with him it is a massive overstatement of what was actually the case. But that seems in keeping with AA's character.

    In para 19 of the High Court judgment the judge states, "He has clearly demonstrated that he is prepared to claim more than he is entitled to ... I have to bear that firmly in mind in considering his claims in relation to the designs in issue in this case". He goes on to state in para 21, "All these factors, and other challenges made to his credibility during the case, make me approach Mr Ainsworth's evidence with a great deal of caution."

    You can read the full transcript here:

    Lucasfilm Ltd & Ors v Ainsworth & Anor [2008] EWHC 1878 (Ch) (31 July 2008)

    Paras 15 to 21 are the ones in question. As Too Much Garlic has observed the judge really wasn't impressed with AA's version of events.

    Wher LFL's case fell down was on a point of law.

    English law on this area was frankly a mess. What Judge Mann did was actually a remarkable piece of legal work. He took all the contradictory, fragmented strands of authority and formed them into a sensible and coherent set of guidelines.

    However when applying the test he had conceived he found that the Stormtrooper helmet was not a work of sculpture and was purely utilitarian in nature.

    Therefore copyright did not attach to it and the design rights which did exist (which were the lawful property of LFL: not AA) expired 15 years after the design was first commercially exploited.

    That was a devastating blow to LFL's case which was argued all the was to the highest court in the land. AA won on a technicality of English law not on the merits of his version of the facts.

    It was this legal point which was the basis of the appeal. Who sculpted the "red clay Stormtrooper" ceased to be an issue of any legal standing when it was held that who sculpted it, be it Liz Moore, Nick Pemberton, Father Christmas or my as yet unborn self, was legally immaterial as all rights vested in LFL. That point was never brought up in appeal.

    What LFL had to show to win the appeal was that the judge erred in his interpretation and application of the law.

    The court of appeal held the test Judge Mann had conceived was sound, and his interpretation and application of it was reasonable. Thus the appellate courts had to dismiss the appeal.

    If the law is sound they will only put aside a trial judges decision if it is what is known as "Wednesbury unreasonable". That is one no reasonable judge could have ever come to. Thus while we may not approve of it, nevertheless it must stand.

    As a personal aside I have no doubt who made the "red clay Stormtrooper". I have read discourse on these boards on the subject which looked at the issue in far greater depth that it was ever looked at by the court and can only conclude that the late Liz Moore was indeed the artist who made Ralph McQuarries design tangible. That AA would try to steal her credit says more about the man than anything any judgment made in any court could ever say. Maybe he is delusional and believes his own spin? I'm certainly not qualified to say.

    I'm not nearly so convinced that is what the judgment says.

    The important part of the case is the legal test, and all that states is that when deciding if something is sculpture or not one has to look at the purpose the sculptor had in mind when creating the work.

    The Stormtrooper wasn't sculpture but that doesn't automatically mean Vader's mask can't be.

    All one would have to do would be to convince the judge that when sculpting the clay original, when moulding it, casting it and refining it those who worked on it did so in the intention it should in itself be a work of art, not just a component part of a greater work. The test would be satisfied and copyright would attach.

    Maybe the man's hubris will catch up with him yet. He can't claim any tenuous links to owning the copyright on this one, although it wouldn't surprise me if he were to try.

    Sorry for the length of this post, but this case was the reason I found this place, and it has fascinated me from the outset. I hope it is of some worth to any who choose to read it.
     
  30. Tom1971

    Tom1971 Sr Member

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    That was awesome. I won't pretend I understood it all but you did a great job explaining it.

    If your not already in Law you should be.

    So is he lying about having the original molds as well or is that part true?
     
  31. Tom1971

    Tom1971 Sr Member

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    He does a great (dishonest) job on his page explaining his side. It is very selective and convincing if you don't know who to ask.
     
  32. Too Much Garlic

    Too Much Garlic Master Member

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    From what people who know more has said, that is not true either. He may have had formed shells that he made new molds from, but not workable original molds.
     
  33. jme3

    jme3 Sr Member

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    Hey,

    Thanks for posting the photo! Sorry so late getting back to you on this...

    Very cool Jawa and vibroaxe (and background collection as well)! I've got all the parts for a jawa assembled but lack any connections to someone with sewing skills to get the robe done right... A jawa is high on my priority list.

    And yeah, I think David Prowse may have his own views of GL, but I dare say he helped to dig his own grave on that. But I have indeed heard GL was generous with points or residuals or whatever the terminoligy is in the movie industry for compensating his actors at least. As for the other talent behind the movies, I don't know about that. I'm really thinking that Andrew Ainsworth, though, was scratched from GL's history books a while ago!


     
  34. Tom1971

    Tom1971 Sr Member

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    I feel bad for Prowse. I know there is a whole histroy there and he has his version. I'm sure Lucas has a reason for claiming Jedi has yet to make money, but...

    I still feel bad for him. I don't think he got enough credit or money for the sucess of this thing and as cool as I think Sebastion Shaw looked at the end of Jedi, especially since the idea was to see a sad old man instead of a mean, hard looking guy, like you were expecting, but it would have been better to have it be Prowse regardless.

    I just think regardless of what happened Prowse should have been given that.

    But back to topic how is Ainsworth claiming any connection to Vader?
     
  35. Too Much Garlic

    Too Much Garlic Master Member

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    He doesn't need one... so I doubt he'll even waste time on that.
     
  36. jme3

    jme3 Sr Member

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    He has none. I think it's just sour grapes at this point. And he's gone well out of his way to prove what a connoisseur of crap he really is...
     
  37. Too Much Garlic

    Too Much Garlic Master Member

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    Just seems like a business strategy. Why settle for only those he can make a half-assed claim to, when he is free to do everything due to the court case, without having to waste time on making up stories of how he built this and that and basically saved Star Wars being made with all his work and ideas and skills and making everything happen.

    Delusions of grandeur one might say... greedy opportunist someone else might say... lowlife credit stealer a third might say... but... it's all of the above.
     
  38. Tom1971

    Tom1971 Sr Member

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    To bad everyone buying from him does not know the whole story. My guess is as many fans are not very happy with Lucas they are just happy to buy from someone who beat him.


    George has lightened up in the last few years and allowed people to play, as he knew he could not stop them, like fan films, but boy back in the day George was ubber sue happy.

    Well I'm glad I asked.
     
  39. defstartrooper

    defstartrooper Sr Member

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    ........
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2012
  40. Brian Muir

    Brian Muir Well-Known Member

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  41. Tom1971

    Tom1971 Sr Member

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    The one and only Brian Muir is a member here. That is so cool.

    You must really dislike Ainsworth.
     
  42. CSMacLaren

    CSMacLaren Sr Member

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    For Ainsworth, recasting = sculpting. :behave
     
  43. CSMacLaren

    CSMacLaren Sr Member

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    I'd like to think any decent human being who values character and integrity dislikes Ainsworth for taking advantage of the unsuspecting public.
     
  44. Tom1971

    Tom1971 Sr Member

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    I agree. I think Mr. Muir however would have an exceptional dislike for him as would any of the original artists.
     
  45. Tom1971

    Tom1971 Sr Member

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    I hate when people talk about "the good old days" because they really were not that great, however there is one thing I miss and that's actual props, molds, costumes. The clones were one of the few things I liked about the evils, sorry prequels. I really just would have liked to see actual costumes on actual actors sculpted by actual artists. CG is great for the thousands but a few real ones would have been cool.

    A few years from now some computer guy will be suing Lucas saying he designed the computer image of the clones he is now trying to sell at his own studio.
     

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