Lets talk all things Star Wars

[janglesworthy]

If you want that to be real then it is, if you don't then it is not. Reality is just a suggestion and in your version of reality anything is possible. That is how cannon works is it not? It is only when official media comes out that contradicts our own personal cannon that the debates happen.

Obi-wan called it our own point of view but we know what he really means....fan cannon/blurbs created by some guy/gal for some book.

 

[Astyanax]

I remember when I was a teenager, a friend of mine who is deep into Star Wars magazines and reading all the other books in the Expanded Universe…he said that Jedi flew their ships using the force (for navigating, targeting). So when Obi-Wan Kenobi told Luke not to use his targeting system and use the force instead he was teaching him to fly his X-Wing like a Jedi would…

Was this ever a thing? A lot of his other stuff checked out on an EU level… but never heard anything close to this again til the lightsaber control bit

I guess you could almost kind of put it that way indirectly. But no, the Force does not fly their ship. But It does help them fly their ship BETTER by increasing their natural abilities: instincts, intuition, reflexes, and prediction. The Force can't make someone into a pilot who isn't already. (I'm looking at you, Rey!) Of course the Jedi uses the Force while flying (not for flying), just like they should use the Force any time they might have a need.

For example, when Anakin was the only human who can pod race without getting killed, that's not because the Force flies for him. It's because the Force HELPS guide his hands in an almost prescient way, similar to the way it helps guide the hands holding a lightsaber to block a blaster bolt. The lightsaber must already be moving before the trigger is pulled. So for Anakin, this had the effect of vastly increasing Anakin's reflexes. This is why "he was the best star pilot in the galaxy".

I think for Anakin especially, seeing the future was his particular "super Force power", even seeing just hundredths of seconds in advance to have perfect reflexes. Luke, being his son, inherited some of that. Which is why Luke and Anakin are the only ones ever being shown seeing future events (okay, Yoda, but always unsuccessfully), and why other Jedi (like Obi-Wan) are crappy pilots.

As Obi-Wan put it, the Force "partially" controls your actions, but it also obeys your commands. It's a partnership, not a surrendering.

In the case of Luke and the Death Star, no, the Force was not flying, Luke was. But he was flying "blind", similar to the way he was blind going against the remote on the Falcon. By reaching out with his feelings, he "could almost see the remote", and "almost see the exhaust port". Instruments can cause us second-guess ourselves during crunch time, so Luke turning off his targeting computer helped him focus.

 

[Astyanax]

I guess I should make one more important distinction, in case folks weren't aware. The targeting computer on the X-Wings not only targets the exhaust port, it also fires the weapons.*

This is why proto-Wedge said "that's impossible even for a computer." This means Red Leader never fired the torpedoes, but his computer did, and missed. Which means proto-Wedge was correct. Even a computer couldn't do it.

When Luke turned off his computer, it meant he would have to fire manually. And we literally see his whole body push that button!



* = This is clarified in the NPR radio drama for Star Wars.

 

[Sluis Van Shipyards]

I remember when I was a teenager, a friend of mine who is deep into Star Wars magazines and reading all the other books in the Expanded Universe…he said that Jedi flew their ships using the force (for navigating, targeting). So when Obi-Wan Kenobi told Luke not to use his targeting system and use the force instead he was teaching him to fly his X-Wing like a Jedi would…

Was this ever a thing? A lot of his other stuff checked out on an EU level… but never heard anything close to this again til the lightsaber control bit

In the EU the Jedi, particularly Luke's Jedi (Jacen, Jaina, and Anakin Solo usually) could do something called a Force meld or Battle meld which helps Jedi coordinate their fight, both on land in in fighters. They never used the Force to fly them.

 

[NeoRutty]

I do remember thinking it a neat idea that Palpatine was "controlling the Star Destroyers" at the second Death Star with his mind... and once Vader tossed him down the shaft and he exploded - that's when they started winning... I think that was in the only EU books I read... the Blue guy one... you know... with the paintings and Luuke (how would you even say that?)

What is wrong with my 47 year old brain? I'm blanking.

Heir to the Empire!

(knew I'd get there)

 

[janglesworthy]

GL always said Jedi are not superheroes, everything I hear that comes from a book makes them sound like superheroes in their abilities.

 

[Psab keel]

Introducing certain limitations actually makes them more interesting.

 

[Don93]

...By reaching out with his feelings, he ....

In light of the later movies this seemed to be an interestingly odd statement from Obi-Wan since Jedi generally avoid feelings such as, love, anger, envy, etc. It may more refer to senses than feelings.

 

[batguy]

It makes sense if you accept the arguments I was making last week, about the PT-era Jedi ideology having gone astray from the original mojo.

The Jedi teachings probably started off less rigid thousands of years earlier. Like "be mindful of your emotions and personal attachments."

By the PT era they had gradually gotten too extreme. They had gotten a lot of mileage out of the teachings in moderate doses. It's a natural progression for an organization. "Manage your emotions & attachments" drifts into "emotions & attachments are the devil." This led to the Jedi order's downfall with Anakin & Palpatine.

Ben & Yoda probably realized this by the time the poop hit the fan or in the years afterwards.


In the OT, Ben & Yoda gave Luke a set of abridged crash courses. It was inevitable. Yoda had a matter of weeks to cram in a decade of teachings. He knew Luke's weaknesses and he knew what Luke would be facing.

It was too late to change tracks to Leia. Ben was already dead and Yoda was on borrowed time. They had bet the farm on Luke. They needed Luke to beat Vader & Palpatine or else their whole religion was over and the galaxy was screwed for centuries. If they had to skew Luke's lesson plans in certain directions, well so be it. If Luke survived the big test then they could dial it back with him later. He would have the rest of his life to figure out the rest.

 

[Joek3rr]

I do remember thinking it a neat idea that Palpatine was "controlling the Star Destroyers" at the second Death Star with his mind... and once Vader tossed him down the shaft and he exploded - that's when they started winning... I think that was in the only EU books I read... the Blue guy one... you know... with the paintings and Luuke (how would you even say that?)

What is wrong with my 47 year old brain? I'm blanking.

Heir to the Empire!

(knew I'd get there)

Battle meditation is what it got called in the EU.

 

[Joek3rr]

I guess I should make one more important distinction, in case folks weren't aware. The targeting computer on the X-Wings not only targets the exhaust port, it also fires the weapons.*

This is why proto-Wedge said "that's impossible even for a computer." This means Red Leader never fired the torpedoes, but his computer did, and missed. Which means proto-Wedge was correct. Even a computer couldn't do it.

When Luke turned off his computer, it meant he would have to fire manually. And we literally see his whole body push that button!

View attachment 1843186

* = This is clarified in the NPR radio drama for Star Wars.

So basically like a Norden bombsight. That actually makes a lot of sense.

 

[Joek3rr]

It makes sense if you accept the arguments I was making last week, about the PT-era Jedi ideology having gone astray from the original mojo.

The Jedi teachings probably started off less rigid thousands of years earlier. Like "be mindful of your emotions and personal attachments."

By the PT era they had gradually gotten too extreme. They had gotten a lot of mileage out of the teachings in moderate doses. It's a natural progression for an organization. "Manage your emotions & attachments" drifts into "emotions & attachments are the devil." This led to the Jedi order's downfall with Anakin & Palpatine.

Ben & Yoda probably realized this by the time the poop hit the fan or in the years afterwards.


In the OT, Ben & Yoda gave Luke a set of abridged crash courses. It was inevitable. Yoda had a matter of weeks to cram in a decade of teachings. He knew Luke's weaknesses and he knew what Luke would be facing.

It was too late to change tracks to Leia. Ben was already dead and Yoda was on borrowed time. They had bet the farm on Luke. They needed Luke to beat Vader & Palpatine or else their whole religion was over and the galaxy was screwed for centuries. If they had to skew Luke's lesson plans in certain directions, well so be it. If Luke survived the big test then they could dial it back with him later. He would have the rest of his life to figure out the rest.

But the ideology is the same. They don't forbid emotions. They warn against the dangers of negative emotions. Fear, anger, hate, etc. But they aren't emotionaless Vulcan's ruled by logic. Forbidding attachments=/=forbidding emotions.

I took this off of Reddit. A bit cheesy with pictures, but it's a good George quote.

 

[Sluis Van Shipyards]

I do remember thinking it a neat idea that Palpatine was "controlling the Star Destroyers" at the second Death Star with his mind... and once Vader tossed him down the shaft and he exploded - that's when they started winning... I think that was in the only EU books I read... the Blue guy one... you know... with the paintings and Luuke (how would you even say that?)

What is wrong with my 47 year old brain? I'm blanking.

Heir to the Empire!

(knew I'd get there)

You're thinking of Grand Admiral Thrawn (blue guy ). Except you remembered it partially right. Captain Pallaeon was at Endor and when Palpatine died and things turned to chaos, he took control of the fleet and retreated with what was left. When Thrawn returned from the Unknown Regions, he took over and used Pallaeon's ship as his flagship.

Battle meditation is what it got called in the EU.

Yeah the Battle Meditation was mentioned more in the KOTOR era because more Jedi could do it, but even then it was very rare. In the KOTOR game, Bastila Shan used it to trap Darth Revan.

 

[batguy]

But the ideology is the same. They don't forbid emotions. They warn against the dangers of negative emotions. Fear, anger, hate, etc. But they aren't emotionaless Vulcan's ruled by logic. Forbidding attachments=/=forbidding emotions.

I took this off of Reddit. A bit cheesy with pictures, but it's a good George quote.

Maybe the early Jedi would not have forbidden personal attachments. Maybe they would not have been so dead-set against fear & anger & aggression. Most normal people take more moderate positions on these things.


The Jedi in the PT were rigid and it cost them dearly. They failed against Palpatine. I mean they failed HARD, like "Your whole stupid 1000-year-old belief system & organization had one job!"

They failed because they forbade Anakin's attachments instead of teaching him to handle them in a healthy way. And for some unexplained reason they couldn't sense the Sith danger. (Maybe because they had gotten too good at blocking out negative emotions and it blinded them to the negative forces right in front of them. I think that's probably what Lucas had in mind.)

Then later in the OT, Luke succeeded because he wasn't so rigid. He used anger & aggression & attachments to beat Vader in the throne room. He loved his father & sister so much that he was able to redeem Vader and beat Palpatine with it. If Luke had been up to Jedi Order standards then he would have probably failed in the throne room in ROTJ.

 

[Mara Jade's Father]

Is it just me or do I see more Deadpool than Anakin?

https://www.sideshow.com/collectibles/star-wars-darth-vader-battle-damaged-hot-toys-913612?var&sscid=71k8_u55dl&utm_campaign=393189&utm_content=71k8_u55dl&utm_medium=referral&utm_source=shareasale

 

[AJTaliesen]

Is it just me or do I see more Deadpool than Anakin?

Not the worst crossover idea I’ve heard.

 

[janglesworthy]

Hot Toys really stepped it up with this....

 

[Joek3rr]

Maybe the early Jedi would not have forbidden personal attachments. Maybe they would not have been so dead-set against fear & anger & aggression. Most normal people take more moderate positions on these things.

You meant that you shouldn't let fear and anger control you? Rather you should be in control of your fear and anger. That's what the Jedi teach. That's George's universe. Fear and anger are the dark side. And the dark side leads to suffering. Hard stop.

The Jedi in the PT were rigid and it cost them dearly. They failed against Palpatine. I mean they failed HARD, like "Your whole stupid 1000-year-old belief system & organization had one job!"

They failed because they forbade Anakin's attachments instead of teaching him to handle them in a healthy way.

You mean telling Anakin that he shouldn't be ruled by his emotions. And that he can't be possessive, and he needs to let go. Only by letting go can you truly find enlightenment. That's not a new philosophy. George is pretty clear that Anakin's fall is on him. Because he was selfish and greedy. (Its Dave that blames the Jedi.)

And for some unexplained reason they couldn't sense the Sith danger. (Maybe because they had gotten too good at blocking out negative emotions and it blinded them to the negative forces right in front of them. I think that's probably what Lucas had in mind.)

George pretty plainly lays out that the Dark Side of the Force is clouding any precognitive abilities of the Jedi. It's nothing to do with them. But what Palpatine is doing in secret. That can't "see" because the Dark Side is shrouding everything.

Then later in the OT, Luke succeeded because he wasn't so rigid. He used anger & aggression & attachments to beat Vader in the throne room.

The OT is very very explicit. Anger and aggression are Dark Side. And that's bad. By using his anger and aggression Luke is following his father's path. It's when he rejects the anger and aggression that he wins. Luke does what his father couldn't. When given the chance to let his fear, and anger control him. He says 'no.' Even if it costs his life. The idea of being able to use your fear and anger without corruption is pure "fanon." It's not what balance means. And it's not a part of George's universe.

This is all the same teaching. To say Yoda and the Jedi were wrong in the Prequels is to say Yoda in the OT was wrong. And that undermines everything trying to be taught. It shifts Yoda from the wise mentor, to the cliche the student/child knows better then the teacher/parent. But that's not Star Wars. That's not the mythic Hero's Journey. That's not how these stories work out. They student believes they know better. But in the end, they learn how wrong they are.

He loved his father & sister so much that he was able to redeem Vader and beat Palpatine with it. If Luke had been up to Jedi Order standards then he would have probably failed in the throne room in ROTJ.

This is my 'go to' question for everyone when we're discussing this topic. Why did Luke fail in the cave?

 

[batguy]

I think Luke failed in the cave because Lucas/Kurtz/Kershner wanted to foreshadow the movie's ending. It salted the idea of Luke's general failure and the plot twist.

The Force-message of ANH was "trust your feelings, Luke". In ESB it became "You're too reckless. Get some control over your emotions" which is virtually the opposite. In ROTJ Luke finally had enough seasoning and balance between the two.

This is all the same teaching. To say Yoda and the Jedi were wrong in the Prequels is to say Yoda in the OT was wrong. And that undermines everything trying to be taught. It shifts Yoda from the wise mentor, to the cliche the student/child knows better then the teacher/parent. But that's not Star Wars. That's not the mythic Hero's Journey. That's not how these stories work out. They student believes they know better. But in the end, they learn how wrong they are.

I'm not arguing that Luke "knew better" than Yoda. I'm arguing that Yoda might have tailored & abridged his teachings to fit who Luke was, and to fit the battle that Luke was facing.

I'm saying the Jedi were not entirely right in the PT. I'm saying they weren't firing on all cylinders. That's why Palpatine was able to wipe them out. I'd rather assign the blame for at least some bit of that failure on them because there is some logic to it and suits the tragic nature of that trilogy.

Tragic stories are not about characters doing everything right and the sky falls on them anyway. That's sheer pathos. Tragedies are about characters making mistakes for understandable reasons. If Palpatine wiped out the whole Jedi order while they did everything right, then it's more like Dark Helmet saying "Evil will always triumph because good is dumb." There's no blaming that one on Anakin, he had barely even turned dark by then. Palpatine just whupped the Jedis in Ep#3. Either the Jedis did something wrong or else the whole entire religion was no match for one bad guy. (Weren't they highly-respected good guys?)



As for the severity of Yoda's mistakes, I'm open to negotiation.

But Yoda did make mistakes. He let Anakin be trained (against his own instincts) in Ep#1. He failed to sense Palpatine rising to power. He failed to take out Dooku at the end of Ep#2. He failed to defeat Palpatine in Ep#3. The PT Yoda was not the flawless sage we got in 1980-83. He was more 3-dimensional and fallible.

It was necessary for the whole PT story to work. If Palpatine was the evil Joker of the PT then Yoda was the closest thing to Batman. If your tragic storyline is that the Joker takes over Gotham then you have to explain why Batman didn't stop him. Batman has to fail in some way. If Batman did everything right and the Joker still won then we're back to Dark Helmet pathos.

 

[Usagi Pilgrim]

Just saw these & wanted to share, especially with Halliwax!