LOTR theme ripped off from Sibelius' 3rd symphony......

Discussion in 'Entertainment and Movie Talk' started by Colin Droidmilk, Feb 13, 2012.

  1. Colin Droidmilk

    Colin Droidmilk Sr Member

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  2. DARTH SABER

    DARTH SABER Master Member

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    I noticed a very distinct LOTR que during the 8:59 mark and a few other times near the end.

    However, I just noticed that same melody is also very similar to the theme from Uncharted: drakes fortune.... Also sounded a bit like the theme from Back to the Future...and a snippet from the Conan theme.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2012
  3. Colin Droidmilk

    Colin Droidmilk Sr Member

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    The irony for me is that I never thought the LOTR soundtrack was anything special. Today I find the main theme was composed by one of my favourite classical composers, lol!

    He also wrote the first line of Sunday Girl by Blondie about a hundred years before Chris Stein got round to it. 25 secs in: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4eAsOZtkIk
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2012
  4. terryr

    terryr Sr Member

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    It happens many times. I guess composers don't think we listen to classical.

    I have a song that has the Animal House theme in it. [Brahms - Academic Festival]
     
  5. wannab

    wannab Sr Member

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    What's new?
    John Williams "borrows" all the time as well.
    If you listen to classical music you notice these things all the time.



    Doug
     
  6. CJS

    CJS Well-Known Member

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    Aliens soundtrack, alot was ripped off from Holst: The Planets, especially Mars, Bringer of war. The planets has to be one of the most copied templates for sci fi fantasy movies ever. Has awesome spacey elements to it.
     
  7. SmilingOtter

    SmilingOtter Master Member

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    Williams borrows, Horner borrows, they all borrow.

    "Concerning Hobbits" and the hymn "This is My Father's World" start almost exactly the same...
     
  8. b26354

    b26354 Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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  9. Columbo

    Columbo Active Member

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    Do composers sometimes stick very close to the pieces on the temp track because they know that hits the mood the director wants in a scene? Star Wars starts with Mars as well for instance. The theme for The Incredibles is very like the theme from OHMSS which we know was the temp track because its in the early trailer. The Alex North 2001 theme is similar to the piece on the temp track which of course was finally kept in the film. This must be happening all the time and so long as the temp music remains unknown then the new composer can take all the credit.
     
  10. Jamanticus

    Jamanticus Well-Known Member

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    This :)
     
  11. Colin Droidmilk

    Colin Droidmilk Sr Member

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    Of course, but I'm surprised by the extent of the un-deviation in the LOTR phrase. There is a ton of Holst's and Stravinsky's textures and flavours in Star Wars but never an entire - and highly prominent - melody line lifted verbatim and presented as a main figure.
     
  12. Colin Droidmilk

    Colin Droidmilk Sr Member

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    Well, the practice is not new, I know, but that's no reason not to point out any particularly outrageous examples when we come across them... and this is one of the most outrageous I've ever encountered tbh, for reasons I outline in the above post.
     
  13. Jamanticus

    Jamanticus Well-Known Member

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    Could Shore's use of Sibelius be considered more of a musical shout-out? They're a lovely nine notes. Like a little wave to Sibelius every time the theme plays.
     
  14. VilleLeskinen

    VilleLeskinen Sr Member Community Staff RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    It seems somewhat fitting since Tolkien was very much influenced by the Finnish national epic, Kalevala. :lol
     
  15. Celtic007

    Celtic007 Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    One great example of this is the Death Star run in A New Hope. Just before it explodes, it sounds just like the end of Mars Bringer of War.

    Compare 6:56 -
    Gustav Holst - The Planets - Mars, the Bringer of War - YouTube
    to 8:07
    Star Wars Episode IV Soundtrack - The Battle of Yavin - YouTube
     
  16. binkleywalker

    binkleywalker Sr Member

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  17. AnubisGuard

    AnubisGuard Sr Member

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    I wouldn't say that. The LOTR theme doesn't stick to Sibelius any more closely than the Star Wars and Luke's themes do to King's Row.
     
  18. Colin Droidmilk

    Colin Droidmilk Sr Member

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    I disagree. Sibelius and LOTR are practically indistinguishable, while there's only a vague relation between SW and KR.
     
  19. Colin Droidmilk

    Colin Droidmilk Sr Member

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    There are also many more subtle Planets bits, such as the brief little quote from Saturn, Bringer of Old Age, to bring Holstian tragedy to the Destruction of Alderaan (more of an orchestration thing, this than an actual melody rip); a structural device - again, rather than an actual melody - from Venus is used as the robots' pod falls to Tatooine, a long descending run of notes over a stable chord ending on a shift up of the chord by one semitone for the last note, the effect of which, as in Venus, is one of warmth and grandeur. There are bits of Mercury and Jupiter in the running around the DS and the escape therefrom.

    I think it highly appropriate that SW makes such use of Holst, not least because of the connection to myth they share ( though Holst insisted The Planets was about astrology, yes, astrology, and not mythic figures). Artistically, I have no problem with Williams' Holst steals. But I'm a bit - and only a bit, mind - uncomfortable with Williams receiving total credit for every note we hear in that score.

    And yes, Sibelius is appropriate for LOTR too. I suppose my interest in having these rips pointed out is that we - and the world's viciously proprietorial copyright owners - understand what we're listening to. For instance the soundtrack of LOTR, including the Sibelius phrase, is copyrighted material, but no way in hell should that phrase become the intellectual property of the owners of that score. In short, in such a clear case as the Sibelius, a way should be found to give the classical composer a credit. In SW, though, the Holst lifts are more indirect, and a credit to Holst would be too cumbersome...hmm, where to draw the line...
     
  20. Celtic007

    Celtic007 Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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  21. CelticRuins

    CelticRuins Sr Member

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    I definitely hear the Rohirrim arriving at Pelennor at the beginning. Other than that, the use of horns is similar but not close enough.

    Everything is inspired by something. Nothing is ever original in this day and age.
     
  22. PantheraGem

    PantheraGem Sr Member

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    For what I think is an underrated piece, and huge inspiration to modern film composers, is Dvorak's 9th. The influence of the 4th movement alone, is apparent from the get-go.

    Dvorak - Symphony No. 9 From the New World - 4th movement - YouTube

    The entire symphony is pretty influential. Alan Silvestri's "CastAway" score is lifted almost intact as well.
     

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