LFL v SDS

Discussion in 'Replica Props' started by exoray, Feb 9, 2006.

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  1. exoray

    exoray Master Member

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    Well it appears AA's new strategy is to toss in the towel, ignore the US courts and let a default be entered against him...

    It should be very interesting from this point on... And so much for getting some real answers to some of the questions brought forward in this case...

    Docket
     
  2. TK765

    TK765 Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    I always figured it probably wouldn't get to trial.
     
  3. Qui-Gonzalez

    Qui-Gonzalez Master Member

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    I may be way off base here, but it reads like AA was served a summons and basically ignored it. LFL is filing for a default since AA ignored the summons. Now a judge has to rule on AA defaulting since the clerk cannot? It shows I am sooooo not a lawyer.
     
  4. exoray

    exoray Master Member

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    Lawyer or not you got it...
     
  5. Prop-Maker

    Prop-Maker Well-Known Member

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    I have a feeling that my cousin could translate all that lawyer-talk for me.
     
  6. Boba Debt

    Boba Debt Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    So AA isn't giving up, their just saying "What ever"????
     
  7. exoray

    exoray Master Member

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    No AA has decided to ignore the court, basically the case wraps up (judgment) based on LFL claims as being factual and now uncontested...

    Lets put it this way, if he was a boxer he just refused to get off the stool and answer the bell...
     
  8. RedTwoX

    RedTwoX Sr Member

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    That's what it looks like.
     
  9. gonk27

    gonk27 Sr Member

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    What on earth is he thinking? ....
     
  10. foxbatkllr

    foxbatkllr Sr Member

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    I'm not a Lawyer, but I am a Law Student...and you got it right.

    Edit: After reading through most of those files, I'm surprised at how much I've already learned and understand. I'm only a first year law student and by reading the complaint and motions I came to the same conclusion as the Judge (on the motion to dismiss for lack of jurisdiction). Then when I read the Judge's opinion, he pretty much hit all the points that I had thought of, including specific cases such as Burger King and International Shoe.
     
  11. DL 44 Blaster

    DL 44 Blaster Sr Member

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    So will SDS continue to openly sell?? :confused
     
  12. foxbatkllr

    foxbatkllr Sr Member

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    Not for long. SDS is demonstrating the easy way to lose a lawsuit.
     
  13. Kerr Avon

    Kerr Avon Master Member

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    Interesting.
     
  14. Qui-Gonzalez

    Qui-Gonzalez Master Member

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    So, my next question for the legal eagles; If LFL gets the default judgement, does that mean they "win" their claims from AA OR does this head to an international or UK court room to have an old fashioned duke-'em-up in that arena?
     
  15. foxbatkllr

    foxbatkllr Sr Member

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    I don't know much about international law, but I do know that SDS will probably be enjoined from selling more helmets in the U.S. at least and LFL could possibly be awarded up to 15 million dollars (I think that's what they are asking for).
     
  16. Qui-Gonzalez

    Qui-Gonzalez Master Member

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    I thought it added up to 20. At that point, it doesn't even matter, jeez. 1 million or 20 million...anything after one is just crazy.
     
  17. exoray

    exoray Master Member

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    Yes...

    No such thing as International court...

    Yes it will head to the UK court system as a collection for judgment, there will no duke-'em out in that case, the UK court under the Hague Convention will not rule on the merits of the case that lead tot he judgment, but only if it is a legitimate judgment...

    Of course because it's International there will be a few obstacles, the fact AA defaulted might have some relevance under the Hague Convention but I doubt it since he did start to defend himself at first, it wasn't an all out default from the start...

    Read Chapter III of this part of the Hague Convention for a detailed explanation...

    http://www.hcch.net/index_en.php?act=conventions.text&cid=98
     
  18. foxbatkllr

    foxbatkllr Sr Member

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    I probably miscalculated...I did just sort of skim through that part.
     
  19. TKBIG

    TKBIG Active Member

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    Man, you said. This is disappointing to say the least. I wanted to see some of the questions brought out in the various threads get some type of answer. Heck anything would be better than silence........
     
  20. Ghost Host

    Ghost Host Sr Member

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    Strange development.
    How can LFL stop SDS from selling to the US? I mean that literally? What will they do? And how will they claim their award without going over to the UK?

     
  21. exoray

    exoray Master Member

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    Well for starters they will probably notify customs, and customs will start to seize packages... Second they will probably send nasty grams to payment companies like Paypal threatening them for contribuiting to the infringments...

    And then they will petition the UK courts under the Hague Convention for enforcement, read above the UK courts should uphold the US judgment and act accordinly... It's the age old you wash my hands I will wash yours, universally the UK and US courts will work together in issues like this because they want the other to return the favor when asked, thus the purpose of Conventions like the Hague in absence of an International court...

    I full well understand it's an international issue but the international boundries don't give you full protection when you are in a "friendly" country...
     
  22. Cookiee Monsta

    Cookiee Monsta Well-Known Member

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    So if anyone in the U.S really wanted to buy anything from SDS, whats to stop them bringing them in via a secondary country through relatives/friends?
     
  23. JediCarl

    JediCarl Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG] How predictable.

    How much more obvious does it have to be that AA has been full of crap all along?

    This clinches it for me. LFL is in the right and has the facts to prove it. They were going to nail him. He knew this and that he would lose if it went to court, so a Default allows his to save as much face as possible.
     
  24. JHVanOphem

    JHVanOphem Well-Known Member

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    Another non-lawyer here, but I would assume as his counsel recommend he default, that his counsel would also recommend he no longer accept orders from outside the UK.

    If he does continue to accept orders then he would be exposing himself to being sued again, for an even higher amount.

    Of course it might be a moot point, By defaulting, he might then declare bankruptcy, stop production and that will be the end of SDS.
     
  25. Clutch

    Clutch Master Member

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    I see the prices of existing SDS suits going through the roof. :lol
     
  26. Trallis

    Trallis Well-Known Member

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    not jumping to any conclusions here, but maybe SDS figured hes gonna lose his right to sell the props, why lose his dignity too by allowing a court case to reveal all sorts of interesting stuff. Now when he loses the case, that's why, and not because his whole operation was a fraud
     
  27. AnsonJames

    AnsonJames Sr Member

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    You're kidding right.?
    I think it's got more to do with the fact he never had the original moulds and he was conning people from the get go.
    He's given up because he knows LFL have rock solid evidence to prove he hasn't got the original moulds.


     
  28. AnsonJames

    AnsonJames Sr Member

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    Also if he had the original moulds and he could prove this why would he allow LFL to win by default purely because of his "dignity"
    This is a multi-million dollar law suit - do you think he would walk away just to save face knowing he's going to lose everything and owe a fortune - I don't think so...
     
  29. Darth Domain

    Darth Domain Well-Known Member

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    The most cost effective way :lol
     
  30. Trallis

    Trallis Well-Known Member

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    Thats exactly what i said. He knows hes gonna get rocked and he has no chance, so why bother if it just means embarassment in the court room and the further revelation of his whole operation, when he could just as easily lose without all the extra trouble and embaressment. The last sentence was a sarcastic statement, i'm talking about my theory of his own reasoning
     
  31. Trallis

    Trallis Well-Known Member

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    and believe me man, im on the furthest left side of the original molds topic. i am one of the "he isnt even the sculpter" guys
     
  32. AnsonJames

    AnsonJames Sr Member

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    Sorry mate - I completely took you up wrong.
    I really don't think AA had any dignity to begin with.
    I'm just waiting for the Pro-AA camp to come up with some way of explaining his actions in this matter - hopefully this should kill this debate once and for all.

    Anson



     
  33. Qui-Gonzalez

    Qui-Gonzalez Master Member

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    So, reading Chapter 3 of the Hague, I caught a couple of things. The first was in Article 8/Section 2:
    Without prejudice to such review as is necessary for the application of the provisions of this Chapter, there shall be no review of the merits of the judgment given by the court of origin. The court addressed shall be bound by the findings of fact on which the court of origin based its jurisdiction, unless the judgment was given by default.

    That part looks like AA's next gambit to me. Then there is Article 11 which tells me, in both parts, that he may not lose all that LFL wanted him to, if the UK courts indeed feel LFL is in the right:

    1. Recognition or enforcement of a judgment may be refused if, and to the extent that, the judgment awards damages, including exemplary or punitive damages, that do not compensate a party for actual loss or harm suffered.

    2. The court addressed shall take into account whether and to what extent the damages awarded by the court of origin serve to cover costs and expenses relating to the proceedings.


    I could be way off, being a layman and all, but of the whole of Chapter 3, those caught my eye.
     
  34. Star Wars Helmets

    Star Wars Helmets Sr Member

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    I think the correct analogy would be..

    The “Boxer” didn’t even get on the plane to go to the bout in the first place. The other boxer turned up in the ring, but there was no one there to fight. :lol

    In all honesty did anyone here expect anything other than this? Did people REALLY think that David was going to visit Goliath? :rolleyes

    It all comes down to whether LFL are able to get the UK Courts to enforce the costs of a US Judgements, and with respect I donÂ’t think anyone here has an understanding of whether thatÂ’s achievable or not. IÂ’m presuming we donÂ’t have any experts on international law here?

    Cheers

    Jez
     
  35. Apollo

    Apollo Legendary Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Wow. This thread has been here since last night and Thomas and Mike have not replied? ;)
     
  36. DL 44 Blaster

    DL 44 Blaster Sr Member

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    So now...do the value of what's "left" of SDS products go up or down? Predicting along the ICONS debacle,I'd say they will go down.

    2 cents

    Steve
     
  37. soltic

    soltic Active Member

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    If I'm not mistaken, only counts if u have assets to attach to. He could be worth relatively little to LFL @ the end of the day.... if anything.

    IMO it's simply to stop the sale & production - they could have sued for 50M or whatever.

    I know nothing of SDS but Joe Blow w/ an old vacformer, some rental space = low to zero asset value. SDS owns a large building different story.

    -Rod
     
  38. rigormortis

    rigormortis Well-Known Member

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    Well some of us bought the suits to troop in, so selling them may be a moot point.

    IMHO, LFL is going to have to file in the UK to get him to stop selling them.
     
  39. AnsonJames

    AnsonJames Sr Member

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    Does seem very one sided this particular topic doesn't it?

    As far as the David and Goliath argument is concerned if I were AA I wouldn't back down for all the tea in China even if LFL is a huge corperation - if you're right you're right.
    I find it curious that AA went to the trouble of hiring a lawyer just to back out at the last minute - why did he bother?
    If you were sure of your case and you could produce the original moulds in court why would you fall back on loopholes in the law?
    As it is international copyright law is a very touchy subject right at the moment - I'd be amazed if the British courts ignored a ruling made in the U.S.
     
  40. Lord Abaddon

    Lord Abaddon Sr Member

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    :lol

    Well there was no reason too because people were pretty much just talking unemotionally and honestly about possibilities, but then the "speculators" jumped in with their all knowing knowledge of what AA's legal team is doing and why. :lol

    First let me again thank Flynn for getting and providing the information, as well as giving us some idea how this might be enforced.

    Second as Jez said, did anyone really believe he was going to go all out in the USA? His argument from the start was that the US court had no jurisdiction and LFL had no direct claim. I never saw him fighting this in the US courts for long (though I did think it would go further than this) and I would *assume* that is how his legal team saw it as well. Fighting something in another nation is prohibitively expensive, I don't care who you are (which might be part of why LFL didn't want to "draw blood" in the UK...they still do look at their bottom line). Hell, just the paperwork fees alone could kill ya. More than likely his legal team (not AA...I doubt he knows any more about law than most of the posters here.) told him after the pieces fell into place on the US side to let it go and force it to end up in the UK.

    Now, again all assumption, if this does default and does end up being shifted to the UK courts to see about upholding the default, from what I'm reading he still can fully argue his case against such judgement in the UK when it hits there. They would be on their "home turf", they could petition for their side of the argument, show that under UK law he is within his rights (in some fashion...that creative rights law?), etc.

    I know the anti-AA people are doing their little happy dances, but that just shows how silly they are. If anyone thinks such legal actions, especially across national borders, are this cut and dried, their delusional. :p

    Now, whether he's got a case in any way to stop Goliath from stomping the bejeezus out of him after this is anyone's guess, but I see this as way smarter financially than trying to fight what essentially was a long-distance war.

    However I will say that should this not go further, or that somehow the default is argued quietly and resolved as such, I too would be disappointed to not know the truth about it all.

    As for prices? Who knows. They could go up as they are rare, still could hold the "from the original maker" (since now we might never know so it's still all opinion) and shoot way up. Or they might fall down to rock bottom. I think they will shoot way up just because of the controversy behind them and they still were made (original or not) by a guy from the movie. It'll probably end up like ICONs actually...remember what ICONs sabers were getting after their shut down? Exhorbitant prices. But then MR came out and they dropped and kept dropping. The only big difference is the provenance as well that nobody is mass producing (theoretically ;)) as seen on screen helmets where as the MR will be idealized. So...as usual time will tell.
     
  41. Qui-Gonzalez

    Qui-Gonzalez Master Member

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    Well, I am anti-AA, but my questions still haven't been answered. Looking at those two areas of the Hague, it looks as if AA may have something in regards to not ponying up the dough. Hell of a gamble.
     
  42. Star Wars Helmets

    Star Wars Helmets Sr Member

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    Which reminds me of that pic someone did (was it Braks Buddy?) of AA as a Hoth Rebel flipping the bird at the oncoming ATAT's :lol

    Cheers

    jez
     
  43. Apollo

    Apollo Legendary Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    There he is. :lol

    I too think this is just another step and this is far from over.

    If not then AA is really going to look like a fool.
     
  44. Gytheran

    Gytheran Sr Member

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    Had AA really possessed the proof to support his ownership of the copyright, he would have fought LFL.

    To date, there has been ABSOLUTELY NO proof whatsoever to support AA owned the copyright to the stormtrooper design. The only thing we've had to go on was his word, which isn't worth the net space it was saved to.

    This "David vs Goliath" reference is ridiculous. AA just gave LFL a win and there's nothing to state this will go to UK courts. All LFL needs to do is have UK courts to honor the U.S. decision. He's(AA) a certified wacko if he thought he would win by initiating the "moron maneuver". Copyright infringement is a really hot topic. :confused

    Looks like AA was full of crap afterall... not that it's a surprise. He's never been proven to be very truthfull.
     
  45. Lord Abaddon

    Lord Abaddon Sr Member

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    :lol

    Yeah, that pic was great. Someone needs to re post that.
     
  46. Jeeves

    Jeeves Well-Known Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    This is probably a lot more complex than it appears from our armchairs. We're talking about two different legal systems, two different sets of laws. For all we know, AA might be OK under British copyright laws, and not under US copyright laws. If that's the case, he'd be a moron to come to the US to stand trial under out laws. Heck, even if he's got an arguable case under US copyright laws, he probably doesn't have the muscle to mount a significant trial against LFL - it may not be worth the risk. I don't know the truth here, just pointing out alternate explanations - I would think that his actions were recommended to him by his lawyer for a specific strategic reason.

    -Raj
     
  47. Qui-Gonzalez

    Qui-Gonzalez Master Member

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    I would agree with your last statement. This guy stands to lose eeeeverything, I doubt this is the end of the road. As far as the ruling goes, according to that Hague treaty Exoray posted, the UK courts should abide by the US court's ruling. The difference seems to come in regards to the damages the courts will award LFL.
     
  48. exoray

    exoray Master Member

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    And that is really what it all boils down to, and the reason for the Hague Convention so matters like this don't go unchecked because of your nationality in regards to the world market...
     
  49. exoray

    exoray Master Member

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    IMO if his council was going to recommend default they would have advised it at the very start, before AA even acknowledged that the US courts had any power over him... The minute he answered the summons and then continued the case he showed the courts (both UK and US) that he felt bound by the US courts in regards to this issue, this might very well come back to haunt him...

    And again IMO it appears more of a lack of keeping the legal fund above water scenerio, why give LFL everything when (I would say with almost 100% certainty that) he could have cut a deal and walked away in better standing...
     
  50. Star Wars Helmets

    Star Wars Helmets Sr Member

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    Did he answer the summons?. His response to the US courts seemed to have centered on their "lack of jurisdiction" and not the case itself.

    What did he give LFL? How do you know he didnt try and "cut a deal"?

    Cheers

    Jez
     
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