Is Darth Vader's saber blade painted (ANH) & blade flexing.

Discussion in 'Star Wars Costumes and Props' started by Mouse Vader, Feb 18, 2019.

  1. Mara Jade's Father

    Mara Jade's Father Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Weirdest fetish video ever. :p
     
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  2. halliwax

    halliwax Legendary Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Got me laughing out loud on that one
     
  3. Mouse Vader

    Mouse Vader Active Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Flatterer .
     
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  4. kpax

    kpax Sr Member

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    I would think a balsa wood rod would snap from simply a quick movement let alone contact.

    As for spinning, I would think the rod and attachment would need to be perfectly centered or the tip would wobble wildly. A 3 foot rod off center by only a few millimeters at the base would cause a huge wobble at the tip. The lightsaber rods don’t seem to move much and remain essentially straight.
     
  5. halliwax

    halliwax Legendary Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    I can attest... it does need to be dead on center
     
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  6. kpax

    kpax Sr Member

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    Nice. Thanks for the test. Yours seem a bit thicker than the film versions but I guess they could survive contact. And the ANH fight wasn’t terribly aggressive.
     
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  7. Mouse Vader

    Mouse Vader Active Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    My video post is bottom of pg2, so you may have missed my comments there. These rods are as they arrived 16mm untapered. I will be doing 'proper' tests once I have a motorised hilt & have tapered, painted & scotchlited blades. Tapered blades will start from 16mm diam base.
     
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  8. Mouse Vader

    Mouse Vader Active Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    There has been something niggling me in this thread since post #46 about whether the V2 emitter rotates in ANH. I checked haliwax's ref's but couldn't see one way or the other but I was sure I'd seen something, while looking for something else, where the emitter wasn't moving. I've found out where now - 'birth of the lightsaber' Ytube vid from 8.52 on you can see the emitter face - there are marks near the edge, notably at the bottom, that remain still despite OB1 moving the hilt about & if you go frame by frame it's clear the blade is rotating. I've strung a few frames together to show this - look for where the cursor is pointing for the mark.

    So this is evidence that V2 emitter didn't move for ANH? if so are we sure it moves on the prop as it is now? if so how did that happen?
    or is this not the V2?

    NSEF01.jpeg
    NSEF02.jpeg
     
  9. JunkSabers1138

    JunkSabers1138 Sr Member

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    DUDE! I was JUST having this nagging feeling just the other day when I was looking at ALL available reference for the stunt blades, and whilst watching the clip of Obi saying the "You cant win/If you strike me down" line I noticed the little white mark NOT moving on the emitter and Alec's hand choked up upon the emitter, which would have prevented rotation anyway due to the friction/pressure involved, and yet the blade IS flickering with the black stripe as if it WERE spinning. HhhhWHUT!?!?!

    Definitely an eye opening moment and I was worried I was either just seeing things or if it was an artifact present in the film, but I wanted to wait until someone else noticed this to make sure I wasn't crazy! :p ;)

    Very tantalizing... just goes to show that the more the learn about these things, the more we realize how little we truly know after all.
     
  10. JunkSabers1138

    JunkSabers1138 Sr Member

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    That said, if you look at the Obi solo shots of the tail end of their fight outside of the hangar bay, I DO believe I can see the full emitter spinning, but it's too small in the frame to make a definitive judgment call
     
  11. Mara Jade's Father

    Mara Jade's Father Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Isn’t that white mark on the top of the Faux cane area?
     
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  12. Dann

    Dann Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    The who the what area??
     
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  13. kpax

    kpax Sr Member

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    Sorry, this is not my area of expertise but what is the reasoning that the blade rotates? Aren't the blades rotoscoped and "painted" with movement. The only thing I remember anyone saying about the blades was that they were covered with reflective material similar to projection screen s that the camera would pick up the correct position and perspective.


    If the bade is rotoscoped or painted over wouldn't this obscure the real blade as was the intention? Isn't the rotation or spin just a painted artifact?


    What would a spinning blade do except break ? ; )

    Excuse my lack of knowledge...
     
  14. Mouse Vader

    Mouse Vader Active Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Sorry I don't know what you mean by 'Faux cane area'. Screen grabs below show the same mark which is clearly on the emitter face.

    Which is why I'm only dealing with the cited clip, which is pretty clear. There are similar marks at app. 9 &11 o'clock.

    Screenshot_2019-03-11_23-25-35.png Screenshot_2019-03-11_23-25-18.png
     
  15. Mara Jade's Father

    Mara Jade's Father Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    That was a typo. Faux "Vane". Meaning on the hero version, the area that is the spinning vane of the grenade section (but does not spin on the prop).
     
  16. Mara Jade's Father

    Mara Jade's Father Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    If some of the old "making of" videos are true. The idea was that the rotating blades with alternating reflective material were going to be the complete in camera effect. However once they saw it on film, Lucas thought it looked like spinning rods with reflective material on them rather than a blade of light energy. So then they decided to rotoscope it. Something like that.
     
  17. kurtyboy

    kurtyboy Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    If there is a shot or two in there where the emitter (i.e. the replica balance pipe) is spinning, then I haven't spotted it. In 4K it's very clear that marks and highlights are dead still. The "nipple" (or blade sleeve as I call it) on the other hand, is definitely spinning.

    Kpax: Obi-Wan's blade is definitely spinning, which is why there are wires running up Alec Guinness' sleeve and the blade flickers. Vader's is not spinning and does not flicker.
     
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  18. Mouse Vader

    Mouse Vader Active Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Kpax
    There is lots of good evidence that the stunt sabers in ANH had motors that rotated the blade. If you watch the above mentioned video from app. 3.05 you can here the motors. There is a black stripe on the blade (as well as reflective material) that, interacting with the frame rate of the camera, produces flicker. This can be seen at 3.05 & 4.40 same vid.

    Because G.Lucas didn't like how this turned out, trouble with hilts & blades & because you could only film this effect from limited angles it was decided to overlay rotoscoping. Lucas liked this so much the motorised blade was dumped for ESB which also saw the demise of the reflective material.

    We're all here to learn, I knew nothing about lightsabers a few weeks ago, I've been on a very steep curve.
     
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  19. Mara Jade's Father

    Mara Jade's Father Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Using a picture of the Luke Return of the Jedi V2, I am illustrating where I think you see the white spot. It believe it is on one of the two sections I've marked. I believe that the angle you are viewing from your screen shots is in such a way that the angle plus low lighting makes it look very close to the emitter from that perspective.

    Mark-Hamill-Pop-Culture-Quest-Return-of-the-Jedi-Lightsaber-Brandon-Alinger-Prop-Store-FI.jpg
     
  20. Mouse Vader

    Mouse Vader Active Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    See my full screen grabs - Alec G has his hand fully over the 'weather vane', marks are on the emitter face.
     
  21. Mara Jade's Father

    Mara Jade's Father Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    I see it as he has his hands around the vane section but not covering the top of the vane section
     
  22. Mouse Vader

    Mouse Vader Active Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Interesting view as given how Alec G usually holds the V2 the large dent on the emitter would be roughly in the right place for dot in question. Also look at the blade holder 'nipple' a thin black line running right around it, so separate from the emitter itself? & my note about where he's holding it in the video.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2019
  23. Mouse Vader

    Mouse Vader Active Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    My V2 at the same angle - direct comparison to screen grab.
    DSC08792.JPG

    I know in the Hamil video the owner seems to rotate the whole emitter when he's discussing it (but don't actually see it move , only his hand). I'm saying it doesn't move or is loose now but is fixed for ANH. It didn't have the gaffa tape round it in the film & we don't know what is going on under it now.
     
  24. kpax

    kpax Sr Member

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    thanks for the info all ! ; )

    I'll have to study up.

    BTW... anyone ever notice that Luke (Hamill), a right hander... often held the lightsaber lefty? He would still swing it righty but the reverse grip often looked wonky... I wonder why he changed his grip from use to use...

    8fff004b70c486822da2e0092e8092ba.gif
     
  25. Mouse Vader

    Mouse Vader Active Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Completely missed the white wire going up his sleeve :eek:. Too busy looking at spot.
     
  26. Mara Jade's Father

    Mara Jade's Father Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    I see what you're talking about from some of the other angles.
     
  27. JunkSabers1138

    JunkSabers1138 Sr Member

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    Here's another possibility, could the emitter be spinning at such a rate that the mark ends up in more or less the same position whenever the next frame of film captures it and thus it merely appears as if it isn't rotating similarly to how a helicoper's rotors appear to be still to the naked eye despite rotating at high RPM?
     
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  28. Mouse Vader

    Mouse Vader Active Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Kurtyboy's got this stuff at much better resolution & if he's saying he's seeing the same thing then surely it's there.

    Anyone got any footage actually showing the emitter definitely rotating?
     
  29. JunkSabers1138

    JunkSabers1138 Sr Member

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    Nahh... on second thought, that's a stupid idea, because we wouldn't see the black line on the blade ever because it would always be in the same spot too.

    Do we have a definitive source of information as to the inner workings of the original prop's construction in that part of its anatomy?
     
  30. Mouse Vader

    Mouse Vader Active Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    You mean strobing. Problem with that as an explanation is the blade would rotate at the same speed & also appear stationary & it's not doing that.
    (& you'd not get the desired flickering blade effect). From other footage blade turns about one turn per 4 frames or 360 RPM (this can vary but that's the most common).

    you beat me too it.
     
  31. Mouse Vader

    Mouse Vader Active Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Not to my knowledge but I've not been on RPM long. I'm a pesky newbie, not towing the line.
     
  32. Mara Jade's Father

    Mara Jade's Father Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    I swear I heard this on a documentary or interview about filming the scene but I cannot find any info on it.

    I remember a story about filming the scene and that one day they came in and the blades were missing so they just faked it.

    Anyone heard that before?

    Which brings me to another question. Since stories I have heard that the decided to abandon the in camera effect for rotoscoping during filming (if true) would it be possible that during close up shots and/or dialog shots, that they do not spin the blades. Is there any raw footage to support or debunk this thought?
     
  33. Mara Jade's Father

    Mara Jade's Father Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    To me, the angle for that particular screen grab is closer to this...

    IMG_2747.jpg
     
  34. Mouse Vader

    Mouse Vader Active Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Sorry to hijack your pic but this black line is really interesting.
    Nippleline.jpg

    I've seen some in a take of the hanger duel, OB1's facing DV, it's not dialog or close up but they're not actually clashing blades, the black stripe is visible along the top of OB1's blade & doesn't move. Something similar with the tavern scene. It's late here so I'll try & sort out it out tomorrow.

    Look at Alec G's two handed grip & how much of the hilt you can see...
     
  35. Mara Jade's Father

    Mara Jade's Father Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Well in that screen gray I am referencing, his finger looks to the side of the vane section, not covering it.

    When I go to your series of images, it looks as if the top row, his finger is to the side of the vane. In your next row, it then appears the finger moves closer to the emitter and then covers the the top edge of the vane.
     
  36. Mouse Vader

    Mouse Vader Active Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Your hilt axis would give shown blade angle which doesn't match grab pic.

    IMG_2747expo.jpg

    I've dotted round the emitter face disc here.

    NSE01x.jpeg
     
  37. thd9791

    thd9791 Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Wow, I've missed a lot :D

    Never knew there were scenes where Obi's was still too. Neat!

    We are absolutely sure of the V2's construction from the outside, and from a basic standpoint inside. This is from those videos of it once Brandon got ahold of it, and from Brandon himself. The whole emitter is separate, with set screws underneath the emitter lip, in the nipple and they are affixed to the steel rod running down the neck, that has something attached to it to keep the emitter on inside the upper grip.
     
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  38. Mara Jade's Father

    Mara Jade's Father Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Like I said "closer to this". I am not stating it is exact match but I can tell you as the guy holding the hilt and know where the emitter was pointing, Your projected path is way off.
     
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  39. Mouse Vader

    Mouse Vader Active Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    I also said there is more than one mark. This (marked) 11 o'clock dot is where on the hilt ? & the one at app 9 o'clock (I've not marked it) They all track the same. View the video frame by frame as I did.

    AltDot.jpeg
     
  40. Mara Jade's Father

    Mara Jade's Father Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    I know. I was just trying to explain why I initially thought what I did.
     
  41. Mouse Vader

    Mouse Vader Active Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Looks like we both got a little side tracked & it's well past my bedtime.
     
  42. halliwax

    halliwax Legendary Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    So... I’ve noticed this as well. But, I can assure you the emitter was spinning under its own power at one time.

    And I’ve posted this on other threads. There’s black and white footage of them dueling with out any rotoscoping “only a master of evil darth” is the famous part I quote where you can clearly see the entire emitter spinning

    And the emitter isn’t 100% true so it is a little wobbly

    I have been watching the DVD’s lately and I can’t say I see the emitter spinning.. BUT is this something they fixed when they touched up the Blu-ray’s/DVD’s?

    But I clearly agree, that one scene there is a spec there, the blade still flickers.. I’m curious if the spec we see is reflection of light?

    Like Tom said. We know 100% the emitter was built to spin with by the motor, Brandon explains he took it apart and examined how it worked and there is even signs of how the motor was mounted inside

    Scott has held the thing and also confirms the emitter spins freely

    Check out the cantina scene too, the v2 was used there and I believe that scene was filmed first..

    There is black and white footage of that too, and he turns the emitter on real fast and then shuts it off while he’s looking around like “don’t mess with me”
     
  43. halliwax

    halliwax Legendary Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Fun fact, “only a master of evil darth” for about 2 seconds they left in the sound of the motor spinning, listen you can hear it come and go

    The black and white video the motor sound is there the whole time, fairly loud
     
  44. Mouse Vader

    Mouse Vader Active Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Do you mean 'birth of the lightsaber' from 3.05 onwards? I have just watched that yet again & see no evidence that the emitter spins. If you are referring to the glare bleed over from the blade/emitter 'join' then it's just as likely it's the blades motion you're seeing, looking at the emitter only I see no motion.

    &
    From what's been put here that only tells me how the V2 is now. The film clip is showing a static emitter which means we either have a) a motorised saber that's not the V2 or b) evidence that the V2 was altered post ANH to the current set up. or c) tampering from the 'clean up'.
    PLEASE can someone point me at these video's / posts, I'd love to see them before I make any other comment.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2019
  45. kurtyboy

    kurtyboy Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Was the V3 also used? Is it known which shots used which?
     
  46. thd9791

    thd9791 Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    That's a good question. I'm not sure - but I do know the emitters of the V3 and V2 are different. The top plate is much wider on the v3, I've had an idea for a while that they produced a separate emitter for the V2 or lathed up the one they cut off the cast
     
  47. vadermania

    vadermania Well-Known Member

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    That‘s what I think, too - that the V2 emitter is a separate piece produced on a lathe and was then married to the cast aluminum „body“ of the V2. Jon told me that a group of people was working on the special effects sabers for ANH, so it could be possible that they used different ways to create the mechanical effect. What if - just a theory - during ANH production, only the plug/nipple/insert in the V2 emitter rotated together with the blade? Could they probably have used some sort of a shaft and tube system? That was my first idea when I thought about how they created the spinning blade on the Obi saber.
     
  48. vadermania

    vadermania Well-Known Member

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    BTW I‘m pretty much convinced now that the only square lightsaber blade in ANH was the one used on Lukes stunt saber in Ben‘s hut.

    Sorry for the OT.
     
  49. Mouse Vader

    Mouse Vader Active Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Just what I've been thinking.

    I'm personally discounting my above option c) 'clean up' tampering, because Alec G has his hand/fingers either on he emitter or the emitter shaft thoughout this sequence which, at the very least, would apply breaking to the motor but the RPM is just as normal. Whatever this saber is, the emitter is static but it has a motorised rotating blade. From what we can see there is no way to tell if it's the V2 or another V2 type.
     
  50. Mouse Vader

    Mouse Vader Active Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    ...Oh yes I found another bendy

    Screenshot_2019-03-13_11-32-18.png
     
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