Exactly I think he found it insulting
New Elstree Studio documentary with discarded Graflex.
- Thread starter Skelatorious
- Start date
Exactly I think he found it insulting
I thought it was a aluminum core in the dv6, your saying you see a washer?
GINO
Sr Member
I think it's very possible that there were only 3 belt hanger sabers made for ANH. 1 Luke, 1 Obi, and 1 Vader.
Not counting the ones specifically made for bladed dueling scenes. For ANH there just weren't any duplicates (in terms of just backups) of props made. I can't think of one example except for R2 and 3po (but there were specific reason for them).
I don't think we can take as fact that there were 3 luke sabers made. Just like Vader helmets, I don't believe there were 3 of those made for ANH either.
I don't think they went back and got more graflexes until Empire when they knew they were going to need a lot more for all the screen time and shot descriptions (action).
The top portion at least looks to be the start of a dueling conversion the same way the Luke/Vader shared stunt is.
Could it have been the actual one from ANH that got put back into the mix for conversion? Perhaps.
It's possible we could be looking at the original ANH bottom and clamp here. Just impossible to definitively say.
Parts of the original ANH could have also just been turned into one of the ESB heroes just as easily, as we know they did that for a lot of the hero ANH props. They just gave them a "refresh" for ESB and reused them.
Keep in mind, there are 3 parts to a graflex and any of those 3 components could have been swapped out or interchanged at any time for one reason or another.
My theory is this. I think we might be looking at the original ANH bottom and clamp with a different top that was the start of a stunt conversion. But with all the new graflexes purchased for use in ESB, they just made new heroes out of those while the ANH became a guinea pig for the shared stunts.
Not counting the ones specifically made for bladed dueling scenes. For ANH there just weren't any duplicates (in terms of just backups) of props made. I can't think of one example except for R2 and 3po (but there were specific reason for them).
I don't think we can take as fact that there were 3 luke sabers made. Just like Vader helmets, I don't believe there were 3 of those made for ANH either.
I don't think they went back and got more graflexes until Empire when they knew they were going to need a lot more for all the screen time and shot descriptions (action).
The top portion at least looks to be the start of a dueling conversion the same way the Luke/Vader shared stunt is.
Could it have been the actual one from ANH that got put back into the mix for conversion? Perhaps.
It's possible we could be looking at the original ANH bottom and clamp here. Just impossible to definitively say.
Parts of the original ANH could have also just been turned into one of the ESB heroes just as easily, as we know they did that for a lot of the hero ANH props. They just gave them a "refresh" for ESB and reused them.
Keep in mind, there are 3 parts to a graflex and any of those 3 components could have been swapped out or interchanged at any time for one reason or another.
My theory is this. I think we might be looking at the original ANH bottom and clamp with a different top that was the start of a stunt conversion. But with all the new graflexes purchased for use in ESB, they just made new heroes out of those while the ANH became a guinea pig for the shared stunts.
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That solid flat surface has to be a washer or something - look inside the DV6 sockets You can see the upper and middle bakelite pieces (one socket pin goes in the upper, one pin goes in the middle piece) which means the core begins deeper into the flash.
Thanks for this. The thin knurl button I thought would be a clue to it's origins, since they probably had very few of those kind of buttons
GINO raises a good point: So far as we know, a solid number of key ANH props did not have backups. There was only ONE Han Solo DL-44 hero used during filming, with the Greedo Killer quickly thrown together for post-production pickups. And apparently only one Vader helmet. One Leia Margolin-type blaster. Etc., etc. There appear to have been two Vader hero sabers (black and silver sidebars), but there also appears to have been only one Kenobi hero , since acquiring duplicates of all of those disparate parts to build more than one hero would have been a chore. It would have been much easier to machine a lookalike...which they did, with the two known stunts (V2 and V3).
And there was possibly only one Luke hero saber. We know that the production must have had access to at least five Graflexes, since various parts ended up on different props: Four clamps (Kenobi hero, V2 FX, V3, Luke FX), one Folmer thin-knurl red button (Luke FX), and at least one slightly modified full flashgun (Luke hero, likely a Folmer, but with full-knurl button replacing the stock Folmer thin-knurl). So, we can safely assume that the production may have acquired at least five flashguns, be they full or partial.
So far as we know, the only certain variation in the onscreen Luke hero saber is the placement of the upper half (which was apparently rotated for one shot, and also for the post-production photos). The prop was featured in one scene (when it’s presented to Luke in Ben’s cave), and then serves only as a belt-hanger, aside from being swapped out for the stunt FX in several shots during the remote-training sequence. It may well have been considered primarily as a costume prop (not unlike the droid callers and whatnot, which certainly didn’t have numerous backups), rather than a hand prop, since it only gets hands-on use in two scenes.
The Kenobi and Vader sabers surely got the most attention from the crew, with several FX stunt versions made to duplicate the heroes, since the sabers get a major showcase sequence during the duel.
Meanwhile, if there was really only one Luke hero saber, then it sure as heck wasn’t available for the POST-post-production Bob Seidemann publicity photos, nor the HOLIDAY SPECIAL.
The early Finse photos from ESB show a saber with seven ANH-type grips that apparently fell off from the intense cold. Was this the reworked ANH hero? Or an initial attempt to recreate the hero with a new flashgun (and some tweaks in design), which had its grips hastily replaced (and screwed on— or was it riveted?) on location?
Certainly, the production acquired a good number of flashguns for ESB, since Luke’s lightsaber is a key prop in the film that is featured in closeups and lots and lots of stuntwork, unlike ANH.
And there was possibly only one Luke hero saber. We know that the production must have had access to at least five Graflexes, since various parts ended up on different props: Four clamps (Kenobi hero, V2 FX, V3, Luke FX), one Folmer thin-knurl red button (Luke FX), and at least one slightly modified full flashgun (Luke hero, likely a Folmer, but with full-knurl button replacing the stock Folmer thin-knurl). So, we can safely assume that the production may have acquired at least five flashguns, be they full or partial.
So far as we know, the only certain variation in the onscreen Luke hero saber is the placement of the upper half (which was apparently rotated for one shot, and also for the post-production photos). The prop was featured in one scene (when it’s presented to Luke in Ben’s cave), and then serves only as a belt-hanger, aside from being swapped out for the stunt FX in several shots during the remote-training sequence. It may well have been considered primarily as a costume prop (not unlike the droid callers and whatnot, which certainly didn’t have numerous backups), rather than a hand prop, since it only gets hands-on use in two scenes.
The Kenobi and Vader sabers surely got the most attention from the crew, with several FX stunt versions made to duplicate the heroes, since the sabers get a major showcase sequence during the duel.
Meanwhile, if there was really only one Luke hero saber, then it sure as heck wasn’t available for the POST-post-production Bob Seidemann publicity photos, nor the HOLIDAY SPECIAL.
The early Finse photos from ESB show a saber with seven ANH-type grips that apparently fell off from the intense cold. Was this the reworked ANH hero? Or an initial attempt to recreate the hero with a new flashgun (and some tweaks in design), which had its grips hastily replaced (and screwed on— or was it riveted?) on location?
Certainly, the production acquired a good number of flashguns for ESB, since Luke’s lightsaber is a key prop in the film that is featured in closeups and lots and lots of stuntwork, unlike ANH.
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CHalcyon82
New Member
Y'know, I'm gonna toss out a crazy theory of my own. First off, I'll admit the flaws of it: it's partially based on Roger's statements. I'm neutral towards the guy. I don't know him and I'm not going to toss out any judgement of him. Though I would like to point out something regarding him before I state my theory and forgive me if I ramble a bit:
I do think with all of the cross-examinations of his statements and attributing motives towards his actions and etc. we're forgetting a few things: 1) This was just another job for him. I know it's easy to forget but we gotta remember that back then Star Wars wasn't STAR WARS. It was just a sci-fi film (then not really a popular genre) film being directed by a guy that only had one real success under his belt (AMERICAN GRAFFITI) and almost no one had any faith in the film prior to its release. It's easy for people to, for lack of a better term, 'retcon' their views of the production later on. "Oh, I absolutely knew this was going to be a hit!" but the truth is... for the most part no one really did. That's why I don't fault him nor attribute malice towards him or others having faulty recollections towards something that happened over 40 years ago. Let's be frank: It's was 40 bleeping years ago and bluntly this was just another job for him.
Secondly... I think I had a second point but I forgot it 'cause I took such a long time typing out the first part. XD But yeah, I'm going toss this out here: I'm going to believe Roger when he said he bought a box full of Graflex flashes. I'm also going to theorize this is where the Graflexes came from when it came time to make TESB. This was most likely also the source of Kurtz's Graflexes. I also going to toss out that Roger barely remembers a damn thing regarding making the original lightsaber. For giggles I will continue to believe him when he said that he made the first one, though.
I do think with all of the cross-examinations of his statements and attributing motives towards his actions and etc. we're forgetting a few things: 1) This was just another job for him. I know it's easy to forget but we gotta remember that back then Star Wars wasn't STAR WARS. It was just a sci-fi film (then not really a popular genre) film being directed by a guy that only had one real success under his belt (AMERICAN GRAFFITI) and almost no one had any faith in the film prior to its release. It's easy for people to, for lack of a better term, 'retcon' their views of the production later on. "Oh, I absolutely knew this was going to be a hit!" but the truth is... for the most part no one really did. That's why I don't fault him nor attribute malice towards him or others having faulty recollections towards something that happened over 40 years ago. Let's be frank: It's was 40 bleeping years ago and bluntly this was just another job for him.
Secondly... I think I had a second point but I forgot it 'cause I took such a long time typing out the first part. XD But yeah, I'm going toss this out here: I'm going to believe Roger when he said he bought a box full of Graflex flashes. I'm also going to theorize this is where the Graflexes came from when it came time to make TESB. This was most likely also the source of Kurtz's Graflexes. I also going to toss out that Roger barely remembers a damn thing regarding making the original lightsaber. For giggles I will continue to believe him when he said that he made the first one, though.
Yes, something like this, to add stabilization to the area where the stunt blade is attached. Without such stabilization, the plastic Graflex guts alone would likely shatter in filmed combat.
If that’s the top of an aluminum core that we are seeing, vs. a washer, I have a hard time understanding how the brass contact pins and sockets are still intact on the Vader stunt saber. Wouldn’t they be long gone if an aluminum core was slid into the top of the Graflex tube and the Graflex guts were removed? Or, am I not visualizing this correctly? I had assumed the guts on the Greflex were left in these stunts but drilled through to accommodate the blade mounting adaptations made to the flash.
I thought the aluminum “core” and blade set-up, seen in the Christian bonus video, were the blades used in the shared stunt (Luke / Vader) aluminum tube hilt saber but not in the Graflex hilts.
Anyway...I apologize as I am getting us off-track on this thread.
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It’s important to remember that the original film was not some big-budget, highly-scutinized film, with everything being cataloged and archived and viewed as collectibles or historic artifacts to be preserved. Lucas happened to be a packrat, and that’s the only reason why so many props, costumes, models, and other items survived. To everyone else working on the film, it was probably just a job, and the tools were disposable.
I also don’t imagine them keeping a box of Graflexes in storage until the sequel came along. There WAS no sequel, at that time. STAR WARS was just gonna be a one-off film, and, when it was over, it was over. Or so they thought. More likely that, when the sequel went into production, they simply went out and found more Graflexes, since they had the time and the budget, unlike with the HOLIDAY SPECIAL saber, which was likely thrown together at the last minute...and with the WRONG flashgun.
Christian’s stories and “prototypes” are likely the tall tales of someone who did a job which ended up being the most popular and obsessed over movie ever made, and so he no doubt wanted a piece of that pie.
I also don’t imagine them keeping a box of Graflexes in storage until the sequel came along. There WAS no sequel, at that time. STAR WARS was just gonna be a one-off film, and, when it was over, it was over. Or so they thought. More likely that, when the sequel went into production, they simply went out and found more Graflexes, since they had the time and the budget, unlike with the HOLIDAY SPECIAL saber, which was likely thrown together at the last minute...and with the WRONG flashgun.
Christian’s stories and “prototypes” are likely the tall tales of someone who did a job which ended up being the most popular and obsessed over movie ever made, and so he no doubt wanted a piece of that pie.
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CHalcyon82
New Member
Like I said, it was just a crazy theory. XD When we get down to it, we're never going to really unless some old foggy pops up and regal us with some unrevealed knowledge. 
Though I will say this: I think either theory (either they were somehow able to keep some Graflex flashes around or they went out and bought some more) is both equally viable IMHO.
Though I will say this: I think either theory (either they were somehow able to keep some Graflex flashes around or they went out and bought some more) is both equally viable IMHO.
newmagrathea
Sr Member
I'm not an expert on rivets, especially for that time period. But, my own experience is that rivets they are not applied with a hammer, but they are applied with a gun, and would leave no marks.
Pixelpiper
Well-Known Member
Pop aka blind rivets use a gun. Others can use a hammer or other tool.
They look identical to me. You can see the same indent rings form the rivet gun top on both.
Wow..... Freaky
Heh, id love for roy to compare these. I think the Mitchell saber is rocking 3mm were the wampa cave is rocking 4mm
I have been wrong in the past, just ask my ex girlfriend
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