I have a new theory for transporters...

Inquisitor Peregrinus

Master Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
Mods, move this to off-topic if you deem it appropriate. As this pertains to an integral technology in Star Trek, I figured I'd post it here.

So, the science-minded folks who worked on TNG, DS9, Voyager, the various films through the '80s and '90s, wrote the TNG and DS9 Technical Manuals (and the unpublished one for Voyager) ran into all the problems of the stated process -- converting matter to entergy, transmitting that energy pattern over distance, and converting it back to matter in its original form. Everything from the energy required (roughly an atomic explosion for every single one of the trillions of subatomic bonds in your body and clothes) to good old quantum indeterminacy.

Sidebar: I've always hated the people who misunderstand what transporters were stated to be all the way back to TOS, and have decided the transporter scans the original, makes a copy at the destination, and then destroys the original. Nope. Pay attention tot he source material.

Anyway. I saw something in the Ask Science subreddit that caught my attention. Here's the link. The original post is a good question in its own right, but read through the whole comment thread. Some quantum physics background needs to get spelled out before an understandable answer can be given. Ultra-ultra-simplifying things... Many on here probably know a laymen's version of the Uncertainty Principle -- that you can't know both the position and direction of an atom. That's... not wrong, but also fails to convey what's actually going on. It's more that subatomic particles pop out of one place and in at another, without really traversing the intervening distance. The act of observing on our macro scale messes with the probability that those quanta will be where they might have been if we weren't. There's a lot more to it, hence my recommending folks visit that link.

I've known a lot of that to one degree or another for a few years. But the way things were phrased in some of the responses in that thread sparked a thought. If we're effecting subatomic positioning probabilities just through observation, might we be able to affect those probabilities more if we set out to do so deliberately? And, over a few centuries, might we be able to amplify both the effect and it's range to, say, suppress the probability of all the these associated quanta existing here and increase the probability of them existing there until some threshold is crossed and the macro object(s) do on a large scale what the quanta do on their usual scale -- tunnel from point A to point B without necessarily traversing the intervening distance? I'm not sure what equipment would be needed to do this, or how much energy it would take, but I'm willing to be it wouldn't rely on supernova-levels of energy at each end of the process to make it go...

Discuss.

--Jonah
 
Wow, that is positively a brain scrambler. I wish I was more informed about Quantum Mechanics...but I think I might almost have the gist of what you may be trying to explain. :confused (Yes, my eyes are glazing over too!! )

If 'intention' can be controlled to the point of being able to manipulate quanta, the big question is WHY observation (intention) affects it, isn't it? Isn't that the big question? If consciousness affects sub-atomic particles, you have to find out more about what exactly consciousness is. Gosh, I'm rambling. Sorry.

Interesting ideas though.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
If we're effecting subatomic positioning probabilities just through observation, might we be able to affect those probabilities more if we set out to do so deliberately? And, over a few centuries, might we be able to amplify both the effect and it's range to, say, suppress the probability of all the these associated quanta existing here and increase the probability of them existing there until some threshold is crossed and the macro object(s) do on a large scale what the quanta do on their usual scale -- tunnel from point A to point B without necessarily traversing the intervening distance? I'm not sure what equipment would be needed to do this, or how much energy it would take, but I'm willing to be it wouldn't rely on supernova-levels of energy at each end of the process to make it go...

Discuss.

--Jonah

That's like saying six sided dice don't have a 1/6 probability of landing on a specific number, you don't control probability.
 
You're talking about quantum mechanical superposition. But as stated being able to predict it doesn't mean controlling the outcome. Just like with Schrödinger's Cat, you might be able to predict if the cat is alive or dead, but you wouldn't be able to decide and "make it so" (pun intended).

Also when matter turns into energy it is essentially destroyed. So in a way you would be creating "clones".

It may not be boobs but you might like this anyway:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_superposition

Heisenberg !!!

You're ******** right
 
By the way, thinking about transporters and such made me come up with my own theory about time traveling.

If information is not lost it should be theoretically possible to rearrange everything around (!) a (time/space) traveller to an earlier position/point in space and time/ configuration, shouldn´t it? It would probably also mean that the stream of information would have to be guided so that the traveller finds back into his "own" information stream. But I guess the first step would be to "simulate" such a rearranging, i.e. create devices to simulate and watch those earlier states.
 
By the way, thinking about transporters and such made me come up with my own theory about time traveling.

If information is not lost it should be theoretically possible to rearrange everything around (!) a (time/space) traveller to an earlier position/point in space and time/ configuration, shouldn´t it? It would probably also mean that the stream of information would have to be guided so that the traveller finds back into his "own" information stream. But I guess the first step would be to "simulate" such a rearranging, i.e. create devices to simulate and watch those earlier states.

That's sort of the premise behind the time travel in this novel... If you've never run across it, maybe give it a read. :)

--Jonah
 
In order to see the quantum, first, one must be the quantum.

....and

I think - it's impossible to think outside of the constraints of physics, known and as yet unknown.

A couple of limbering up exercises I like to ponder before a good read.
 
By the way, thinking about transporters and such made me come up with my own theory about time traveling.

If information is not lost it should be theoretically possible to rearrange everything around (!) a (time/space) traveller to an earlier position/point in space and time/ configuration, shouldn´t it? It would probably also mean that the stream of information would have to be guided so that the traveller finds back into his "own" information stream. But I guess the first step would be to "simulate" such a rearranging, i.e. create devices to simulate and watch those earlier states.

Sounds like the Omega 13 in Galaxy Quest.... and as for travelling from point A to point B without traversing the space in between, isnt that just (yeah just....lol) folding space? Wormholes may end up as a better transporter idea to walk through a doorway to another location rather than beaming. Less to go wrong than having to rearrange trillions of atoms.... I'm sure bones would be happier with it.
 
What he's talking about sounds like it would essentially be trillions of subatomic wormholes under the theory that it may be easier to transfer smaller particles. Might even be true....in any case it certainly SOUNDS reasonable at first glance, which is more than enough to pass muster in a sci fi movie.

Also...
The destructive version mentioned up top is not so much a misunderstanding of Star Trek as it is an understanding of what RL scientists are up to: German scientists supposedly have managed to recreate the spin of particles a distance away using that technique, thus the assumption that when transporting finally happens it will be the destroy it in one place and recreate it elsewhere variety.

I like a combination of the two: use the destructive version to temporarily create the doorway on the other end needed to just open a single wormhole to step through.
 
The way i've heard it made somewhat plausible is that you're not transferring the actual person - you're, in essence, cloning them.

-Guy steps onto transporter pad
-Guy is scanned down the the atomic level
-Scan is sent to location B.
-Once scan is received at station B, guy is, for lack of a better word, be built based on the atomic scan.
-Once the build is complete and verified, the original is deleted.

It was said the computer power required was nearly there, but that to make it work 'transporter like', we'd need a method of transmitting the data about a billion times faster than we could back in 2010.
 
I wonder if memories and personality traits are actual recorded information in the brain, like data on a hard drive.
It would have to be in the destroyed original -> clone scenario, otherwise you'd end up with an empty shell on the other end.

I don't know anything about quantum mechanics, this is just the thought I had when I read this thread.
 
maybe transporter is just as likely to happen as a starship captain kissing females of every species he encounters.......... :p :D
 
Yeah, until I'm certain that the transporter isn't making an identical copy of me, and deleting the original, I'm staying off the transporter pad.

I'd like to see them bring up that idea in a movie/show. I wonder if you could serve in Starfleet if you refused to transport...
 
The biggest problem with transporters is the fact you don't have to have a pad at both the sending and receiving points. I could see how you could temporarily force matter into an energy state and then it automatically reverts back to matter at the beam down point. But how do you beam someone up without a pad?
 
It's more like... *thinks how best to put it* You can do "site to site" transporting directly, but since the machinery has a discrete location, they decided it makes sense to have a "departure station" in close proximity. Most efficient approach is pretty much to stick the beaming platform right on top of the imaging sensors. You can control the environment and variables better. It also helps the targeting scanners not have to deal with other clutter they'd have to filter out. With ships, also, the armory and field equipment is usually stored right nearby, so it's all considered a sort of disembarkation point. We see on Earth -- Prime and nuTrek, both -- transporter booths, which serve the same isolation function, but the actual transporting machinery is in an orbiting satellite network, so that's a good example of how you don't need to be standing on the actual mechanism. Maybe if the technology stays around in the Trek universe for another century or millennium, it'll get refined to the point that they don't bother with pads any more at all, and people will have personal transporters carried on their persons. Already in TNG, they were more comfortable with site-to-site transporting and other previously "too risky" techniques (touch-and-go downwarping, beaming at warp, beaming through shields, etc.) than in TOS. It's technology in evolution.

--Jonah
 
Back
Top