Indiana Jones - why don't you have a problem with this?!

Discussion in 'Entertainment and Movie Talk' started by Sluis Van Shipyards, Feb 12, 2018.

  1. Sluis Van Shipyards

    Sluis Van Shipyards Master Member

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    Everyone trashes the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull for the refrigerator scene. How about in Raiders when Indy climbs aboard the * sub? I doubt the Nazis let him in, so what'd he do just hold on and hold his breath?
     
  2. Gordon Gekko

    Gordon Gekko Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Uhhh.... Yeah! It's Indy.
     
  3. modelcitizen

    modelcitizen Sr Member

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    yeah lucky they didn't decide to submerge. but then there are ghosts that can melt your face, too....
     
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  4. Apollo

    Apollo Legendary Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Everyone I knew trashed that scene when the movie first came out and still do


     
  5. Moviefreak

    Moviefreak Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Wasn’t there a deleted scene that actually filled in the answers to this question? I thought I read somewhere that there was more to the scene and it made it more believable? Anyone recall this?
     
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  6. modelcitizen

    modelcitizen Sr Member

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    i think it was the "illustrated novel" of the movie that had him tying himself to the periscope with his whip (graphic novel/comic book).
     
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  7. Treadwell

    Treadwell Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    lashed himself to the periscope. The whip is still on the periscope when the sub is in the hangar.
     

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  8. batguy

    batguy Sr Member

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    Indy tying himself to the periscope does nothing more to explain that scene than if KOTCS had shown him tying the fridge door shut. It's still a plot hole a mile wide.
     
  9. Treadwell

    Treadwell Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    The OP asked what he did, and that is the answer.
     
  10. SethS

    SethS Master Member

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    Haha-- I guess he just had it on authority they weren't going to dive. To be fair, he did admit he was making it up as he went.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Also, I thought this was going to be about Indy 5... which I don't think I am okay with.
     
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  11. ALLEY

    ALLEY Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Well...there is a real difference on the "Scale of Screenwriting Stupidity" that we are talking about here, right?

    Indy lashing himself to a periscope and riding it for miles into a secret * submarine pen? Highly unlikely but not all-out stupid in set-up.

    Indy riding out a nuclear blast and being thrown miles while inside a Frigidaire and coming out without horrific life-ending injuries? That's just flat out idiotic.

    It's really not the same at all in my humble opinion.

    There is a clear relationship between the size of fan rage and the idiocy of execution of any film.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2018
  12. MrSouthpaw

    MrSouthpaw Sr Member

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    Unlike a true submarine, which is designed to stay underwater. U-boats were basically surface ships that could briefly dive. They were faster while surfaced and usually only dived when conducting specific operations or when attacked.

    The odds are that the ship would have stayed surfaced to get to where it was going ASAP. Indy's biggest problem would be exposure to wind/cold after being wet.
     
  13. Gimpdiggity

    Gimpdiggity Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    This.

    They ran on batteries when submerged, so to go any real distance they'd stay surfaced to run on diesel.
     
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  14. batguy

    batguy Sr Member

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    The sub ride is technically survivable and the fridge incident isn't. I will grant that. But the sub ride is still a long, long way from being plausible.

    The exposure to sun & cold & wind would have sapped Indy's strength before long. He would probably have gotten sunburned pretty badly based on how bright it looked when he was climbing onto the sub. And for going at least 15-20 mph the whole way, he would have needed to literally be tied to that periscope so he could go totally limp and still stay there with his head above water. I'm sorry but that is not what the BTS shots show.

    It would have taken maybe two dozen feet of rope because you can't just secure him by the waist or something. He would need to be held in at least two places, like maybe his chest & ankles. It might take 3+ places to prevent him from slumping down to a sitting position. The rope would need to be thick to avoid cutting off circulation and abrading his clothes & skin too much where it held him. All this means the rope would be big & heavy (where was it when he was getting onto the sub?). Indy's (magical length-changing) whip would not cover it. Then Indy would arrive at the * island base in no condition to kick any more * for a while. Etc.

    Indy still fell from a plane and landed on a raft in TOD. They were tearing people's hearts out manually while they were still alive. This franchise has never respected the limits of the human body.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2018
  15. Solo4114

    Solo4114 Master Member

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    For the same reasons why people don't complain about John McClain surviving the various physical stunts he undertook in Die Hard, but find the villains in Die Hard 4 to be completely unbelievable in the amount of punishment they take.

    1. There's an overall degree of verisimilitude that permeates Raiders, and which (I gather) is lost in Kingdom.

    2. The latter films make use of CGI to actually show you how he survives, instead of implying it and letting your mind fill in the blanks. That means your mind is forced to confront the unreality of the situation, instead of being able to just kinda skip past it and move on to the next scene. I actually think Raiders works better because you don't see the deleted sequence of Indy lashed to the periscope. But you can't not see the "nuke the fridge" sequence, so you have to mentally deal with it, and it's a lot harder to excuse it away based on what you do see.

    3. The degree of unbelievability is much higher in the latter films. I mean, it's unbelievable in any case, but within the film universe and the in-universe "rules" established about what Indy and McClain can endure, you accept the earlier films. Both heroes take punishment and show it in a way that heroes in other movies might not, which is where the "verisimilitude" comes in. We expect our movie heroes to shrug off stuff that would take out a normal person; that's what makes them heroes. What makes Indy and John McClain heroes of a higher calibre is that they don't merely "shrug off" injuries, but rather persevere in spite of them, which makes them appear more heroic. But all of that is different from when people survive stuff that is patently absurd, like literally being hit by a car or cooked by the heat of a thermonuclear blast inside a lead-lined refrigerator while being hurled through the air and impacting on the ground multiple times and then wandering out to witness the mushroom cloud and take a deep breath of nuclear fallout. There's "suspension of disbelief" and then there's "complete and total bulls***."

    4. The original movies are simply better, more entertaining films. In general, people overlook the stuff that might bug them (plot holes, inconsistencies, silly bits, etc.) if the core film itself is entertaining. They forgive a film's flaws if they're already entertained because they just aren't paying close attention to them. When a film isn't entertaining, for whatever reason, the flaws are more noticeable, because your mind is already disengaged from the film itself, and instead is "present" to nitpick things. The things we nitpick frequently (aren't the real underlying problems with the films; they're the things we noticed because of the underlying problems with the films. ANH has doofy, silly, or poorly written or performed moments in it, but we ignore those because it's a great movie on the whole. TPM? Not so much. Although, to be fair, in TPM's case, I don't think there's any way to "ignore" Jar Jar.
     
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  16. matty matt

    matty matt Sr Member

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    It's kind of goofy, but you guys covered it. He lashed himself to the periscope and hoped for the best. The U-Boat has no reason to fully submerge. They're going from somewhere in the Mediterranean to an island in the Mediterranean. It's not like crossing the Atlantic. Plus, I've got no problem with the fridge scene. Theses movies aren't exactly realistic.
     
  17. Bryancd

    Bryancd Master Member

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    Unless he was out there for upwards of a week he could easily survive this trip.
     
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  18. Apollo

    Apollo Legendary Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    No way in hell, Hypothermia can and will kill you, trust me on that one


     
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  19. Bryancd

    Bryancd Master Member

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    Only if he got wet which based on what is in the film he doesn’t. They are above water at the start of the sequence and when they approach the island. It might have been a few hours for all we know. It’s certainly not a plot hole.
     
  20. batguy

    batguy Sr Member

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    The fact that the Ark was put onto a submarine rather than a surface ship . . . it implies to the audience that there will be some submerging going on.

    I know, this can be rationalized around. But still, the whole scene would have played a lot better if Indy & the Ark had simply gotten to the island on a surface ship. And the filmmakers went to some trouble to get a sub (from Das Boot) and film in a sub dock.
     
  21. Axlotl

    Axlotl Master Member

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    Here's the route the sub took after Indy boarded (as far as I can gather from the sketchy map shown in the film):

    IndySubRide.jpg

    According to the key at the bottom right, the sub travelled about 200 miles.
    If the average cruise speed of a diesel sub is 20 knots (about 23mph) then it took the sub 8.5 to 9 hours to reach it's destination.

    EDIT: Nope. I was wrong. Had another look at the film. This is the route:

    IndyMap2.jpg

    It's closer to 400 to 450 miles. Around 20 hours travel time.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2018
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  22. Apollo

    Apollo Legendary Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    :lol C'mon Man he would have gotten wet just from the spray or mist and or the constant pounding of the waves :lol



     
  23. Bryancd

    Bryancd Master Member

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    No sir! He could tuck up into the front of the conning tower and be 10 feet above the waves and protected from the wind!
     

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  24. Bones_68

    Bones_68 Sr Member

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    I have it on good authority that Indy was carrying a hat-umbrella in his back pocket BEFORE he boarded the sub.


    action wear umbrella.jpg
     
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  25. Apollo

    Apollo Legendary Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    You have never been out to sea have you? :lol

    The tower is underwater as you can clearly see in the photos :D


    - - - Updated - - -

    I heard he was wearing his rubbers as well ;)


     
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  26. Malibu139

    Malibu139 Well-Known Member

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    He is seen climbing out of the water onto the sub, he is wet. I guess he could dry out over 20 hours though. I can buy into the not submerging for speed theory though.
    Either way its awesome.
     
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  27. Victor3

    Victor3 Well-Known Member

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    Because the ship that Indy & Marion were on was intercepted by a U-boat?

    I love that photo of Indy on the periscope, he looks like he REALLY regrets this decision.
     
  28. Apollo

    Apollo Legendary Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Again In the scene that was cut he was in the water ;)


     
  29. Riceball

    Riceball Sr Member

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    20 knots surfaced is generous, a U-boat could do maybe 14 - 16 knots surfaced, at best, maybe 18 for later models. But all this means is that it would have taken them longer to get from point A to point B is all.
     
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  30. Axlotl

    Axlotl Master Member

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    More time for Indy to get hypothermic and die. :D

    Most of his trip would have been at night, and he would have been half-submerged in water.
    Ernie Pyle, a US war correspondent in WWII who was in the North Africa campaign, said it got so cold at night that when they woke in the mornings their canteens were frozen solid.
    Of course that was the winter time - I don't know what time of year Indy's adventure took place in.
     
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  31. HanSolo2187

    HanSolo2187 Active Member

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    The comic-book adaptation (as others have stated) showed Indy tied to the periscope, basically passed-out from exhaustion for this journey. What has always bugged me was - how did he detach from the periscope, swim up to shore and get in the sub-hangar BEFORE the actual sub did?

    Funny (to me) that this is what bugs me versus him surviving the 400 mile journey to the island.
     
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  32. Strikerkc

    Strikerkc Well-Known Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    I'm pretty sure the movie shows him climbing up the side of the U-Boat, soaking wet, as it pulls away; being that he swam the relatively short distance between the two boats.

    Alos, he's even soaking wet in the picture you posted as proof he could do it without getting wet :p
     
  33. Apollo

    Apollo Legendary Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Or be Shark bait!

    Hey Herbie Look meat on a stick first one there gets the first bite! :lol


     
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  34. Bryancd

    Bryancd Master Member

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    He would be dry with in an hour sitting under that sun!
     
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  35. matty matt

    matty matt Sr Member

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    This is a situation where the fans are putting way more thought into something than the filmmakers did. You can tear these movies apart with just a little bit of scrutiny.
     
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  36. Bones_68

    Bones_68 Sr Member

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    Now we have to add dehydration to the list!
     
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  37. Bryancd

    Bryancd Master Member

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    That would take days!
     
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  38. Axlotl

    Axlotl Master Member

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    It's sort of a matter of suspension of disbelief, though, isn't it?
    I mean, I totally buy the box full of face-melting ghosts. Maybe that could happen. I don't know.
    But a 400 mile ride hanging on to the outside of a submarine? I don't think that could happen.

    I still enjoy the hell out of Raiders, though. It's still one of the best movies ever made.
     
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  39. Bryancd

    Bryancd Master Member

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    I can swim 2.4 Miles, get on a bike and ride 112 Miles, get off and run 26.2 Miles in under 10 hours and survive, he can sit his butt on a conning tower for a day or two. :)
     
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  40. Solos blaster

    Solos blaster Sr Member

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    In the wipe/ transition from the travel to the hangar you can see the model of Indy lashed to the periscope IN the film. There's also a pic of Indy and the sun in the "making of book".
     
  41. Laspector

    Laspector Sr Member

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    This is what I've never understood about this submarine controversy. People tend to think "not submerged" means just the periscope sticking up above water. If the sub never submerged this whole "lashing himself to the periscope" argument is pointless. If it never submerged Indy could have easily survived on the conning tower for hours, even a few days probably.
     
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  42. matty matt

    matty matt Sr Member

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    See, to me, if you can buy the face melt/ghost stuff, you shouldn't even bat an eye at a guy hanging onto a submarine. A bit outlandish? Sure, but completely within the realm of possibility. But I understand what you're saying.
     
  43. matty matt

    matty matt Sr Member

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    The "lashing" thing comes from the deleted footage, which has him literally sticking out of the water. It was ridiculous and probably why they cut it out. The movie really leaves it up to your imagination how he actually survived.

    untitled.png
     
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  44. Laspector

    Laspector Sr Member

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    Agreed. That was probably why it was cut out.

    Granted, if the distance of the journey was more than a day or so he would be severely dehydrated.

    The whole fiasco could have been avoided if Spielberg had just used a boat. But wasn't that the sub that was used in Das Boot? Wasn't that the real reason they used it. He just wanted it?
     
  45. Solos blaster

    Solos blaster Sr Member

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    Here's the pic taken from the movie that survived the edit.
    IMG_0093.JPG
     
  46. cboath

    cboath Master Member

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    Just out of curiosity...has anyone actually cruised the Mediterranean? Looks like the map starts a bit off the coast of greece. Does the water actually get cold enough to induce hypothermia in the med? Granted it's been a couple years since I considered taking a cruise there, but there weren't any 'pack your coats, it gets cold at night' type stuff.
     
  47. Bryancd

    Bryancd Master Member

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    You will die of hypothermia in water that’s 90 degrees. Water will make your body temp. the same as it.
     
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  48. Gimpdiggity

    Gimpdiggity Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    From what I can see, based on time of year and location, the average temperature of the sea is anywhere between 55 and 83 degrees. Hypothermia can set in at about 65 degrees when submerged in water.

    Since we we don't know the time of year, or the exact location, it's pretty easy to suggest that hypothermia wouldn't be an issue. People have survived much longer times lost at sea than the 25-30 hours he would have been on the boat.

    Like you, I've never really seen much suggesting I should bring winter gear when planning a trip to the Mediterranean.
     
  49. MrSouthpaw

    MrSouthpaw Sr Member

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    The Mediterranean actually ups Indy's odds for survival. The Mediterranean climate is generally warm and even in the winter is warm enough that it rains instead of snowing. The Mediterranean sea around Greece is about 60-75 Fahrenheit depending on time of year. Not really all that cold. Indy was getting warmer the closer he got to Greece.

    And just for perspective people have been recorded as surviving being adrift for periods of time that far exceed 20 hours. Days, weeks, even over a year in some rare cases.
     
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  50. Bones_68

    Bones_68 Sr Member

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    Right, it's easy enough to forgive some faulty movie logic if you're caught up in the story. The only thing I remember being bothered by in 1981 was the light-activated spear trap in the opening sequence, like the one that gets Satipo. For some reason I got hung up on the mechanics of how that would work. But I also loved it so much that I didn't really care.
     
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