I just gotta ask.

micdavis

Master Member
Can't hold my tongue anymore.

How is this NOT recasting?

http://www.therpf.com/showthread.php?t=56537&page=12

At one time these trinkets were given away like candy by a member that is now banned. I've got a few of them lying around myself.

Unless Rich is making them from a mold he received from Greg Jein or has his permission to recast them, this is recasting, is it not?

An explanation of the source of these parts would be greatly appreciated.
 
What about this offering:

http://www.therpf.com/showthread.php?t=54337&highlight=endorifle

These aren't scratch-built replicas or found items, like Rich's legendary C&S blaster (which is both), so I'm curious to know how the mods view this matter - I'd hate to be labeled a rights violator for patronizing these kind of recasting projects...

If the original prop maker gave his blessing for either projects, I would personally have no qualms with "permission-given recasts."
 
I am kind of confused on the source for this overthruster myself. Or if Rich got Greg Jein's blessing or not. I guess since he is from Hollywood it is okay, right?

Andy
 
You should ask Rich directly and let him chime in if he thinks this is out of bounds. Some guys sell rights or give permission to other guys all the time. If you haven't already spoken to Rich about it, don't jump to conclusions.

Dave
 
You should ask Rich directly and let him chime in if he thinks this is out of bounds. Some guys sell rights or give permission to other guys all the time. If you haven't already spoken to Rich about it, don't jump to conclusions.

Dave

I don't think anyone is jumping to conclusions? micdavis just asked a question, I hope that Rich will chime in and set the record straight! :thumbsup
 
Regarding pulls from original items:

While I respect this thread's author, I'm not so sure it's a good idea when you start asking propmakers for their 'papers' on a prop forum. It starts a bad ball-o-rollin' as evident by others who are now drawing attention to misc. threads.

Had they taken serious issue in the first place they would've started their own threads, right?

Speaking as a propmaker, I certainly don't condone recasting, but there are always shades of gray on screen used items. This entire forum is framed by a fragile 'prop constitution' of playground logic. Buyers and sellers alike arbitraily make amendments to suit ones needs.

I've purchased numerous screen used pieces where the prop maker has said, "Do what you want with it, but you didn't get it from me!" I'd hardly disclose the source if called upon to do so.

Unless someone has complained, it comes from a scratch build or infringes on a licensed item, what's the problem?

I'll digress since this threads author may know something I don't. Again, I'm simply addressing the root issue as mentioned up top.

"Pulls from original items."
 
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I'm man enough to accept the word of a prominent and trustworthy member if he says he got permission from the original prop maker or replicator (unless he's deceased, in which case it's open season, as Rich can attest... ). In other words, I don't need to see a scan of the permission letter - if the recasting is not done with permission, then the member better watch his Karma balance... I'd just hate to later find out that I contributed to the violation of another member or prop maker's rights.

And to clarify, when I say "rights," I refer to personal rights, not those of the studios, licensors, or licensees. However, I also recall reading here that once a licensee does have the rights replicate a particular prop, the forum takes a "hands off" approach to that prop, especially if the licensee is an RPF affiliate as MR, Qmx and Sideshow are/were. Yet the Endorifle is being offered in plain sight (Sideshow is the licensee), as are replicas of Mal's gun from Firefly, which Qmx owns the rights to. I believe this "code of honor" applied whether or not the licensee retired or sold out of the prop - again, with the exception of the licensee going out of business (Icons) or losing the license (MR/Star Wars). Is this still the conventional wisdom?

I'm new here, so forgive me if I'm retreading old ground - I'm just genuinely curious and want to know the right thing to do, because I've been joining many interest lists lately and don't want to step on any toes...
 
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Yes, to Rylo you will listen.

He speaks with much wisdom.

His words are a light unto our resinous paths...


But seriously, Ry pretty much nailed it. :thumbsup
 
I will add, on the plain one I was given one by Greg himself and he did not say "Do not make any copies.." heck I do not know where he got his copy as I do not think he worked on BB.

And for the other I did say in my offer, I got this from someone who could not say under what rights and IF anyone has a problem with it I would stop offering it.

Reread my offer.

No one did and now I am filling those orders.

I can only say what we came up with back in the Golden days in Hollywood amoung many of us old propmakers.

We had a code of honor and I never knowing recast a fellow propmaker's models who was selling them to fans. Most of us could hardly make a living off the studios so selling our models helped between jobs.

A kind of honor amount thieves, it was OK to rip off studios (after all they make their millions off of us, and at that tiem Roddenberry supported us) but do not rip off a fellow propmaker selling his models to support himself, and YES I know some prop maker did make the studio props, but most of us had to sign a “no reproduction” contract so we were bared from selling the very props we just made…OK??

Hell we would get together and traded with each another, one no reproduction prop for another’s No repo prop. I did his and he did one of mine...
Also we always made small changes so we could spot a recreation/reproduction, so the recreations could not be sold as "off the set props." (Well we tried to stop that...)

Last if some on dropped production of a model (did his run...) it was OK to pick it up.. a year or two later.. and again most would ask first.
When I got took by being told the seller owned the "rights" (some 20 years ago) and when confronted by the rightful owners, I owned up, said I was sorry and paid again for the OK to go on, or as one wanted me to stop, I did. Mistakes happen...

Does that cover it??

Rich





 
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So recasting is okay as long as you don't know who made the original, or they can not say anything because of a studio contract?

Andy
 
That does seem to be correct.

A lot of classic props were made in shops and by a team, so no one propmaker clams ownership.

A lot were made by propmakers who never clamed they had done them.

Some had too many “owners” as a bunch clamed being the builder.

As most of us was fighting to stay alive and pay our bills as studio propmaking rarely was steady work, the main rule was not to take food from some ones mouth, not to step on some ones sales with his own work. (Recasting)

Even now a lot of people do not like nor want to make the same model over and over again, many only want to do one short run and get out with a few free copies.

So such a model soon becomes more or less public domain. (Again if you know the owner/builder it is best to ask for their OK.)

I normally work by these rules…

1) I get a model from a studio source. 95% of the time I then make MAJOR changes, like cutting it apart and adding working features and electronic sound and light effects. (the Overthruster is one..from a studio source, at lease one of the two is…)

2) Build a model with as much real found parts and then offer it.(The Blade Runner Blaster is such a model)

3) Make a deal with the model maker to reproduce it. (The Lawgiver I hope to do soon is one of these.)

4) Rarely: Reproduce a model after a search and posting for it’s “owner” to come forth. (the second Overthruster is one of these…)

5) Rarely: Recast a rip off model with the OK of the real owner who was ripped off. (I can not think of a model that falls under this…)

Our old rules was it was OK to rip off a million dollar studio, not a $10.00 dollar props maker. Most of the very few of us that was making props for fans did it for the following reasons:

Our love of the show/film and as we lucked out and found these props and keepsakes, were willing to share.

To stay alive until the next studio job.

To keep our hand in and refine our craft, if I had not been moonlighting by making props for fans I would not be free to take a real prop job.

And by working for fans who are a lot more fussy than the studios, (funny as we would make 3 to 5 times as much selling to a studio…) I for one would have never become the propmaker I am now. Studios can be very forgiving, and just shoot its good side and do not care about parting line, bubbles, and paint flaws.

All things consumers will yell about...

I kind of think this was one of Icon’s down fall, hiring real propmakers used to selling ratty props to the studio and NOT used to selling super clean props to collectors.

The studios send mixed messages as well, Paramount let things go for years, and Gene Roddenberry publicly said he supported fans making costumes, phasers, and writing fan fiction.

Seemly George Lukas also allow fans to do our thing, up until he restarted Star Wars…

For decades studios said we help keep the interest alive and were supporting the shows and films.

And I have done so for over the past 30 years, from 1977 the year Star Wars come out.

That is my understanding of things prop.

My 2 cents worth.

Rich
 
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"I kind of think this was one of Icon’s down fall, hiring real propmakers used to selling ratty props to the studio and NOT used to selling super clean props to collectors.

The studios send mixed messages as well, Paramount let things go for years, and Gene Roddenberry publicly said he supported fans making costumes, phasers, and writing fan fiction."

I dont know about 'ratty' but........Mismanagement defiantly. We had access to original props and it was always a fine line to recreate accurate 'wonkyness' or an idealized version. What would sell better? We didnt know as this was the first foray into mass marketed licenced replicas. I remember getting my ass handed to me by Latta one day for repairing a crack on the hip of a screen used Endo Skeleton. "Its not screen accurate anymore!" "Yea but it wont need crutches." was our response. At that time, nobody had BluRay screen grabs to pick out all the quirks and the decision was made to Idealize 'most' of the products. The other main downfall was not to hire out all of the production to cheap overseas labor mills. Almost everything was made in house by hand. The quality of the 'hands' diminished over time to cheaper and cheaper domestic labor.

Studios are a lot like Nike or Adidas turning a blind eye to cheap counterfeits in poor countries. The counterfeits keep the brand alive to people who would not be able to buy a genuine article. As long as the product is being sold off market and not in retail locations its quasi OK.

Recasting without permission is just bad juju. RAC seems to have the OK from whomever he got the BB Overthrusters from so I had no reservations about ordering one. Recasting is not bad....Recasting somebody elses work without permission, bad.
 
Recasting without permission is just bad juju. RAC seems to have the OK from whomever he got the BB Overthrusters from so I had no reservations about ordering one. Recasting is not bad....Recasting somebody elses work without permission, bad.

He didn't say that he got the OK he said :

"I was given one by Greg himself and he did not say "Do not make any copies.."
 
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That gray area keeps getting bigger and bigger doesn't it.

I still don't see how copying the Icons X-Wing base and Don Post stuff is okay and copying the MR AT-AT was considered bad. Both are companies out of the Star Wars business.

Sorry, I just think this is crossing the line. I highly doubt he has permission from Greg and has simply recast something from his collection. He doesn't own the original molds or masters, which in the past was benchmark for selling casts of originals. Anything else was a recast.

I've got a ton of stuff that nobody has said "don't copy it", but I would think it's wrong to do so.

You guys have got to stop moving the line in the sand. Makes ya'll look bad.

And that's all I have to say about that.
 
Well it has been about 20 some years ago and he was VERY familier with my fan sales so I would say giving me a copy was more or less implied I was OKed to make copies.

Rich
 
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