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The dumbest part of it is that they have internal information showing that that is not true. As I've said before, every time SW Insider magazine or their website would do polls of favorite characters, both in the movies and in the Expanded Universe, female characters were at the top. Mara Jade and Jaina Solo were consistently in the top five of the EU favs, if Mara wasn't #1, every time, multiple years. The same male fans were around then voting for that. It's the stories that are crap. I thought Rey was an interesting character, but then they blew it.

I know some people didn't like the EU stuff, but say what you will, those writers (well with a few exceptions) got SW.
 
Yeah, KK did a couple days ago:


She's inoculating herself against backlash of any kind: If The Acolyte underperforms, it's because of the racist, sexist, male-dominated fanbase.
Lol. Meanwhile Karen Traviss remains a fan favorite for those of us who love Mandalorians and clones troopers. This "male dominated" fandom has no problem with women storytellers or female characters.
 
Lol. Meanwhile Karen Traviss remains a fan favorite for those of us who love Mandalorians and clones troopers. This "male dominated" fandom has no problem with women storytellers or female characters.

Exactly this! Which is why this fan trend of "Star Wars is for everyone " I keep seeing online is so absurd. Lucasfilm keeps perpetuating this fictional exclusivity by claiming how inclusive SW is now, when it always was. George just told better stories than they do. Even his poor efforts surpass anything Disney has delivered.

SW always has been for everyone. This is nothing new and the franchise wouldn't have retained relevance or worldwide appeal for almost 50 years if it didn't speak across age, gender, nationailty.
 
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Lol. Meanwhile Karen Traviss remains a fan favorite for those of us who love Mandalorians and clones troopers. This "male dominated" fandom has no problem with women storytellers or female characters.

Yeah that's the other thing when she's going on about mistreatment of female SW employees because some of my favorite SW series were female authors. Both the Republic Commando and the AC Crispin Han Solo trilogies are two of my favorites. NO ONE said a word about them hiring female authors. They just find a few idiots on Twitter who complain about "too many women" and say all the critics of the writing are one and the same.
 
Welcome to the twilight zone where being "stunning and brave" with sprinkles of virtue signaling are better currency.

And a niche site like TheRPF doesn't have a wide reach outside of the replica costuming and prop community. That may be hundreds or even a few thousand people, but it's not millions.... so outside of a several Youtube channels, there's really no counter arguments against KK and LFL and WHY their statements are objectively wrong... there is no way to counter their accusations on a large enough scale that would make any significant difference to the populace.

If the show does well... it's ALL because of the director/showrunner/cast/KK's tireless efforts.
If the show fails... it's because of toxic, bigoted fanboys online

Remember:
The Last Jedi, although MANY in the SW community felt it to be severely flawed... made over $1 billion worldwide.
Rise of Skywalker, the mishmash of "whatever the hell that was", also made over $1 billion worldwide.
And for several years we have heard all the claptrap online that KK is now DEFINITELY on her way out. But... she's still there at LFL.
Money talks, I guess.
 
Did we ever find out whose flange/gasket-thingie came off on Tatooine? And what was it for?

Davin.jpg
 
Did we ever find out whose flange/gasket-thingie came off on Tatooine? And what was it for?

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I assumed it fell of R2 when 3PO kicked him. >shrug<


As for the Acolyte and Kennedy's statements...sigh....as usual, I think this issue (including her statements) is a lot more nuanced than either side is letting on (or at least than comes thru in an out-of-context quote from her).

I think a lot of crap gets conflated in this discussion, and there are some people in the fan community who operate in bad faith and from a position of bigotry. That's not unique to Star Wars, either. It's true across the board with franchises that, at one time, were pretty male dominated in terms of the fandom, and now hold a broader appeal.

I think it'd be absurd to claim that there aren't truly toxic fans out there who say and do some really hateful crap. And I think that has an impact on the people who make this stuff. Both Daisy Ridley and Kelly Marie Tran basically left social media in the face of this. I expect it also applies to other women who become the targets of jackasses. That's all real. That really happens.

That said, that's not the full explanation for why some fans dislike the direction that various franchises have taken, nor why some films or shows perform more poorly than others. Recently, I'd say that at least part of the "poor performance" issue actually has waaaaay less to do with the audiences and waaaaay more to do with the budgeting and production approach. The more recent Captain Marvel film (which I still haven't seen) did poorly because it cost $200M to make or whatever, and comic book films are no longer locks for +$400M performances at the box office, let alone consistent $1B performances. Dumping $200M into a film and engaging in slapdash production is gonna bite you in the ass when the tally comes in, especially given that people just...aren't going to the movies as much anymore.

It's not because of "woke" or whatever other dumbass crap some dude with a Youtube channel wants you to believe. It's because going to the movies is EXPENSIVE and the experience on the whole is rarely worth it anymore.

Some fans dislike the new direction of Star Wars because it's "woke," which basically boils down to "has ladies and brown people." But some Star Wars fans hate it because they just don't like the stories, their focus, etc., the same way they didn't like the PT. That it was made by or starring women or people of color is irrelevant to them. I mean, sure, great, go ahead and do that, but I know for some fans, even if that's a positive in a general sense, it's not enough to offset their dislike for the stories.

All that said, I think Kennedy isn't wrong to note that representation matters both in front of and behind the camera. It's important, and there's nothing wrong with seeking out women, actors of color, and basically people with perspectives other than white dudes to make your entertainment. That's all to the good. It's also not sufficient by itself to make a story good.

Now, personally, I've generally enjoyed most of the Star Wars content I've consumed since the Disney buyout, TFA and ROTS notwithstanding. The rest has actually been...pretty entertaining for me. But I'm also not approaching Star Wars the same way I used to.

Back in the day, when Star Wars felt like a "once in a generation" thing, when the PT sucked...that was just...it. You were stuck with it and that meant you were stuck with crappy Star Wars from there on out (since Lucas shifted his focus to the PT at the expense of the OT era). With the Disney purchase, though, the sheer volume of Star Wars, for me, makes each individual piece just far less...I dunno...important. If it sucks or doesn't live up to what I want...eh...whatever. I don't actually care a ton. I mean, I rail against JJ's Star Wars films, but at the end of the day, I kinda...just don't care a ton. There's other stuff I enjoy. And if the whole franchise just dove off a cliff for me, and I stopped liking any of it...that's ok too. I've got my memories and the stuff I enjoy, and actually quite a bit of it.

Same thing with comic book films. For the most part, I've enjoyed Marvel's stuff. Some of it has been uneven lately, and it hasn't felt like it's building towards anything in particular (at least, not that clearly), but...eh, whatever. I'm enjoying it mostly. Not everything needs to be The Greatest Thing Ever. It's enough to be enough, ya know? It doesn't all have to be amazing.

Maybe it's just the modern era of how franchises are operated. The desire for grand continuity across films and such, the push to make it all part of some huge story or shared universe or whatever, I mean, that's fun when it works, but at the end of the day...like....I just don't care if each successive Mad Max film kinda doesn't fit with what came before, ya know? I'm just enjoying them as they come.

And with comic book and Star Wars stuff, hell, those are like busses. This one's full or smells weird or whatever? No worries. There's another one coming soon.
 
Some fans dislike the new direction of Star Wars because it's "woke," which basically boils down to "has ladies and brown people." But some Star Wars fans hate it because they just don't like the stories, their focus, etc., the same way they didn't like the PT. That it was made by or starring women or people of color is irrelevant to them. I mean, sure, great, go ahead and do that, but I know for some fans, even if that's a positive in a general sense, it's not enough to offset their dislike for the stories.

All that said, I think Kennedy isn't wrong to note that representation matters both in front of and behind the camera. It's important, and there's nothing wrong with seeking out women, actors of color, and basically people with perspectives other than white dudes to make your entertainment. That's all to the good. It's also not sufficient by itself to make a story good.

The Disney Star Wars films had the most diverse cast EVER (female British white main protagonist, with a simultaneously Latino AND Hispanic actor, a British black actor, and a Vietnamese actress), all of whom are talented in their own right... and they just weren't given either/both a good story and good direction. A total swing and a miss by the Disney era LFL.
 
It's hard to escape when even on here, people are posting conspiracy garbage and quotes from a-holes riding the "woke" outrage gravy train. It's unfortunate that we have to deal with that garbage even here.
 
Wokeness, schmokeness.

No, it doesn't inherently cause bad writing.

But a lot of clumsy heavy-handed wokeness has correlated with a lot of bad writing lately. Modern audiences are not crazy for regarding it as a warning sign. It has become a trendy stunt. A marketing gimmick. The studios have been using it as a crutch and prioritizing it too much over delivering quality work.


In 1985 there were some really good rock bands dressing in spandex & hairspray. It boosted a band's popularity to look that way. But by 1992 that same look was a strong indicator that a rock band was fecal. What changed? Did the commercially-available spandex & hairspray go down in quality and start interfering with their music?

Did the public have a bigoted prejudice against spandex & hairspray in 1992? No. People just reacted to what they were getting from the music industry. That's what they were doing in 1985 and in 1992.
 
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Dont forget Marcia Lucas and Carrie Fisher and their impact on Star Wars in the script.

I understand the point that Kennedy is making about some fans being toxic and hating on actors but she is wrong that the toxicity is focused only on female actors. Has everyone forgotten the amount of hate Jake Lloyd and Hayden got for playing Anakin? Or Keaton for Batman (although he did a great job)? Actors who dont fit the roles or just dont do a good job do get hate on and its not a male/female thing imo. While Tran and Ridley did get "bullied off social media," their characters were horribly written and unfortunately people stupidly attack the actors when they should honestly be attacking the directors for their incompetence. Her comments would have gone over better if she didnt make it about gender.

Kennedy's comments come off as "oh all this criticism against us is because we are women and its those damn toxic fans" again which followed by Headland's comments about "falling off the razor edge is ok as long as you get back up" sounds like preemptive justification for veering off Star Wars lore.

But to me, its clear that the people in Lucasfilm at least have lost the plot when it comes to understanding Star Wars and its fanbase. Abrams already painted all haters of "The Last Jedi" as people who will find an "enemy in Star Wars" because they hate women. Sorry, I did hate The Last Jedi but its because the story was absolute trash with its own revelations breaking the "lore" and character settings within its own self-contained trilogy. Its just a terrible entry, especially for a mid-trilogy movie and Rise of Skywalker should only be shown as an example that you can go below rock bottom in terms of competence.

I also love how these "diversity supporters" still turn a blind eye when they screw over diversity characters. What happened to Rose Tico or Finn in Rise of Skywalker? Bodegya wasnt happy with what happened to Finn and called Disney racist for their treatment of his character. Funny how Disney likes to keep that under wraps.
 
I also love how these "diversity supporters" still turn a blind eye when they screw over diversity characters. What happened to Rose Tico or Finn in Rise of Skywalker? Boyega wasnt happy with what happened to Finn and called Disney racist for their treatment of his character. Funny how Disney likes to keep that under wraps.
Yeah, I found Rise of Skywalker to be incredibly disappointing for those reasons (along with maaaaany other reasons). The way Finn is written in RoS, and the way Rose is written out of RoS...ugh. I get that the Rose situation may at least have been due in part to her being more involved with Leia, and those scenes ending up cut in the wake of Carrie Fisher's death, but still, sidelining her at all was a mistake. I like Rose as a character. I loved Finn as a character. The notion of a brainwashed ex-Stormtrooper who managed to buck his conditioning is awesome fodder for great stories...which never ended up being told. Instead, RoS wound up a mishmash of spectacle and unearned feel-good moments. I keep coming back to the first words I said to my wife when I exited the theater after seeing it: "That was great! I hated it!" JJ knows how to make you feel the feels, but it's all sleight of hand and audience manipulation; the story never earns it.

Personally, I'm looing forward to seeing more about Rey's adventures in the future, the future of the Jedi, and doing all of that WITHOUT the baggage that JJ brings. I hope they can do her character justice and really flesh her out more instead of just lazily recycling more tropes.

The thing about Star Wars, which I've been saying for a while now, is that it's an amazing backdrop and setting within which to tell stories. But it only matters if the stories are good and compelling. They don't all need to be as grim as Andor, but Andor proved that (1) you don't need Jedi to tell a good Star Wars tale, and (2) Star Wars works best when you ground it in characters that are written as real people and that aren't simply vehicles to get you to the next cool action sequence.
 
And just reminder... That this "male dominated" franchise just hates it so much when women are in "their" Star Wars. That characters like Mara Jade, Jaina Solo, Bastila Shan, or Nomi Sunrider are often in the top 5 or 10 characters.

Oh wait, sorry those characters 'aReN't CaNoN' so they don't count.....
 
Princess Leia. Est. 1977. Her existence is evidence enough that Star Wars has been representing strong women from the beginning. Lando Calrissian. Est. 1980. His existence is evidence enough that Star Wars has been inclusive from the beginning, as well as the Rebellion being made up of diverse alien characters, where the Empire is only human, and white only males.

While I'm on the topic, THIS was the issue of Finn being a black stormtrooper in TFA and Captain Phasma being female. It was suggested by the previous films that they wouldn't be considered for roles in the Empire because of their identity, where it would have made more sense to have them be part of the side of good because the Rebellion embraced common ideals, not identity. Disney doesn't understand that distinction and with the world being as overly sensitive to any whiff of truth, it overcorrects to the point where they lob accusations of racism or sexism at those who can make that distinction because they lack discernment. And when it comes to the sexuality or sexual proclivities of the characters? It's not necessary to even know because Star Wars is a space adventure franchise, not about the sexual awakening of the characters. Do you really want your kids to know about Phasma's sexual exploits? It's simply not relevant to an adventure.

So much of what makes a story work is understanding the genre you're working in. A crime drama is often enhanced when you introduce morally relative characters or situations. You can infuse an element like that into Star Wars and Han Solo is a great example of this. Though when the intent behind the narrative is to try and upend everything that's been established in the nearly 50 year history of this franchise by making the Empire/ Sith victims, despite being murderous fascists, and the Rebellion/ Jedi are indifferent or morally questionable, despite Obi-Wan talking about them being peace keepers before the Empire took over, then it proves a lack of understanding about what fans enjoy about this series. Role swapping this late in the game just muddies the waters.

This obsession with identity is the reason why so much of modern fiction sucks because the focus is placed on the nationality, gender, or sexual orientation of the characters or actors, at the expense of telling an interesting story. Just tell great adventure stories. Cast whoever. Fiction's primary function is about entertaining people. When you talk down to them about whatever cause you espouse, you lose them, regardless of whether or not the cause is noble. I don't need lecturing from Disney, and I certainly don't need it from other fans.

As for the discussion about these shows/ movies, the conversation devolves because the parent company incites division among it's audience, openly telling them they want to disrupt establishments and break up the norms of the past and lots of people are not cool with that, but we get labeled as conspiracy nuts by our own peers for calling it out. Star Wars is universal entertainment that brought people together, but the showrunners are determined to divide by only wanting people who think like them to consume their products and if you don't, you're the problem. Not just as an audience, but as a person. The worst part is that so many fans have bought the lie and attack their own peers by adopting the same tactics as Disney by trying to character assassinate those who stand against the cynicism that Star Wars was trying to reject from the beginning. The irony is staggering because they are actively embracing it.

The net result is that those of us who found Star Wars to be a vehicle of inspiration and wonder, are now becoming disillusioned about so many aspects of the entire thing. So let's call a spade a spade, and recognize any praise or criticism of this series belongs on Disney's shoulders, NOT the fans.
 
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Princess Leia. Est. 1977. Her existence is evidence enough that Star Wars has been representing strong women from the beginning. Lando Calrissian. Est. 1980. His existence is evidence enough that Star Wars has been inclusive from the beginning, as well as the Rebellion being made up of diverse alien characters, where the Empire is only human, and white only males.

While I'm on the topic, THIS was the issue of Finn being a black stormtrooper in TFA and Captain Phasma being female. It was suggested by the previous films that they wouldn't be considered for roles in the Empire because of their identity, where it would have made more sense to have them be part of the side of good because the Rebellion embraced common ideals, not identity. Disney doesn't understand that distinction and with the world being as overly sensitive to any whiff of truth, it overcorrects to the point where they lob accusations of racism or sexism at those who can make that distinction because they lack discernment. And when it comes to the sexuality or sexual proclivities of the characters? It's not necessary to even know because Star Wars is a space adventure franchise, not about the sexual awakening of the characters. Do you really want your kids to know about Phasma's sexual exploits? It's simply not relevant to an adventure.
While I agree, I think this could have been built upon in the narrative.

The Empire is in shambles so they had to "stoop low enough" that they had to hire non-human soldiers to fill their ranks. I could argue that Phasma always kept her armor on and maybe had a voice modulator to hide her identity and still command the First Order. It would also explain why Finn is so clueless despite being a soldier (education was withheld) and why he had to do the "****" jobs like clean the bathrooms instead of just making it a throwaway joke.

Of course dont make it blatantly about race but maybe Finn is actually half human/half alien (come one, interspecies romance has to have happened in the Star Wars verse) and while Finn can "pass" as human, Phasma is far more distinct in her alien-features which is why she wears the armor all the time and also why she picks on Finn the most. You dont need to explicitly transport modern politics into a fictional universe but can convey the sentiment (discrimination based on uncontrollable features) symbolically.

Its honestly why I hate how Disney decided to just completely return to the status quo of the First Order being the overwhelming military force and the Resistance being the gang of underprepared underdogs. Its just basic state building for the people in charge to have overwhelming military power to control the region which has been the case throughout history (which Lucas draws inspiration from). New Star Wars only proved to me that democracy is impossible to implement in the Galaxy and the new Republic was completely undeserving of their positions in the new order given the fact that they got destroyed without a fight by a bunch of incompetents (also a good reason why you shouldnt make a mockery of your villains like Hux or Kylo Ren). If the elites from the Empire like Vader or Tarkin were still alive, the Empire would have reestablished the Empire and destroyed the resistance in one movie.
 
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