Logan's Run DS Gun - TV version

Thanks for the compliments, everyone!

While i think it would be very cool to fire this prop one day, my main aim with this was to own an extremely set-accurate-looking/constructed replica. Incidentally, I think I got close, but with the gun's innards being very innacurate, the handgrips made of resin instead of aluminum, and me not being able to weld aluminum parts together, my replica is about 75-80% set/screen accurate at best (and that's not including the fact that I'm not really sure exactly what kind of glow plug was used--it looks weird in the photos on alexis' site, and it looks like different ones were used on different props). I just couldn't easily and affordably on my own make new internal components to exactly match the original props. I was stuck with the guts the replica came with, and while the Aussie replica was a really excellent match to the reference photos in most external ways, the internal components were not very close at all. I didn't alter the insides in any way other than a tiny bit cosmetically, so they work up to a point (everything moves correctly and fits together perfectly), and my wiring works (see my work-in-progress glow plug test photo below), so i don't see why this prop wouldn't still fire when loaded up...

DSC06986.jpg


So, one day I'll probably fire this thing, but like I said, I just wanted to own a really good replica. I really want to own an original--I collect mostly screen-used/production-made props and am only interested in seriously set-accurate replicas, but I know that original Logan's Run gun props are so rare and so expensive when they do turn up that it would be impossible for me to get one. I know I'm in the minority about this, but firing it just wasn't as important as getting it to look right. Additionally, I have some concerns over whether some of my parts would hold up under high heat, specifically the JB Weld I used on the fin. Anybody out there know if JB Weld withstands repeated direct contact with open flame? I may test some before I get serious about shooting the prop...I'd hate to have my entire year's worth of work on this thing go down the tubes the first time I fire it.

Anyway, for Richard: I have owned one of your DS gun props since the early/mid '90s, and I used it extensively for reference when researching my replica. One of the reasons I was so happy with the Aussie replica I started with was that it's dimensions and angles exactly matched your cast-from-an-original replica and the photos of the movie guns on your site. Speaking of which, your site was an invaluable reference tool as well, and I'm sorry I didn't include you or it when I was thanking rpf members--I posted links to your articles in my first few posts, but they are easy to miss when I write so much:unsure. If I ever get an Aussie replica of the movie version of the DS gun, I'll definitely be studying those pics on your site again. My only real question about the movie props is how did the bondo grips look when seen from above--did the propmakers just bondo up and over the entire top of the battery (leaving the battery terminal exposed) or did they just bondo up to the edge of the black plastic top of the battery? If I knew the answer to that and had another Aussie replica, I'd be ready to go!

Some last pics for now: here's a replica of the TV version of the Sandman belt holster/belt clip which came with an old non-functional metal replica I bought on eBay years ago. It looks really accurate when compared to the reference photos (unlike the replica it came with), but i have no idea who made it. I kept it long after I sold that particular prop, and now I'm glad I did--it goes well with my TV DS Gun replica. It's just cut and folded aluminum sheet painted in Krylon semi-flat black (like the gun)--a very simple and easy-to-make replica, I'd imagine:
IMG_0147.jpg


And here are some scans of stills I used when researching the TV prop that show off the holster/clip as well as the DS Guns:
IMG51.jpg


IMG38.jpg


IMG39.jpg


IMG09.jpg
 
Thanks for the compliments, everyone!

While i think it would be very cool to fire this prop one day, my main aim with this was to own an extremely set-accurate-looking/constructed replica. Incidentally, I think I got close, but with the gun's innards being very innacurate, the handgrips made of resin instead of aluminum, and me not being able to weld aluminum parts together, my replica is about 75-80% set/screen accurate at best (and that's not including the fact that I'm not really sure exactly what kind of glow plug was used--it looks weird in the photos on alexis' site, and it looks like different ones were used on different props). I just couldn't easily and affordably on my own make new internal components to exactly match the original props. I was stuck with the guts the replica came with, and while the Aussie replica was a really excellent match to the reference photos in most external ways, the internal components were not very close at all. I didn't alter the insides in any way other than a tiny bit cosmetically, so they work up to a point (everything moves correctly and fits together perfectly), and my wiring works (see my work-in-progress glow plug test photo below), so i don't see why this prop wouldn't still fire when loaded up...

Are you saying your not getting fire when fired or are you saying you cannot SEE any reason or will not flame??

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l92/maxspr1/DSC06986.jpg

So, one day I'll probably fire this thing, but like I said, I just wanted to own a really good replica. I really want to own an original--I collect mostly screen-used/production-made props and am only interested in seriously set-accurate replicas, but I know that original Logan's Run gun props are so rare and so expensive when they do turn up that it would be impossible for me to get one. I know I'm in the minority about this, but firing it just wasn't as important as getting it to look right. Additionally, I have some concerns over whether some of my parts would hold up under high heat, specifically the JB Weld I used on the fin. Anybody out there know if JB Weld withstands repeated direct contact with open flame? I may test some before I get serious about shooting the prop...I'd hate to have my entire year's worth of work on this thing go down the tubes the first time I fire it.

From my firing a working gun most of the flame will vent out the slots and have a tenancy to rise, so I would think a few shots will not heat the weld much, and if you used the expoxe for automotive use it is suppose to work on engines..My 2 cents.


Anyway, for Richard: I have owned one of your DS gun props since the early/mid '90s, and I used it extensively for reference when researching my replica. One of the reasons I was so happy with the Aussie replica I started with was that it's dimensions and angles exactly matched your cast-from-an-original replica and the photos of the movie guns on your site. Speaking of which, your site was an invaluable reference tool as well, and I'm sorry I didn't include you or it when I was thanking rpf members--I posted links to your articles in my first few posts, but they are easy to miss when I write so much:unsure. If I ever get an Aussie replica of the movie version of the DS gun, I'll definitely be studying those pics on your site again. My only real question about the movie props is how did the bondo grips look when seen from above--did the propmakers just bondo up and over the entire top of the battery (leaving the battery terminal exposed) or did they just bondo up to the edge of the black plastic top of the battery? If I knew the answer to that and had another Aussie replica, I'd be ready to go!

From my memory, the top of the battery were exposed and simply paint black along with the gun. I think you can still see the blasck paint on the top of the battery here:
http://www.racprops.com/issue4/logansrun_dspistol/images/GatesBattery.jpg


Some last pics for now: here's a replica of the TV version of the Sandman belt holster/belt clip which came with an old non-functional metal replica I bought on eBay years ago. It looks really accurate when compared to the reference photos (unlike the replica it came with), but i have no idea who made it. I kept it long after I sold that particular prop, and now I'm glad I did--it goes well with my TV DS Gun replica. It's just cut and folded aluminum sheet painted in Krylon semi-flat black (like the gun)--a very simple and easy-to-make replica, I'd imagine:
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l92/maxspr1/IMG_0147.jpg

Looks dead on and I believe that was what they did on the set.

By the way, did you know they used a clear surgery tubing as the filler of the belt ribs?


And here are some scans of stills I used when researching the TV prop that show off the holster/clip as well as the DS Guns:
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l92/maxspr1/IMG51.jpg

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l92/maxspr1/IMG38.jpg

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l92/maxspr1/IMG39.jpg

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l92/maxspr1/IMG09.jpg


My 2 cents worth.

Rich
 
I was wanting to try something like that myself...but never got the funds and time and sales were slow and limited so didn't.

It seems like a good idea, change the valves to handle say lower or higher pressure and it should work, IF there is a hard enough stream to reach the glow plug and spray out to be lighted.

From my article on the gun:

One note about the front muzzle: on the working movie prop, the hole in the front appeared to have a washer pushed in with gasket of duck tape in the bore in order to neck down the large diameter of the tubing to the smaller hole seen. On later models, like those used in the TV version, this feature was machined as a part of the end cap. It is my belief that they wanted to use the larger bore of this muzzle, because in Hollywood bigger is better and certainly more intimidating as a gun, but they found that the gas just shot right out the front without hitting the glow plug and lighting. Thus, a modification to the bore was required, so the washer was added to cause the gas to fan out and positively hit the glow plug.

So a strong stream and fanning out hitting the front muzzle is a main problem.

Of farther note the working guns I once had, the gas jet was aimed at the bottom of the muzzle and at the washer and glow plug.

Rich


I was wondering if a DS gun can be made to run off butane & still have the same effect?
 
Oh you could probably do it you would just have to redesign the whole gun, talk about a PITA! :lol

Besides nothing like the smell of CC in the morning



I was wanting to try something like that myself...but never got the funds and time and sales were slow and limited so didn't.

It seems like a good idea, change the valves to handle say lower or higher pressure and it should work, IF there is a hard enough stream to reach the glow plug and spray out to be lighted.

From my article on the gun:

One note about the front muzzle: on the working movie prop, the hole in the front appeared to have a washer pushed in with gasket of duck tape in the bore in order to neck down the large diameter of the tubing to the smaller hole seen. On later models, like those used in the TV version, this feature was machined as a part of the end cap. It is my belief that they wanted to use the larger bore of this muzzle, because in Hollywood bigger is better and certainly more intimidating as a gun, but they found that the gas just shot right out the front without hitting the glow plug and lighting. Thus, a modification to the bore was required, so the washer was added to cause the gas to fan out and positively hit the glow plug.

So a strong stream and fanning out hitting the front muzzle is a main problem.

Of farther note the working guns I once had, the gas jet was aimed at the bottom of the muzzle and at the washer and glow plug.

Rich
 
Thanks for the compliments, everyone!

While i think it would be very cool to fire this prop one day, my main aim with this was to own an extremely set-accurate-looking/constructed replica. Incidentally, I think I got close, but with the gun's innards being very innacurate, the handgrips made of resin instead of aluminum, and me not being able to weld aluminum parts together, my replica is about 75-80% set/screen accurate at best (and that's not including the fact that I'm not really sure exactly what kind of glow plug was used--it looks weird in the photos on alexis' site, and it looks like different ones were used on different props). I just couldn't easily and affordably on my own make new internal components to exactly match the original props. I was stuck with the guts the replica came with, and while the Aussie replica was a really excellent match to the reference photos in most external ways, the internal components were not very close at all.

Thank you luck stars. First from my article on the prop:

It is also a fact that many recreations (that follow the original design) and the one genuine working prop I fired (shown in these photos) leaked gas around the valve on many test firings.

I believe that the expressions of the actors' faces (watch Logan's firing his flamer, he really does not look happy)and their tight grip of the pistol suggests that they were concerned about this flaw during the filming of the action scenes where they had to actually fire the guns.

The other problem was the welding flux that was added to get the greenest flame, it eat the valve seal, so after a little use the valve would not shut off the gas flow, again making it a lot less safe to handle.

J.J. Lastwick, and Rylo made the safest guns.

Your Aussy friend only used a larger valve and bigger spring to get it to work with the same flaws.

The Match a Lite lighter valve was NOT up to the task which is why they added a powerful spring to force it to shut and hold with the pressure made by the tank..mostly...

And what a mess was left after a firing cycle, you had to flush out the unconverted rocks which would then go off in the sink, and you have to clean out the pasty left over as well and after a bunch of runs clean out the filter too.

The glow plug came from those gas powered airplane models and as far as I remember it was sized by its voltage and it can be seen next to the battery:

http://www.racprops.com/issue4/logansrun_dspistol/images/GatesBattery.jpg

Rich
 
J.J.'s guns used the original design so they were as flawed as the originals were.

Rylo's guns are bar none the best and the last we will ever see of these.

He thought out every weakness of the gun and redesigned it to be better.

There is not a better Gun out there. :thumbsup
 
From what I was told (not seen) J.J. kept the valve indie the machined main body so that it would not leak gas into the lower body of the gun.

Other that that I believe he also had some valve problems.

Still until Rylo's version it was the best one done.

As for Rylo I totally agree.

Rich

- - - Updated - - -

Why bother Rylo already did it.

Rich

Oh you could probably do it you would just have to redesign the whole gun, talk about a PITA! :lol

Besides nothing like the smell of CC in the morning
 
Next time I stop by for a visit, Rich, I will bring my Rylo gun and some CC and we can have some fun. :)
 

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Send me a pic Rich, I'll tell you who made it!

NOTE: It's very important to note that my replicas never would've happened if not for the valuable reference initially provided by Rich via his website. He documented an original gun a long time before I got my hands on one for a more in depth study. It was only after I replicated my first gun using the original match-o-matic valve, gates battery, etc. that I decided the original mechanism could be improved upon while staying true to the props original design/function. Rich's site provided a good basic understanding of the original prop before I had the additional reference that resulted in what we have now.

With that. A polite thank you to Mr. Coyle is in order. He was laying out good solid reference for props long before it was in vogue.

-Ry
 
This is my first thread, and I wanted to show off a project I've been working on for a few months which has turned out far better than I ever hoped.

hello - glad to see another sandman in columbus area ..... i will be at marcon maybe we could do a run there?
 
I plan to make 2 DS guns, one made to work on butane fuel & one made of wood, PVC, & a camera strobe for the light effect.

I'm wateing for my suply budget to rise, to build the butane version.

For the wood & pvc version, I need mesurements from this prop. Can somone help me out with this part?

When I finished building the wood & pvc version, I'll show you a video of it on youtube.

If anyone is curious to look around, here's my videos :)
nathanalaneller - YouTube
 
Here is an old schematic that I picked up from somewhere. I'm not sure who originally did it. It does have some measurements.
31978_117507028283967_1711158_n.jpg


Note: I cannot say that these measurements are correct as I did not take these from a screen used original and some interpretation variances could exist.

Muzzle tip to gas chamber tip = 35cm
Top of barrel to tip of handgrip = 14cm
Body thickness w/o grips = 2.2cm
Body thickness w/grips = 3.9cm
Muzzle body outside = 3.2cm
Muzzle length = 10.6cm
Gas chamber outside = 2.8cm
Gas chamber length = 8.1cm
Barrel body outside = 2.55cm
 
I've seen people talk about making butane flameguns for over 20 years. We already have them...they're called BBQ grill lighters. Seriously, the end result is a cigarette lighter effect and nothing more. That is, if one is even capable of engineering it that far. One does not arbitrarily substitute one gas for another and get the same effect. This idea is usually suggested by those who've never handled a working prop and think, "fire is fire so if we do this we'll have that," etc. etc.

Now, I'm not one to squash dreams so blame it on science. The Flammable Range (Explosive Range) is the range of a concentration of a gas or vapor that will burn (or explode) if an ignition source is introduced. The limits are commonly called the "Lower Explosive or Flammable Limit" (LEL/LFL) and the "Upper Explosive or Flammable Limit" (UEL/UFL). Acetylene behaves completely different than butane. Two different animals.

Flameguns (as we know them) do not lend themselves to that application. They are/were by their very design (Fred Cramer) manufactured to be self contained, portable FX props capable of generating their own power from within. i.e., gas isn't pumped into them; it occurs within them once the proper catalyst is introduced.

I have a theory about the original props. I suspect Fred originally intended to cannibalize the entire matchomatic lighter for his base prop but could not get the desired effect from the butane alone. If you lay a matchomatic out (tank and all) even the butane tank hints at the design of the sandman guns we know and love. Hell even the rear cap is where gas is introduced. Anyway, seeing as how he even carried over the filter area of the matchomatic to the CC design, I'm guessing Fred had worked with calcium carbide in the past and had a quick flash of genius regarding how to boost it's performance.

Still one of the most cleverly design, functional props ever made for a film.
 
I have one of those bluprints. I tryed to serch for more blueprints but all I could find is one frame on a now deleated file.
ds.gif

The best thing I can think of, in geting mesurement bluprints, is to ask somone here who has a working prop & messure it's many contours.

Here is an old schematic that I picked up from somewhere. I'm not sure who originally did it. It does have some measurements.
https://scontent-a-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash2/31978_117507028283967_1711158_n.jpg?lvh=1

Note: I cannot say that these measurements are correct as I did not take these from a screen used original and some interpretation variances could exist.

Muzzle tip to gas chamber tip = 35cm
Top of barrel to tip of handgrip = 14cm
Body thickness w/o grips = 2.2cm
Body thickness w/grips = 3.9cm
Muzzle body outside = 3.2cm
Muzzle length = 10.6cm
Gas chamber outside = 2.8cm
Gas chamber length = 8.1cm
Barrel body outside = 2.55cm
 
Well, considering the designer of the best working prop out there just posted above you, I suggest you ask him. :)
 
I've always been a little cautious around Acetylene. I actually went to school for welding back in my teens and Oxy-Acetylene is where everyone starts, gas welding. Like everything else, we had one or more idiots in class. One student decided to fill a Coca-cola can with Acetylene and put it inside a booth where another student was stick welding. Being that Acetylene is denser than air, it stayed in the can. Long story short, some molten slag dropped into the can while the the guy was welding. The result was a nice size fireball and loud BOOM similar to an M80 going off. The instructor was not amused and all the students involved in the prank were never seen in the class again after that.

I have both MiG and TiG rigs in the garage. I sold my Oxy-Acetylene rig and got a plasma cutter for cutting metal.

So use caution when messing around with any flammable gas, especially gas that can explode violently.
 
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