Independence Day - ID4 Alien Attacker 12ft Flying Spacecraft!

[Prop-Builder]

Starting with the Lindberg Captured Alien Attacker Model, I will progress up to a 12 foot flying RC model of the Alien Attacker as seen in the Independence Day movie (Or ID4). I will need to go through various scales to fine-tune the aerodynamics of this model and have at least 4 scales in mind.

I will use foam castings of the following scales and turn them into lightweight flying models using ducted fans inside the fuselage. I would have prefered of course to go the anti-gravity route, but unfortunately, the technology isn't available yet, so I'm having to go with traditional propulsion methods for my model. I did think about making a very thinned skin lightweight model and filling it with a gas such as Helium, then using some kind of small rocket motor hidden inside to propel it, but I don't really think this will work thinking about it.

The scales I intend to use are 9" wingspan, 2ft wingspan, 4ft wingspan then 12ft wingspan. I may do an 8 footer, but not sure at this time.

I intend to place cameras & tracking equipment into the model along with the RC gear. I would like to get some really nice high altitude shots to post here. The final large scale model would also feature opening hatch, lighting, closing 'power windows' and a magnetic display stand, so it levitates when it's not in use.

Here's a pic of the Lindberg model to start me off. I will make a quick foam casting from this just to see if the shape will allow it to glide. I can see this may be a pain to do at first adjusting the nose weight and various details. I have a 2ft Attacker also that I could just mold and make a foam copy from when I'm ready. For now I'll see how I get on with this little baby! :lol

 

[SVTStingRay]

Re: Independence Day - ID4 Alien Attacker 12ft Flying Spacecraft - Real Deal!

im getting area 51 on the fone stat!

im amazed about how much that movie still holds up. great project.

 

[NAZGÛL]

Re: Independence Day - ID4 Alien Attacker 12ft Flying Spacecraft - Real Deal!

Interesting! This will be a build Ill follow!

I suddenly got an urge to rewatch that movie...

 

[Prop-Builder]

Re: Independence Day - ID4 Alien Attacker 12ft Flying Spacecraft - Real Deal!

If anyone can think of a better way to get this model to fly other than ducted electric fans inside a foam structure (with resin skin), then please feel free to post!

I have another thread discussing ion propelled craft (or Ionocraft). This is an interesting concept, but the propulsion force is not powerful enough to even lift its own power supply, so I can't use anything like that for this project which is a shame. Please see the 'Ion Propelled Model UFO - Ionocraft' thread in the General Modeling section for this.

2ft Attacker Studio Model:

 

[SVTStingRay]

Re: Independence Day - ID4 Alien Attacker 12ft Flying Spacecraft - Real Deal!

id be surprised, does the attacker have enough lift in its shape? it sure doesnt look like it does.

 

[ralphee]

Re: Independence Day - ID4 Alien Attacker 12ft Flying Spacecraft - Real Deal!

Itll fly, itll need a huge amount of tweaking, but, if they can get the Falcon to fly, this will work, check out RC Groups for some tips maybe, im thinking a pusher would give the best propulsion!

lee

 

[Prop-Builder]

Re: Independence Day - ID4 Alien Attacker 12ft Flying Spacecraft - Real Deal!

Itll fly, itll need a huge amount of tweaking, but, if they can get the Falcon to fly, this will work, check out RC Groups for some tips maybe, im thinking a pusher would give the best propulsion!

lee

Thanks for your replies! Do you have any info on the flying Falcon you mentioned? Also, what do you mean by 'pusher?' If you think this would give the craft the best propulsion, I'm interested! :cool

Once I start approaching the 12ft model, I'll have to look into flying regulations more. I'm in the UK, so any info on this would be very helpful. I'd like to get the craft to go as high as possible, hence the tracking and camera equipment. It'd be so neat to get shots of the earth from very high altitudes. If it flies well enough, I'll then have fun finding out just how high it'll operate. There will be a point where the air will be just too thin for the wing to 'bite' into and mantain lift.

This model from the side does look much like the wing of an aircraft in its shape, but the canopy area at the front may cause problems regarding stream-lining. Maybe it would cause a rough ride?

 

[MooCriket]

Re: Independence Day - ID4 Alien Attacker 12ft Flying Spacecraft - Real Deal!

Can't wait to see what you pull off:thumbsup

 

[NAZGÛL]

Re: Independence Day - ID4 Alien Attacker 12ft Flying Spacecraft - Real Deal!

Itll fly, itll need a huge amount of tweaking, but, if they can get the Falcon to fly, this will work, check out RC Groups for some tips maybe, im thinking a pusher would give the best propulsion!
lee

I cant for my life understand how they manage to do that!!! :eek Amazing.

 

[Nwerke]

Re: Independence Day - ID4 Alien Attacker 12ft Flying Spacecraft - Real Deal!

Also, what do you mean by 'pusher?' If you think this would give the craft the best propulsion, I'm interested! :cool

Pusher propeller. A glow motor on the back with a prop will be less tricky and provide more thrust than a DF.

Once I start approaching the 12ft model, I'll have to look into flying regulations more. I'm in the UK, so any info on this would be very helpful. I'd like to get the craft to go as high as possible, hence the tracking and camera equipment. It'd be so neat to get shots of the earth from very high altitudes. If it flies well enough, I'll then have fun finding out just how high it'll operate. There will be a point where the air will be just too thin for the wing to 'bite' into and mantain lift.

:confused I just know I'll get flak for bursting your bubble, but I guess I get to be the party pooper again. You're talking serious aerospace drone territory here. What's your budget? A few million should be enough.

Let's look at what's realistically feasible for a hobbyist. Firstly, the UK has tight rules regarding size and weight of RC models. I won't post them here because they're lengthy. Go look up the main UK RC model authority's site and download them. 12 feet, using this shape, puts your model into the 'damn big' category where, IIRC, you need to be able to demonstrate considerable experience and knowhow. There are also frequency rules for your radio gear, and altitude restrictions, and you name it.

Secondly, your technical abilities. How's your aerodynamics knowhow? When you talk about ducted fans at first I thought you were talking about lift fans. With enough lift fans and the right weight you might actually get the thing off the ground for a brief hover (the usual endurance for RC power models is in the five to ten minutes range IIRC - I've only flown RC gliders and control-line power, so somebody correct me if I'm wrong).

But it's clear you do want the thing to fly as a real aircraft does, using forwards thrust and aerodynamic lift. Whole different kettle of fish.

This model from the side does look much like the wing of an aircraft in its shape, but the canopy area at the front may cause problems regarding stream-lining. Maybe it would cause a rough ride?

Never mind that, that's not your issue. Your issue is that the thing has no inherent stability AT ALL. It's a fake, sci-fi design not a real plane and it lacks many features a real plane needs. That's not insurmountable - there are flying R2-D2 and lawnmower models. It's a question of how much you are willing to compromise. Things like these, and the flying Millennium Falcon models use tricks like clear plastic fins and control surfaces and the last project I followed was still only marginally controllable.

So, if you're prepared to change the shape of the hull a bit to make it more of a lifting surface, and to add the equivalent of a tail fin and elevators and ailerons, and mount a pusher propeller on the back, and can work out the appropriate centre of gravity and centre of pressure to make the thing balanced and stable, then you have a chance of making it all work. But you're NOT going to get it to the edge of space...

I'm not trying to put you off here, definitely you have the right idea with the series of larger models. I'd advise ditching the tiny one - smaller models are simply less flyable than bigger ones. If it is true for planes it'll be truer for this! Start out with the two-foot version for your glider. You'll gain a lot of information from that. What foam do you plan to mould in? If urethane, you will want it to be very very low-density to keep the weight down. It will be tricky to adjust the centre of gravity.

Cheers,
Martyn

 

[Robbie TPC]

Re: Independence Day - ID4 Alien Attacker 12ft Flying Spacecraft - Real Deal!

Oh man what a awesome project :thumbsup

I think I got some pics of the attackers, but I need to find and scan them first.

 

[Prop-Builder]

Re: Independence Day - ID4 Alien Attacker 12ft Flying Spacecraft - Real Deal!

Oh man what a awesome project :thumbsup

I think I got some pics of the attackers, but I need to find and scan them first.

Thanks for the pic. I'll look forward to seeing more!

Also a big thank you for your lengthy reply Martyn. Ton's of info there!

Where do I start? Ok... I have had this project in my head for almost 10 years now. After ditching my dream of getting this thing to fly with some new exotic propulsion system (scientists are taking to long to invent something new), I am now going with the traditional forwards thrust and aerodynamic lift method. I can always adapt it later if science ever announces something special within my life-time! :love

My budget really depends on what I will get out of this. If it was ever capable of spaceflight, then I would put a lot into it. Otherwise, I'm still prepared to dig into my pockets deep enough to get it to fly within the atmosphere. I didn't expect an aircraft using traditional forwards thrust and aerodynamic lift to make it into orbit, I'd be happy with a few miles altitude which would still look good on camera!

Seriously though, I know it will be problematic and expensive, but I'm willing to give it a shot anyway. I'm no aviation or aerodynamics expert, but I have made and flown a few model planes in the past. I will use this as a learning experiance and start from the small models and just work my way up.

I believe the foam I'll be using is Urethane expanding foam. I will need to cut much of it away from the interior of the model anyway to allow for fitting of the engines, batteries and radio gear. I don't know what the surface would be like using the foam. It may have a skin that will take up the details of the ship, but if not, I thought about using a resin to laminate a very thin skin first, then backing that up with foam throughout the craft. This might make the surface more paintable.

If I'm unable to get the power I need from ducted electric fans (and I would prefer the engines inside the ship out of sight), I wondered if jet engines would work better? The snag with them is they're noisy, which would kinda spoil the 'Alien' effect and experience of flying the model at low altitudes where it'll be heard easily. Can these engines be silenced at all? :confused

I know it will require a way of controling the model in flight, but isn't there an alternative way of doing it other than tail fins, elevators and ailerons? Like maybe micro-thrusters to change directions, or better still, the above elevators and ailerons as mentioned but built into the ships existing surface details that can operate as normal and won't look to obvious.

The engine veins at the rear of the craft will hopefully make a good exhaust by cutting slots into them. This will hardly be noticable, but the front end will be more tricky. I will keep the pusher engine in mind, but I'd like to try the ducted jet route first so it's more concealed. Even though it's a 'fake' sci-fi design, I still love it and intend to keep it as accurate to the original as possible. If I have no choice, and have to make changes to get it off the ground, then I will. But I'll see how I get on with it.

I did wonder if the 9" Lindberg model would be of any use for testing the aerodynamics. :confused Guess I should put that aside then and move onto the 2 footer version. For the 12 foot model (and possibly the 8 footer), I would like to include a detailed cabin interior with lighting. I'd like the instrument panel to light up and have a camera fitted inside the cabin (as well as outside) so you would get a sense of being inside looking out through the windshield. I would make Youtube videos of this! :cool

 

[Robbie TPC]

Re: Independence Day - ID4 Alien Attacker 12ft Flying Spacecraft - Real Deal!

I found the pics, I’ll scan them tomorrow.
Why don’t you make the 4 foot model ? that’s the studio scale they used in the movie.

 

[Robbie TPC]

Re: Independence Day - ID4 Alien Attacker 12ft Flying Spacecraft - Real Deal!

Good luck :thumbsup

 

[Nwerke]

Re: Independence Day - ID4 Alien Attacker 12ft Flying Spacecraft - Real Deal!

It's all sounding very advacnded, hehe. ;p I'm sorry - you probably don't deserve that, but I couldn't resist it.

Um, electric ducted-fan - I don't think there ARE EDFs at the kind of power range you'll need for a heavy, 12-foot, aerodynamically non-optimal model. You're looking at the bigger glow or spark DF units for that.

I assume you'll want to use the cockpit windows as your intakes? If you have a detailed cockpit you run the risk of disrupting the airflow through the DF unit. You really want a DF to breathe very easily because their power is more marginal than a prop unit, as I understand it. A jet or two would definitely offer a lot more power, to my mind a bigger problem than noise is they're expensive! (Your model won't be silent even if you make it fly with EDF.) I'm not aware of any silencing method for model jets, but check the RCGroups site, you might find something.

And a few MILES altitude? I need to clarify my earlier comment: you won't legally be able to fly at that altitude, and if you want to do it illegally, you'll need specialist radio gear. Commercial RC gear doesn't have anything LIKE that range - models are flown strictly within sight (and even then, they often get lost or are crashed when the pilot loses his sense of what the model is doing. This still applies to models bigger than what you're planning - I've seen it happen a few times - believe me, a few hundred feet will make it difficult to make out exactly what the model is doing).

Expanding PU foam - thinking about this, it's probably more work than you really need. Do you want all your models to be studio-accurate, or are the smaller one/s just for test purposes? If so, I'd recommend getting hold of some sheets of Depron foam (closed-cell polystyrene) for the 2-footer at least. It's much lighter than PU foam and is used by aeromodellers all the time for foamies. (Check out the RCGroups foamies section, you'll get tons of good advice there.) With this stuff you can build up an approximate copy of the shape and test the aerodynamics.

You'll get better results as this will be light, easier to balance and hollow from the outset - the reason I say PU is more work is that not only do you have to make a mould and get a good casting but you'll have to open up your casting, hollow it out from the inside, then balance it. You'll have variations in the density and the hollowing-out and it will be really hard to balance. Also it is more brittle than Depron and really a lot heavier. Weight is always your enemy, ESPECIALLY with something that's as far from a conventional aircraft design as this is.

Thrusters for control - this would require a permanently active computerised artificial stability system like a modern fighter, and again, you're getting into high-end aerospace industry level stuff. (I assume you DON'T have millions to spend, but if you are Bruce Wayne, please let us all know as we all have some projects we'd like to pitch to you!)

The thing is, the design has no natural stability. It just will not be a matter of putting an engine on it and expecting it to move through the air in a straight path. The thing has to naturally WANT to do that, rather than flop to the ground like a paper plate. The shape you're starting with will try to flop around like that, so you have to find ways to give it stability in the yaw, roll and pitch axes. I think you'll probably find it is vital to give it a complete tail in clear plastic.

The slots at the rear probably could be adapted into your exhausts. When you look at this sort of thing, there's quite a bit of mathematics involved regarding drag losses, intake areas, exhaust areas, fan area, engine power, RPM, etc. Again, have a look at the RCGroups EDF and DF forums and you'll see how much discussion revolves around those issues. Also you'll notice that many models of real-life aeroplanes are significantly "adjusted" to work with model engines. The intakes and exhausts for DF models often have to be enlarged vs the real scale sizes, just so that the propulsion mathematics work out enough for the model to fly.

For your bigger models I think epoxy resin and light glass cloth would be the best way to go for construction. Your casting results are going to be a lot more controllable that way but you can still lay it up in a mould and include the surface detail.

This was a Patrick Tatopolous design, wasn't it? I love that guy's work too.

 

[Robbie TPC]

Re: Independence Day - ID4 Alien Attacker 12ft Flying Spacecraft - Real Deal!

This was a Patrick Tatopolous design, wasn't it? I love that guy's work too.

Your right, Tatopoulos was the production designer.

I’m not a rc pilot but I think a 12 foot model with this shape will never fly, a jet engine is very expensive and also very dangerous if you don’t know what your dealing with.
I would go for a smaller 2 or 4 footer model with two electric impeller engine’s.

 

[Nwerke]

Re: Independence Day - ID4 Alien Attacker 12ft Flying Spacecraft - Real Deal!

I would go for a smaller 2 or 4 footer model with two electric impeller engine’s.

Agree 100%.

 

[Prop-Builder]

Re: Independence Day - ID4 Alien Attacker 12ft Flying Spacecraft - Real Deal!

Maybe I should just fly it within sight then on private land. One of the reasons for the cameras in the cockpit is so I can see where it's going and what it's doing. If it was to take a nose dive towards the ground, I should be able to spot this on camera?

I'm aware jets are expensive and a pain to start, so I'll try alternative engines first. With all this aerodynamics talk, I'm starting to think anti-gravity propulsion would be easier after all! :lol

 

[Eclipse]

Re: Independence Day - ID4 Alien Attacker 12ft Flying Spacecraft - Real Deal!

Man best of luck to you on this one. The idea is amazing and I always loved that ship. Best of luck, I can't wait to see how it shapes up!

 

[Nwerke]

Re: Independence Day - ID4 Alien Attacker 12ft Flying Spacecraft - Real Deal!

Maybe I should just fly it within sight then on private land. One of the reasons for the cameras in the cockpit is so I can see where it's going and what it's doing. If it was to take a nose dive towards the ground, I should be able to spot this on camera?

I'm aware jets are expensive and a pain to start, so I'll try alternative engines first. With all this aerodynamics talk, I'm starting to think anti-gravity propulsion would be easier after all! :lol

If it existed, it'd be the way to go! :lol

You could also try model rocket engines, with parachute recovery. You'd need a fake tail, but you'd get serious altitude and model rockets can loft cameras.