Joek3rr

Master Member
If a Stormtrooper is hanging out in deep space nowhere near a star, the outside temperature is about 3 Kelvin. This can go up to almost 400 Kelvin (about 250°F/120°C) in direct sunlight in the vicinity of Earth, hotter closer to a sun like ours or near a more energetic star. The heating and cooling systems of Stormtrooper armor have to be able to regulate that, and cope with tenuous up to probably a couple times standard atmospheric pressure. The coldest temperature ever recorded on Earth was at Vostok Station in Antarctica, being -89.4°C -- or 183.75 Kelvin. Comfortably in the middle of the established range Stormtrooper armor would have to function within in space. When they were filming in Norway in 1979, it was one of the nastiest winter storms on record, and a positively balmy 239 Kelvin by comparison.

I've seen the argument that cold in snow is different from cold in vacuum. This is true. Vacuum is worse. Space is about the most caustic environment known for many materials. Things get brittle and crack that never do on Earth. This is why I can see standard Stormtrooper armor being used in both icy and sandy conditions -- it's already designed to take worse. The exception I allow for Sandtroopers is "hardening" to keep sand out. As anyone who's ever gone hiking or camping in the desert knows -- let alone spent some time in the desert for military purposes -- sand gets places you never knew existed. While Stormtrooper armor works in the desert, I'm willing to bet those 'troopers spent weeks finding sand in places it should not have been physically possible to get.
I guess I'm thinking it's all about insulation. And the amounts needed stay warm or cool.

If you look at, for instance, the Gemini suits. Or the insulating layers on the LM. It's very thin layers. That's all that's needed. Where's there's no atmosphere. Set the LM in -30f temperatures, with the wind blowing, even with strong heater inside, it's going to be cold in there. In northern climates, houses are built with 6 inches of insulation in the walls. I can't uses a mylar and kapton blanket to insulate a house. I can however insulate a spacecraft, with my layered mylar and kapton blanket. Because that's all I need a thin reflective layer. Because there no atmosphere, the heat loss is very slow. And in the same way, the heat transference to a person or spacecraft is slight, when the reflective material is spaced away.

The Stormtroopers armor would work great at keeping the trooper cool, being white. And we can imagine that it's insulated away from the black bodysuit to slow any transference. Though the black areas would heat up.

Of course we're messing with the fuzzy divide between science and science fiction.
All of the stuff Snowtrooper armor is described as having makes perfect sense and is totally fitting... for an Imperial infantryman or a Stormtrooper. We already know Stormtrooper armor can take worse. And I've seen enough movies of what wind-driven snow can do in the Winter in Antarctica. It can be almost as bad as blowing sand in hot deserts for getting in where it isn't wanted. But unlike sand, it melts. Especially given the clear conditions on Hoth when the Empire attacked, I can't see Stormtrooper armor being fussed by the weather there.
I mean realistically Stormtrooper should probably do it all. But it looks sooo cool to have all these different types. And Snowtroopers just look amazing.
 

Joek3rr

Master Member
Not sure that’s true either if you look at what happened to the Apollo 13 crew.


I read the link and it agrees with what I wrote in that space is not a void of nothingness, it has particles and radiation and the cosmic background radiation gives it a minimum temperature of 2.7 Kelvins.
Heat it lost, just at slower rate, if I understand it correctly. On Apollo 13, the lower the CM got was 38F and LM stayed between 49 and 55.
 

Riceball

Master Member
That's been a thing for me for some time. It didn't bother me when I first saw ESB in 1980 -- I was five (almost six). But by the time I was in high school and had the movies on VHS and had the RPG, and -- just after high school -- the CCG... It began to niggle that the Snowtroopers made no sense. I could get the Sandtroopers, though I figured it was just regular Stormtroopers in kit better suited to prolonged operations under pounding sun, in sand, and needing to be optimized for that hostile environment -- not that there were a bunch of desert-ops Stormtroopers in their specialized gear sitting around in the belly of a Star Destroyer until they happened to be needed. But the Snowtroopers bothered me. We'd seen in the original film that Stormtroopers could operate for extended periods in hard vacuum and the cold of space. So why did they need specialized gear for a little snow right smack in the middle of their standard armor's normal operating temperature range?

More recently, I've come to feel that they work better as Imperial Infantry, and that there were regular Stormtroopers on some or all of the AT-ATs in addition to the infantrymen we saw.

Come the Prequels and Clone Wars series, George earned the epithet others had hung on him back in the '80s: "Toy Boy". The sheer number of granular variations in clone types and colors and such is, frankly, ridiculous. I can make an argument that the light-infantry Phase I armor we saw used as snow and flamethrower gear evolved into the light-infantry armor worn by the Galactic Marines, and that evolved, after the formation of the Empire, into various light-infantry armor types worn by the Imperial Army (the Mudtroopers on Mimban and the Snowtroopers on Hoth). But many are just redundant. The ARF Troopers fill an already-filled rôle. The ARC Troopers and Republic Commandos are uncomfortably parallel, and I liked that the old EU streamlined the two types into the singular Imperial Commandos. But then we got way more pilot types than are justified, we got random specialty troops that weren't justified (like the "Beehive" Troopers).

For the most part, I am pleased with the post-Disney depictions. They make more sense than not -- although the visual storytelling gives a clearer picture than the filmmakers intended. The "Shoretroopers", "Range Troopers", "Tank Drivers", "AT-ACT Drivers", and "Death Troopers" are all ISB. I could make the argument the "Patrol Trooper" in Solo is, too. There are a bunch of shared elements that tie them together the same way the Stormtrooper helmet and armor are repeated in their pilots and armored-vehicle drivers. The ISB maintained itself as a quasi-autonomous organization within Imperial hierarchy, complete with their own troops and droids. The Shore Troopers are their analogue to the Stormtroopers. The Tank Drivers are armored agents a la Kallus in Rebels, but later and with closed helmets. The Range Troopers are heavy infantry optimized for more hostile conditions than on Scarif. The Death Troopers are similar to the Shadow Stormtroopers, but cranked to 11 because the ISB is the ISB. Elite spec-ops troops and bodyguards for VIPs within the ISB or that the ISB deems warrant them. They're also the only ones who really merit the name they're given, even if that might not be what the ISB calls them in-universe.

More recently, though, they've been getting stupid again. The Purge Trooper feels appropriate as a parallel development of the Death Trooper, as the Inquisitorius and ISB are very definitely parallel organizations -- just with different foci. I can see the ISB developing the Purge Trooper program for the Inquisitorius so their troops didn't keep getting borrowed. But their woeful underuse was one of many problems with the Kenobi show. I hope they get a better outing in the next Fallen Order game.
I've thought about the whole notion of all these different kinds of Stormtroopers lately, it just seems ridiculous for the Empire to have so many different kinds of Stormtroopers specialized for every kind of environment possible. It seems kind of wasteful and very expensive having that many troops that do nothing but wait for something to happen in a specific environment. To me, it makes more sense that all of these different kinds of Troopers are just regular Stormtroopers who get special gear and weapons as needed. The only exception to this would be the Scout Troopers who we see operate besides regular Stormtroopers and with their role, it makes sense to have specially trained troops to act as scouts.
 

Inquisitor Peregrinus

Master Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
Heat it lost, just at slower rate, if I understand it correctly. On Apollo 13, the lower the CM got was 38F and LM stayed between 49 and 55.
That's why the Apollo missions, en route to and from the moon, set the CSM stack rotating, so one side wasn't baking in sunlight the whole time. Also, all of the landing sites were in full day for the entirety of surface ops, so the LM was being bombarded by sunlight with no atmospheric protection the entire time. The astronauts on the surface were basically in a JiffyPop container.
 

Inquisitor Peregrinus

Master Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
I've thought about the whole notion of all these different kinds of Stormtroopers lately, it just seems ridiculous for the Empire to have so many different kinds of Stormtroopers specialized for every kind of environment possible. It seems kind of wasteful and very expensive having that many troops that do nothing but wait for something to happen in a specific environment. To me, it makes more sense that all of these different kinds of Troopers are just regular Stormtroopers who get special gear and weapons as needed. The only exception to this would be the Scout Troopers who we see operate besides regular Stormtroopers and with their role, it makes sense to have specially trained troops to act as scouts.
I compiled lists on my now-dead hard-drive -- so until October of '10 -- of Trek and Wars uniforms, organized into a Uniform Code. I'd done a preliminary breakdown of what, at the time, were specialty troops, and what were wardrobe options for regular troops. On for-instance: Shadow designation. The Imperial Stormtrooper Corps uniforms are black. Low-level-enlisted personnel in black jumpsuits with kabuto helmets. Mid-level enlisted personnel in two-piece uniforms with kabuto helmets. Senior enlisted personnel in two-piece uniforms with caps. Commissioned officers in two-piece uniforms, caps, and wearing rank insignia. The battle armor is white for standard troopers and force-recon, black for pilots, and light gray for armored-vehicle drivers. Those standard troops, though...

Oversimplifying, but my take is that the guys in white are the rawest. Even the Incinerator Troopers would be trained Specialists. The pilots and drivers get advanced training and, like with some old-school real-world military aviation, you enlist as a Flight Sergeant, say, and graduate flight school as a low-grade commissioned officer.

But once the Storm and Scout Troopers make it through a long enough term, they get graduated to the higher-grade black armor -- the Shadow Stormtroopers and Shadow Scouts. The Royal Guards -- who already meet strict competency and loyalty requirements, also have Shadow Guards. There are hints the Royal Guards have some Force affinity, and that is brought out in the Shadow Guards. Each also has an even higher tier above Shadow. The seniormost Stormtroopers are elevated to Nova Troopers and are a bit like the Buckingham Palace Guards or the President's Marine Bodyguards. Besides grandfathered-in Imperial Commandos, senior Shadow Scouts can train to be Storm Commandos. And the highest of the Emperor's guards are the Sovereign Protectors.

Sandtrooper gear, EVO Troopers and Magma Troopers, Rad Troopers, Space Troopers -- that's all gear for specific operational theaters.

With Shore, Patrol, Range, and Purge Troopers, and AT-ACT and Tank Drivers all being over in the ISB/Inquisitorius, that makes things a bit less ridonkulous for the range of Stormtrooper armors.
 

Riceball

Master Member
This is a bit old, but in case some of you haven't seen it yet, here's a behind the scenes look at the OT Special Edition. There's not much that's new in it but it does confirm a lot of the reasons behind the changes, but not all.

 

blewis17

Master Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
This is a bit old, but in case some of you haven't seen it yet, here's a behind the scenes look at the OT Special Edition. There's not much that's new in it but it does confirm a lot of the reasons behind the changes, but not all.

So, the opening scene of the Tantive IV/Star Destroyer chase was reshot in the 1990s for the IMAX film Special Effects: Anything Can Happen (1996). ... but good luck trying to find a decent version online


Here is the French dub clip of the Tantive IV scene:
 
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Somerset

Well-Known Member
For the VHS release of the special editions we had in the 90s you had to fast-forward through all that behind-the-scenes stuff to get to the actual films. It was what, 6 or 7 years before the OT DVDs came out and I could get straight to the start!
 

CB2001

Master Member
For the VHS release of the special editions we had in the 90s you had to fast-forward through all that behind-the-scenes stuff to get to the actual films. It was what, 6 or 7 years before the OT DVDs came out and I could get straight to the start!
Some of the BTS stuff were often on the end of the VHS, as well as anything else the distributor wanted to include. For example, for the VHS release of The Faculty, a music video for "Another Brick in the Wall (Part 2)" by Class of '99 was featured at the end (though released at the same time as the VHS, the DVD release did not include the music video, nor have any other subsequent releases on DVD and Blu-Ray as far as I'm aware).
 

Riceball

Master Member
And for something a little different, here;s a video showing what Star Wars might have looked like had Stanley Kubrik directed it. I'ts . . . um, very artistic.

 

Joek3rr

Master Member
I've been on theRPF for 5 years.......not nearly enough projects finished.....and too many started:oops:

Though here's something I whipped up this past week. As you guys may or may not know I've been a LEGO Star Wars fan for most of my life. Getting back into the EU had got me wondering what it might have looked like had LEGO made some EU inspired sets. This is my take on the classic Z-95, in a 1999/2000 style.
Z-95.png
 

zmanz

Well-Known Member
Hi everyone! Here’s a hot take (lol), let me know what you guys think:

- the prequels are good Star Wars movie. They’re coherent. They fit well with the episodes that follow, they’re part of Lucas’s vision. That said they’re not great sci fi movies, (but the third one comes close, I like it a lot actually). But jar jar, the dialog, some of the effects, it’s hit and miss.

- The sequels are, overall sadly, bad star wars movies. For all the reasons we have heard before: Mary sue, no plan, all that. But they are good sci fi movies: special effects, action, the scope of it all, I enjoyed some of the humor even.

I know it’s simplistic, but I thought there’s a bit of an opposite image going on here, just an idea.
 

Joek3rr

Master Member
Hi everyone! Here’s a hot take (lol), let me know what you guys think:

- the prequels are good Star Wars movie. They’re coherent. They fit well with the episodes that follow, they’re part of Lucas’s vision. That said they’re not great sci fi movies, (but the third one comes close, I like it a lot actually). But jar jar, the dialog, some of the effects, it’s hit and miss.

- The sequels are, overall sadly, bad star wars movies. For all the reasons we have heard before: Mary sue, no plan, all that. But they are good sci fi movies: special effects, action, the scope of it all, I enjoyed some of the humor even.

I know it’s simplistic, but I thought there’s a bit of an opposite image going on here, just an idea.
With the exception of bits of TLJ, I wouldn't say either trilogy are really good sci fi films. A New Hope is the most sci fi of them all. But the rest are pretty much just fantasy set in space, with some sci fi trappings. There's just too much space magic going on.
 

Joek3rr

Master Member
Okay I need help trying to investigate some obscure lore.

The other day I was reading about the X-wing on Legends page on Wookieepedia. And I come across this line.
Screenshot_20230127-143950.png


"The X-wing was originally designed by the Incom Corporation by the Empire..."

I read this. Than I read again. I'm thinking "I don't remember that in any of my reference or source books." (NOTE: there's no source listed)

So I started looking through everything I could find. The old Star wars.com Databank entry, West End Games and Fantasy Flight sourcebooks, video game manuals, and guides, the Essential and NEW Essential guides to Vehicles and Vessels, and the Incredible Cross-Sections book. Nothing about Incom originally designing it for the Empire. In fact the Incredible Cross-Sections book says it was secret project. And at least one of the sourcebooks says it was specifically made for the Rebellion, not the Empire.
Screenshot_20230127-145522.png


So kept digging. I found a copy of X-wing Marks the Spot. The comic which introduced Vors Voorhorian, the designer of the X-wing. That didn't have anything. The best I could find the Darklighter arc in the Star Wars: Empire comic. Which gives a reason as to why the Empire isn't using the X-wing. Suggesting at least the ship was available to the Empire. But that seems to be after Incom was nationalized. Then there is the in-universe advertisement for the X-wing.
Screenshot_20230127-115554.png

Again though, this is probably after the company was nationalized. And nothing specifically stating that X-wing was designed for the Empire first.


Now here comes the curved ball. After the 2014 reboot, the in-universe background for the X-wing is that it was originally designed for the Empire.... Did Pablo just copy, what seems to be incorrect Legends lore from Wookieepedia? Lol

So where in EU does this idea come from, which shows up first in 2003 on the X-wing's Wikipedia page, before being migrated over the Wookieepedia in 2005, that the X-wing was designed originally for the Empire? Is there a game or book that I'm missing? For the life of me I can't find a source.
 

JoeG

Master Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
Could've sworn that detail about Incom\X-Wing was first mentioned either in the first Zahn books or another EU novel that came not long after. The reason I say that is because those were the only EU novels I ever read and this bit of trivia sounds familiar to me.
 

Inquisitor Peregrinus

Master Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
I remember it from the '80s, too. A bit like the Mauser C96, the company was hoping for a military contract and the Empire decided to go with Sienar's cheaper TIE series. When Incom was nationalized, they would be producing TIEs, a la the various companies making various other companies' aircraft in WWII, due to need. For the T-65 design team, that was the last straw.

I remember it quite clearly. I'll dig tonight.
 

Joek3rr

Master Member
I remember it from the '80s, too. A bit like the Mauser C96, the company was hoping for a military contract and the Empire decided to go with Sienar's cheaper TIE series. When Incom was nationalized, they would be producing TIEs, a la the various companies making various other companies' aircraft in WWII, due to need. For the T-65 design team, that was the last straw.

I remember it quite clearly. I'll dig tonight.
I vaguely remember reading something too, years ago in a book at the library. But I can't think of what that might have been.
 

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