Iron Man 3 (Post-release)
- Thread starter Vivek
- Start date
A lot of people here are mentioning the fact that the US is getting films like STID and IM3 later than the rest of the world. IM3’s BO performance illustrates just why the studios have substantially changed their film release date policy.
At nearly $950 million (and counting!!!) 70% of the box office has come from overseas takings, so that answers two questions really - why the Mandarins character was changed and why most blockbusters get the overseas release first.
Nearly all films these days ,particularly since the Russian and Chinese markets have opened up, make a huge proportion of their box office net outside of the US. And the studios have well woken up to the fact that the hypercritical feedback from the fans based "at home" is a two edged sword in this internet age. Get it wrong and it can kill the film effectively dead on delivery both in the US and outside before it even gets a chance to breath. “John Carter” for example , which was actually a perfectly reasonable bit of entertainment was effectively destroyed by the poor reviews and “hate” campaign that was generated before it went overseas, where it still managed to do reasonable business.
If IM3 had been released the other way around chances are the wave of anti Mandarin plot twist sentiment would have probably effected the takings. As it was the “twist” enabled it to play very well abroad. Can you image how it might have performed IF the Mandarin had remained the same as in the original stories???? Now, thanks to the changes there is no doubt its going to break the billion mark, which is good news for everyone hoping for a sequel, particularly Robert Downey Juniors agent and Bank Manager.
At nearly $950 million (and counting!!!) 70% of the box office has come from overseas takings, so that answers two questions really - why the Mandarins character was changed and why most blockbusters get the overseas release first.
Nearly all films these days ,particularly since the Russian and Chinese markets have opened up, make a huge proportion of their box office net outside of the US. And the studios have well woken up to the fact that the hypercritical feedback from the fans based "at home" is a two edged sword in this internet age. Get it wrong and it can kill the film effectively dead on delivery both in the US and outside before it even gets a chance to breath. “John Carter” for example , which was actually a perfectly reasonable bit of entertainment was effectively destroyed by the poor reviews and “hate” campaign that was generated before it went overseas, where it still managed to do reasonable business.
If IM3 had been released the other way around chances are the wave of anti Mandarin plot twist sentiment would have probably effected the takings. As it was the “twist” enabled it to play very well abroad. Can you image how it might have performed IF the Mandarin had remained the same as in the original stories???? Now, thanks to the changes there is no doubt its going to break the billion mark, which is good news for everyone hoping for a sequel, particularly Robert Downey Juniors agent and Bank Manager.
I have to disagree. In my opinion, the character of Tony Stark / Iron Man is one of the things the creators of Iron Man 3 got completely wrong. To me the Iron Man suits are as much a part of the character as Tony Stark is. In the previous movies the Iron Man armor was almost indestructible yet in Iron Man 3 if the armor didn't fall apart the armors got torn apart like they were made out of cardboard. I just got the feeling they were trying too hard to dumb the armors down to make the "Tony Stark doesn't need his armor" storyline look plausible. In the previous movies Tony Stark was basically a borderline alcoholic, yet in IM 3 there was absolutely no mention of alcohol. Instead we get PTSD. If Tony Stark did develop PTSD in Avengers he would almost certainly be a full blown alcoholic in IM 3. At times watching IM 3 I couldn't help to think whether the writers and director even read the comic books or even saw the previous movies. Even Tony Starks' one liners, which added to his character in the previous movies, sometimes seemed forced in IM3 and fell flat.
As for the Mandarin twist. I am by no means an uber Iron Man fan. I didn't even know that the Mandarin was Iron Man's arch enemy until I watched the special features on the IM 1 DVD. But I have to say I am on the side of the comic book fans on this one. They basically took the best villain in the Iron Man universe and turned him into a punchline for the sake of comedy. To me being a big Star Wars fan I would compare it to Darth Vader telling Luke Skywalker that he is his father at the end of The Empire Strikes Back only then when Luke Skywalker removes Dath Vader's helmet at the end of Return of the Jedi it be Jar Jar Binks saying - "Meesa yousa dada Lukie". To me that would be a complete smack in the face. And that's exactly what the Iron Man comic book fans got.
As for the story line. The story line in IM 3 has so many holes it makes a sieve look like a bucket. Not only that, but because of a major plot hole they actually created a black hole that's going to suck in future Iron Man plots. I'll explain. In making the suits remotely controllable, essentially making them drones (which we already had in IM2) they created a "Superman paradox". A "Superman paradox" is when you have a hero that is invincible and cannot be killed by an enemy. Because of this there is no tension in scenes when you know the hero can't be killed. Whatever perilous situation Iron Man might find himself in future Iron Man movies, all you'll be able to think is "why didn't he just send a remotely controlled suit instead. He could be home doing chinups". The makers of IM3 basically destroyed the need for Tony Stark to be in the suit, essentially killing off the character of Iron Man. I can believe that Josh Whedon was pissed after seeing IM 3. I'll bet there are major re-writes going on for The Avengers 2 as we speak.
I understand that with all movies there has to be a measure of suspension of disbelief by the moviegoer. And in the case of comic book movies more so. But a movie also has to be able to withstand a measure of scrutiny. In the case of IM 3 as soon as you start pulling on a thread (plot hole) in the storyline, it all seems to unravel. I liked both previous IM movies and at no point in the movies did I feel their stories didn't make sense. Sadly I can't say the same for IM 3.
If IM3 was a standalone movie and not the third installment in a series I probably would give it a rating of 7.5/10 just because of entertainment value alone. But seeing it as the third in a series, in my opinion at least, it fails miserably.
My expectations going in to see IM3 probably was too high but if I had known beforehand that I would get a "Michael Bay" movie instead I probably would have lowered them.
Last edited:
cosmic_x
Sr Member
completely agree with the above statement!
Movie was okay, nothing special, plot was ridiculously wrong, why they have to do this? If they want to use a storyline from the comics, they should at least try to follow that, not develop something new which just doesn't fit. And Im not talking about Mandarin only but also about the Extremis story
Very disappointed about the plot.
And yes, the iron man armor was very easy to destroy this time, just like small toys
Movie was okay, nothing special, plot was ridiculously wrong, why they have to do this? If they want to use a storyline from the comics, they should at least try to follow that, not develop something new which just doesn't fit. And Im not talking about Mandarin only but also about the Extremis story
Very disappointed about the plot.
And yes, the iron man armor was very easy to destroy this time, just like small toys
Onephattsi2
Well-Known Member
One thing you guys are missing, yes at times the older iron man armors seemed Indestructible, but at others, it was very fragile.... Yes it took a direct shot was a tank and many many bullets, even had a sidewinder explode directly behind it, and was unphased .... But remember that iron monger squashed the helmet like a tin can, and almost collapsed the suit onto tony in the final scene in IM1... And the mark 5 just tore to pieces against whiplash in the race car scene in IM2.. And also the suit took a full on barrage from Thor's hammer in the avengers, yet when Thor grabbed the arm, he crushed it like a tin can.. so it is very believable that the extremists soldiers could rip apart the suits with their bare hands, as it seems the suits did very well against explosions, but very poorly in hand to hand combat.....
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Vinom11
Well-Known Member
The helmet getting crushed by Iron Monger and the arm by Thor have always been a minor gripe of mine. No armor that could withstand the kinetic energy of a tank shell to the face without incident would be able to be crushed so easily. Minor gripes I can deal with but the extremis soldiers were shredding the armor with minimal effort. They were so overpowered that they reduced Ironman to basically just running from them through the whole fight. The feeling of Ironman being a powerful superhero wasn't even there anymore.
But by taking the power of the suits away, we're drawn more into the story of is Tony the hero, or is Iron Man really just the suit. The ending shows incredible growth on Tony's part by showing that even without the suit on, he keeps fighting for the one he loves. Tony Stark of the first Iron Man film wasn't that guy.
Onephattsi2
Well-Known Member
I personally loved IM3... I really think the fragility (is that even a word, lol) of the suits without tony in them really just played Into the idea of "the man makes the suit" route that the movie took. I can't wait to add it to my collection, and also to my movie rotation for watching while I am working on my projects...
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Mr Mold Maker
Master Member
After seeing the movie again and giving it some time to think it over, I liked most of the movie.
My concerns are for what will happen in The Avengers sequel.
The only way I'd think I'd like to see it is if the whole ending of IM3 was disregarded, he still has his arc reactor and 42 suits.
I'd also like them to just blow right by that flying armor stuff.
It was cool the first few times they did it, then it just got predictable, and quite annoying.
But as for the suits, they didn't get the justice they deserve. He went on and on about how they were a part of him and at the end he basically went "LOLJK" and slapped the audience in the face, for a crappy fireworks scene.
My concerns are for what will happen in The Avengers sequel.
The only way I'd think I'd like to see it is if the whole ending of IM3 was disregarded, he still has his arc reactor and 42 suits.
I'd also like them to just blow right by that flying armor stuff.
It was cool the first few times they did it, then it just got predictable, and quite annoying.
But as for the suits, they didn't get the justice they deserve. He went on and on about how they were a part of him and at the end he basically went "LOLJK" and slapped the audience in the face, for a crappy fireworks scene.
JD
Master Member
First and foremost... most of you are pointing out alleged errors and alleged plot holes in a movie with a guy in a flying (not) iron suit that shoots out "repulsor rays" from his palms and chest. He has computers/software way more advanced than anyone's seen. So... yeah, plot holes.
If we're going to debate the comic vs. the movie, let's not forget that RDJr's portrayal of a smart alecky, know-it-all isn't really that close to the Tony Stark personality from the comics. Yeah, they changed the Mandarin - but, there was still a pretty big set up of the Mandarin in the first movie - I wouldn't rule a potential reappearance. But, I liked the bait and switch - yeah, we could've have your typical, token, generic terrorist bad guy and called him the Mandarin...
The best part of this fanboy debate is that people are saying he wasn't in the armor enough... these are the same guys that'd be lambasting the film if it was Iron Man in the suit battling bad guys saying "all he does is fly and fight in the suit all the time."
Was it a perfect film? No. Was it good? Yes. Judging by the 7.7 rating on IMdb, the 78%/83% on Rotten Tomatoes and the $949 million it's made worldwide (granted, this is the same audience that's made Avatar #1 grossing movie of all time).
If we're going to debate the comic vs. the movie, let's not forget that RDJr's portrayal of a smart alecky, know-it-all isn't really that close to the Tony Stark personality from the comics. Yeah, they changed the Mandarin - but, there was still a pretty big set up of the Mandarin in the first movie - I wouldn't rule a potential reappearance. But, I liked the bait and switch - yeah, we could've have your typical, token, generic terrorist bad guy and called him the Mandarin...
The best part of this fanboy debate is that people are saying he wasn't in the armor enough... these are the same guys that'd be lambasting the film if it was Iron Man in the suit battling bad guys saying "all he does is fly and fight in the suit all the time."
Was it a perfect film? No. Was it good? Yes. Judging by the 7.7 rating on IMdb, the 78%/83% on Rotten Tomatoes and the $949 million it's made worldwide (granted, this is the same audience that's made Avatar #1 grossing movie of all time).
coofunkcurly
Sr Member
So would you agree since The Dark Knight Rises is 8.6 on imdb and 87%/92% on Rotten Tomatoes that it's a better movie? :lol I'm just messing with you. I don't want this thread to head that direction but couldn't resist given your vocal disdain for the Nolan movies.
But in all seriousness that is related to another issue I had with the movie. Right from the dark and moody trailers I couldn't help but be reminded of TDKR. Now those trailers turned out to be quite deceiving thankfully but there were still far too many similarities for me. They are certainly coincidental and probably more a result of summer movies being so formulaic these days but this is an interesting read nonetheless:
The Similarities Between Iron Man 3 and The Dark Knight Rises - IGN
Onephattsi2
Well-Known Member
Good point. Makes the final line of the film (pre-credits) make more sense to me, as well as explains him going on siege in Miami with his improvised gear. I'm still baffled why he didn't wait, what, 15 more minutes for the armor to get there, but hey, it's a movie.
Saw the film last night, a few random thoughts:
lol at the security guard "I don't even like working here. They are SO weird," haha.
Killian's Talking Villain explanation to the President about oil or blame or something sounded like babble from the drunk guy at the end of the bar. Really his entire plan made no sense to me, I'm not sure what his whole point was with the terror campaign. Or maybe I'm thinking "That's it?" at what I heard. I'll eventually cobble enough of it together from repeat viewings.
I was disappointed not to hear Black Sabbath's Iron Man song at the end of the film, missed that.
Lots of product placement, it was distracting.
The film was really really loud for some reason, don't know if that was just a local showing issue or what. (cough-cough, aging viewer, cough-cough)
Some of my thoughts on the way home spurred by the film were about the nature and balance of being a protector and provider for those you have relationships with. The Vice-President for his daughter. Tony for Pepper and Happy, and the reverse. The parents of the boy. Rhodes and his responsibility for the president. And so on.
Overall, good film. Some things you like, some things you let it ride. Thumbs-up. I would like to see the film again sooner or later - somewhere via theater, airplane / hotel, or blu-ray.
Jordy
Member
What happened in the first 10 minutes? KillIian got stood up by Stark. Not very compelling character development.
Alright, just back from my second viewing and I picked up a lot of things I didn't the first time. I blame the 3D and the excitement for this. It was slightly less funny, but I enjoyed more the action, especially the ending.
It seems a lot of you folks did not get everything, or did not pay attention. Understandable, it sometimes goes fast, but there is NOT nearly as many plot holes as you claim...
First off, Killian. I've seen complains about how he has too many motives or so. No he doesn't. His ONLY motive is to sell as many extremis soldier as he can. How ? By creating supply and demand, economy 101. And how is he going to do that ? By using in one hand his terrorist organisation, the 10 rings and their "leader" to create terror, and using his puppet the Vice president in the other hand, to create the need for protection, and therefore justifying the need of extremis soldier. How is he going to put the vice president in the president's chair ? By killing the actual president. That's where the oil tahing intervene. The actual president has apparently made sure some big corporations got away with a massive oil tanker leak at one point, giving the "Mandarin" a pretext to kill him (by oil) that "would look good on TV". Him dead, the vice president becomes president, and his puppet is in place. Now in case you missed it, the vice president acts as a puppet because of his daughter, missing a limb, and probably in the waiting list for the extremis virus if daddy plays nice. All of this by remaining in the shadows. It's actually a rather elaborate plan for a "simple" villain, don't you think ? Does he have a grudge against Tony ? Maybe, but if Tony hadn't declare war to him on TV, he probably would never have taken such dramatic actions. He actually needs him to stabilise Extremis. Since Maya couldnt figure out how to do it by herself. She didn't want Tony dead neither by the way, just his help. Eventually using Pepper as a motivation to make him help by force. Killian killing her was a bit of a dumb move, I'll give you that, but since he got Tony now, she wasn't needed anymore. After that, all his plans went to hell of course, thanks to Tony, which explains why he tried to kill him until Pepper put him down for good.
The charging armor problem now, it's logical that the armors have their own power source, since they can be used without tony inside. His arc was never designed to power a suit for an extended time by the way, just his electro-magnet. Remember IM1 "power his heart for 15 lifetimes or something big for 15 minutes". So while his own arc can indeed power a suit, they need their own arc for prolonged use. And my guess is he's not too keen on using his own arc very much, after nearly dying twice from doing it.
Weak armors : they indeed seemed weaker than in the past. But, notice how the prototype can take a heavy beating when Tony is in it ? The problem intervene while the armors are empty, they somehow are not as strong. Even with this, the extremis soldier can burn at metal melting point temperature, no wonder they can do so damage to the suits. Plain old regular villain wouldn't have lasted a minute against those suits. Look at the people in the plain ! There stood no chance against Savin in the Patriot. And Savin didn't even know how to use the weapons, he only used his palm repulsors, fists and a gun found on a bodyguard.
The Patriot being controlled by Killian : that was already said, AIM worked on it for the branding, like Hammer did in IM2. The armor was locked and inaccessible while on Rhodey, although somehow neutralised (I suspect by frying the circuits temporary thanks to extremis power) but once killian cooked him out, they probably got access to the software and reprogrammed it. Why ? To get close to the president, as a trojan horse. Why put the president in it ? Because the thing is remote controlled by AIM, what is the president gonna do in it ? He's trapped like a rat...
Unfamiliar people using suits easily : they don't. All what Pepper can do is walk in it and open/close the faceplate. She doesn't even know how to activate the repulsors. Walking in it shouldn't be difficult, it's an exoskeleton suit after all, it's designed to help moving... Savin in the patriot now. He's a bit more capable, but he had his hands on it before. Even then, he can walk, somewhat fly, and barely use the repulsors as weapons (he looked surprises after blasting a guy with it). And he couldn't use any other weapons. Why else would he punch people and shoot them with gun if he could fire that cannon ?
Why didn't Tony immediately jumped in one of the 40 something suits in the basement while he was under attack in his house and Pepper had the MK42 ? I strongly believe he was actually going to do that, right until half his house collapsed on the trap door. After that it was inaccessible until the cranes cleared it at the end. It's convenient for the movie plot, but it's not a plot hole... Why didn't one of the suit blow it from the inside ? One, explosion in confined underground spaces don't do well at all for what's inside, two the trap door looks a solid foot thick, and is most likely VERY strong to prevent anything from happening from the outside, and therefore the inside too.
That's all for now, but if you see anything else, please speak out, I'll see if I remember it from the movie. I have a very good eye for details and a very good memory when I want. Careful though, I'm not saying there are no plot holes, just that what most people see as plot holes are not, they just didn't understand or simply missed it.
It seems a lot of you folks did not get everything, or did not pay attention. Understandable, it sometimes goes fast, but there is NOT nearly as many plot holes as you claim...
First off, Killian. I've seen complains about how he has too many motives or so. No he doesn't. His ONLY motive is to sell as many extremis soldier as he can. How ? By creating supply and demand, economy 101. And how is he going to do that ? By using in one hand his terrorist organisation, the 10 rings and their "leader" to create terror, and using his puppet the Vice president in the other hand, to create the need for protection, and therefore justifying the need of extremis soldier. How is he going to put the vice president in the president's chair ? By killing the actual president. That's where the oil tahing intervene. The actual president has apparently made sure some big corporations got away with a massive oil tanker leak at one point, giving the "Mandarin" a pretext to kill him (by oil) that "would look good on TV". Him dead, the vice president becomes president, and his puppet is in place. Now in case you missed it, the vice president acts as a puppet because of his daughter, missing a limb, and probably in the waiting list for the extremis virus if daddy plays nice. All of this by remaining in the shadows. It's actually a rather elaborate plan for a "simple" villain, don't you think ? Does he have a grudge against Tony ? Maybe, but if Tony hadn't declare war to him on TV, he probably would never have taken such dramatic actions. He actually needs him to stabilise Extremis. Since Maya couldnt figure out how to do it by herself. She didn't want Tony dead neither by the way, just his help. Eventually using Pepper as a motivation to make him help by force. Killian killing her was a bit of a dumb move, I'll give you that, but since he got Tony now, she wasn't needed anymore. After that, all his plans went to hell of course, thanks to Tony, which explains why he tried to kill him until Pepper put him down for good.
The charging armor problem now, it's logical that the armors have their own power source, since they can be used without tony inside. His arc was never designed to power a suit for an extended time by the way, just his electro-magnet. Remember IM1 "power his heart for 15 lifetimes or something big for 15 minutes". So while his own arc can indeed power a suit, they need their own arc for prolonged use. And my guess is he's not too keen on using his own arc very much, after nearly dying twice from doing it.
Weak armors : they indeed seemed weaker than in the past. But, notice how the prototype can take a heavy beating when Tony is in it ? The problem intervene while the armors are empty, they somehow are not as strong. Even with this, the extremis soldier can burn at metal melting point temperature, no wonder they can do so damage to the suits. Plain old regular villain wouldn't have lasted a minute against those suits. Look at the people in the plain ! There stood no chance against Savin in the Patriot. And Savin didn't even know how to use the weapons, he only used his palm repulsors, fists and a gun found on a bodyguard.
The Patriot being controlled by Killian : that was already said, AIM worked on it for the branding, like Hammer did in IM2. The armor was locked and inaccessible while on Rhodey, although somehow neutralised (I suspect by frying the circuits temporary thanks to extremis power) but once killian cooked him out, they probably got access to the software and reprogrammed it. Why ? To get close to the president, as a trojan horse. Why put the president in it ? Because the thing is remote controlled by AIM, what is the president gonna do in it ? He's trapped like a rat...
Unfamiliar people using suits easily : they don't. All what Pepper can do is walk in it and open/close the faceplate. She doesn't even know how to activate the repulsors. Walking in it shouldn't be difficult, it's an exoskeleton suit after all, it's designed to help moving... Savin in the patriot now. He's a bit more capable, but he had his hands on it before. Even then, he can walk, somewhat fly, and barely use the repulsors as weapons (he looked surprises after blasting a guy with it). And he couldn't use any other weapons. Why else would he punch people and shoot them with gun if he could fire that cannon ?
Why didn't Tony immediately jumped in one of the 40 something suits in the basement while he was under attack in his house and Pepper had the MK42 ? I strongly believe he was actually going to do that, right until half his house collapsed on the trap door. After that it was inaccessible until the cranes cleared it at the end. It's convenient for the movie plot, but it's not a plot hole... Why didn't one of the suit blow it from the inside ? One, explosion in confined underground spaces don't do well at all for what's inside, two the trap door looks a solid foot thick, and is most likely VERY strong to prevent anything from happening from the outside, and therefore the inside too.
That's all for now, but if you see anything else, please speak out, I'll see if I remember it from the movie. I have a very good eye for details and a very good memory when I want. Careful though, I'm not saying there are no plot holes, just that what most people see as plot holes are not, they just didn't understand or simply missed it.
Laspector
Master Member
Had no problem with the Mandarin twist. Never liked the character to begin with. Always thought he was just a Ming the Merciless rip off anyway.
Movie fell into the DKR zone. Not enough of Tony in the suit.
Movie also fell into the Temple of Doom syndrome--"Let's get some stupid cute kid in there".
As for the prehensile suit stuff--ehh. While I loved the suitcase suit in IM2 and the really cool ways he got the suit on and off in the Avengers, now they have just moved into the Transformer zone (which I hate).
My final review is the same as DKR--"Good movie, just not a good Batman (or in this case, Iron Man) movie.
Movie fell into the DKR zone. Not enough of Tony in the suit.
Movie also fell into the Temple of Doom syndrome--"Let's get some stupid cute kid in there".
As for the prehensile suit stuff--ehh. While I loved the suitcase suit in IM2 and the really cool ways he got the suit on and off in the Avengers, now they have just moved into the Transformer zone (which I hate).
My final review is the same as DKR--"Good movie, just not a good Batman (or in this case, Iron Man) movie.
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