I guess James Cameron is a genius

[Colin Droidmilk]

Serves me right for not being a video game aficionado, but I'm not entirely sure what is meant by "video game camera motion." I can tell you that owing to the general complexity of Cameron's images he keeps his camera movement to a well motivated minimum. Oh, there are as few dynamic moves to be sure, but in general Cameron allows his camera to linger over the world he's created rather than punch hyper-kinetic holes in it.

As for the comparison to Gollum, there is none. The N'avi represent the best example of CG character animation to date. Gollum is primitive by comparison.

As for the dialogue being as "good" as Aliens, I'd say that's a reasonable comparison. Suffice it to say neither film will distinguish itself in the annals of great cinematic wordplay, but that's as it should be. Whatever Avatar is about, it ain't about the dialogue -- any more than 2001 was.

Well I gave good examples of what I mean by vidgame motion. Jackson's over-fast POV landscape shots over Isengard, all characters on the backs of any creature, from LotR to SW, troll fight in Moria etc. etc.

Those clips I saw all looked too much like that to my taste, but you saw the whole film and you say it's not so bad as that. Ok, as I say, if you're right, I might go. But how do I know your sensibilities are the same as mine? The fact that you go for the Na'avi over Gollum to the extent that you do indicates that they're quite different.

The dialogue. I know not to expect Ingmar Bergman, right? But I don't expect ten levels below the grunt movie, 'Aliens'. That's what I'm getting from scene after scene after scene. I've watched the 'you're not in Kansas' scene, I've watched the whole section where the guy is shown his avatar, where Weaver puts him in etc. hated every single word of it.

Anyway, as I said, I might go. To see those helicopter thingies in 3D and have a look at that big tree.

 

[Colin Droidmilk]

Don't go see it, you won't like it because it's the worst film ever. You win.

Sarcasm, nice.

Why so upset? Is it so painful that I, a mere speck surrounded by millions of Avatar fans, saw some clips and decided against seeing the ruddy thing? Seems the hive-mind feels threatened till all naysayers are absorbed...

 

[CTF]

troll fight in Moria

Now, it's been some time since I've seen Fellowship, but that is shot handheld, right?

 

[Colin Droidmilk]

Well, I guess there's a lot of different shot types in that, incl. possible switches to cg environments for the swooping shots on the troll, I don't know. But I cited that really for the figure animation of the troll and the hobbit on its back - the kind of weightlessness and over-fast movement, akin to video game graphics, that even Dennis Muren admits is still a problem with cgi. In my view it's a problem that arose only sometime in the late '90s after the second Jurassic movie, actually in the SW special edition with that cartoony jawa falling off the creature, and the cartoony robots in the same scene.

 

[Pauleysolo]

Very well written! :thumbsup

Cameron has played a very subtle game with Avatar. He seems to have grabbed upon a bunch of demographics and given them each something to chew on.

For guys, there is the cool hardware, badass guys, marines and plenty of stuff go boom.

But Avatar is also a chick flick with a strong heroine and a romantic hero who understands her and lots of that touchy feely emotions women can't get enough of.

It's got the big cool universe roleplayers digg.

A lot of it is lifted from Jurassic Park and Walking with dinosaurs.

The Na'vi are plain furry fodder. Cameron makes Xenophilia almost respectable.

AMP suits, guns, starships, and those supercool holographic screens are just plain techie geek fodder.

Add 3D and a smart use of the technology (Cameron doesn't fall into the trap of tossing pingpong balls at you all the time)

And then there is the actual Avatar idea, the mother of all transformation fantasies, you not only get to be a better, cooler person, you are in touch with the whole planet and have a neural connection when making whoopie ... (Yes, there is an Eywa, Virginia)

The whole new age in touch with nature and plain living

Avatar throws so many leads about it has something to appeal to a very broad segment of the population.

Cameron just manipulates us with a very efficient little movie that manages to push enough buttons to rake in 2 billon $ and it suckered me to go watch it twice because he got to some of my emotional buttons, even though my rational mind says that it's not a great movie.

BTW, I apologize if people feel offended that I knock on George Lucas. I love Star Wars, I hear the music and I'm instantly a kid again. I can forgive Lucas a lot, I even try to stand in his shoes whenever I see Jar Jar Binks and convince myself Lucas honestly believes he is hilarious, but I also believe that whatever talent Lucas had as a filmmaker and director has evaporated somewhere at the tail end of the 80's. Lucas was lucky to work with fantastic people like Kurtz, Kirshner, editors and all those talented people who helped bring Lucas' inspired but a bit muddled ideas into focus and made some of my all-time favourite movies. Lucas was a powerful creative force, but until he makes another good movie, he's out of the loop for me.

 

[barbatus]

I am AMAZED at the people who refuse to see the film for themselves but still feel compelled to keep posting their hollow opinions in EVERY Avatar-related thread... :rolleyes

I'm also fascinated by the concept of spending an awful lot of time to bash a movie you haven't seen and don't even consider watching anyway. It will remain a mystery to me what joy people find in this. But wait, it gets better: It seems like some people who already know that they'll hate a movie will still watch it simply to justify their whining :rolleyes Don't get me wrong, from time to time I too borrow a movie I know I won't like from a friend, just out of curiosity, but I don't feel the need to act surprised and disgusted that I disliked the flick after watching it.

I get it, it's cool not to like Avatar.

Since I don't care about others telling me what I should or shouldn't like anyway, I have no problem being "uncool" :cool Still funny how some keep telling me that I only like Avatar for its effects and 3D and that I can't possibly like its story and characters...

 

[Solo4114]

Since I don't care about others telling me what I should or shouldn't like anyway, I have no problem being "uncool" :cool Still funny how some keep telling me that I only like Avatar for its effects and 3D and that I can't possibly like its story and characters...

You know, you should really not care about what others tell you you should or shouldn't like. All the cool kids aren't caring about that these days.


:angel

 

[nickytea]

It's funny how quickly discussion of this movie becomes polarized. Like many things, I suppose.

You do realize that loving and hating something are not the only options?

I thought Avatar was fun but thematically inconsequential. The first act had a lot of dramatic promise. The scene where he runs for the first time was fantastic. I didn't feel like the rest of the picture lived up to that potential. The lead character's development was almost completely divorced from the thrust of the story. His choices as a character had only a secondary effect on the actions of the plot.

The last act especially lacked unity. It played with big, evocative images, only to gloss over them. I'm not even talking about the battle sequences. I'm thinking about the giant navi cradling the frail human body of her love interest. That's a powerful idea, and the biggest transitionary development of his character (the full switch to alien body) is made out of necessity rather than as a defining action of his choice. Big idea, glossed over.

In fact, I felt like the actual link between Jake and his alien body was completely ignored. To me, that's rife with potential for a thematic statment. You've got a lead who uses an alien body, and an antagonist who uses a machine body. Both existing through artifice, this is a GREAT opportunity for juxtaposition. SAY SOMETHING ABOUT IT. That's a really interesting idea, just begging for a thematic statement to be made.

And guess what? You wouldn't have had to sacrifice the eye popping action, or the "green" message everyone likes to talk about. Just a slight shift in priority could have made the narrative a lot more well rounded.

Still, fun movie.

 

[Too Much Garlic]

Maybe it'll be in a special edition! :lol

 

[Solo4114]

Damn, Nicky. You sound almost as picky as I am about this stuff.

Seriously, though, I agree that you do not have to sacrifice whiz-bang awesome action sequences for the sake of a good story. People seem to think that the two are mutually exclusive and that one is, apparently, confined to Shakespeare alone (IE: "Jeez, man, I didn't go to it to see Shakespeare...").

By the way, the Agincourt sequence in Henry V friggin' ROCKED!!!

 

[Rotwang]

Even though it's the length of an Ice Age, Avatar skips along, highlighting the odd details, but has to rush to get the whole story told.

Some scenes are not even in the film, like how Jake gets to control the big flying schmurtz, that's a classic character development point simply skipped for the sake of getting the movie going.

A story like that might be better done as a miniseries.

 

[terryr]

And don't forget The Dragon Riders of Pern by Anne McCaffrey. They pick you, you don't pick them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragonriders_of_Pern

But then mighty Lucas had some inspiration;

Samurai 1, 2, + 3. A farm boy is trained by a monk to be a great swordsman. In the 3rd film he fights his greatest battle but doesn't hate the guy.
The Hidden Castle. A princess flees from the emperors men. With her are 2 bumbling servants. Eventually she falls for her bad boy protector.
Dune. A teenager on a desert planet fights the Emperor, who kills his family. He escapes into the desert and is trained to fight. He has special powers. Eventually we find his sister does too. His friend is a spice smuggler, and his teacher is killed in a raid.
The Emperors evil right hand man is part machine and has a royal title. We find out he is the ancestor of the hero.
Good thing there was no internet in 1977.

 

[Colin Droidmilk]

I'm also fascinated by the concept of spending an awful lot of time to bash a movie you haven't seen and don't even consider watching anyway. It will remain a mystery to me what joy people find in this.

Well, I'd've kept it to the one post but for the repeated and outraged challenges to my attitude. This touchiness I find fascinating. And I enjoy taking up the gauntlet when it comes to defending my position. It's good brain exercise. So, since these guys have been piling in on me here, the tragic upshot is that poor little Avatar, or rather the extensive clips I saw, necessarily get more bashing, lol.

Another thing I find fascinating is, despite the conciliatory tone I adopted for a stretch of this thread in the interests of conviviality, people still want to stick pins in. Go ahead, but don't moan if I then respond with more avatar putdowns.

 

[niennumb1]

 

[Rotwang]

Well, I'd've kept it to the one post but for the repeated and outraged challenges to my attitude. This touchiness I find fascinating. And I enjoy taking up the gauntlet when it comes to defending my position. It's good brain exercise. So, since these guys have been piling in on me here, the tragic upshot is that poor little Avatar, or rather the extensive clips I saw, necessarily get more bashing, lol.

Another thing I find fascinating is, despite the conciliatory tone I adopted for a stretch of this thread in the interests of conviviality, people still want to stick pins in. Go ahead, but don't moan if I then respond with more avatar putdowns.

I've seen the exact same discussions about other subjects. Once something drifts away from a person's "zone of comfort" it can become the subject of dislike. The more people seem to like it, the more dislike. It's often a polar thing. "I love Star Trek, but Star Wars is stupid/Star Wars rules, and Star Trek sucks."

It's even more infuriating to see the object of dislike being popular and making money and in your face coverage by the media which irks even more because you can't figure out why this stupid worthless thing is so popular, but so obviously undeserving.

Harry Potter, Twilight, Microsoft, Avatar, Apple ... take your pick

 

[Carson Dyle]

And in regards to it making so much money, well, they say there's an idiot born every minute...

True enough. By the same token, in the case of Avatar, it wouldn’t be the first time the overwhelming majority of critics, fans, and audiences knew something a few disgruntled fanboys didn’t.

For the record I have nothing but respect for those who didn't dig Avatar, especially when they articulate their criticisms logically, intelligently, and dispassionately. My issue is with the condescending insinuation that those of us who were blown away by the film represent some sort of lowest common denominator with regard to our taste and intellect.

Well I gave good examples of what I mean by vidgame motion. Jackson's over-fast POV landscape shots over Isengard...

Gotcha. In my day we called it “unmotivated camera movement.”

It bugged me in LOTR as well because in many instances I couldn’t tell who’s POV those jarringly sweeping moves were intended to convey. More often than not they took me out of the picture. With Avatar that’s not an issue.

The dialogue. I know not to expect Ingmar Bergman, right? But I don't expect ten levels below the grunt movie, 'Aliens'.

The dialogue in Avatar is on a par with Aliens; no better, no worse. James Cameron has never been a brilliant wordsmith, but judging his films solely on that basis seems a bit narrow-minded to my way of thinking (not that you’ve done so).

I mean, if I were to have pre-judged Star Wars based strictly on the merit of lines like “Stay on target, stay on target,” or “She’ll die before she tells you anything!,” or “Boy, it’s lucky you had these compartments!” I’d never had made it into the theater.

I didn't feel like the rest of the picture lived up to that potential. The lead character's development was almost completely divorced from the thrust of the story. His choices as a character had only a secondary effect on the actions of the plot.

I don’t know what to say except we must have seen different films. If I had the time and inclination I could go through Avatar beat by beat to illustrate how the hero’s actions drive the plot and shape the destiny of each and every character in the film.

Maybe the cinema where you saw the picture skipped a reel?

Some scenes are not even in the film, like how Jake gets to control the big flying schmurtz, that's a classic character development point simply skipped for the sake of getting the movie going.

Oh c’mon, that’s just good editing. We’ve seen the hero tame one beast, why must we sit through the taming of a second, somewhat larger beast? Far better to withhold the reveal of Sully’s conquest until he makes his big entrance before the N’avi, thus enabling us to experience the moment in a more dramatic context.

 

[nickytea]

I don’t know what to say except we must have seen different films. If I had the time and inclination I could go through Avatar beat by beat to illustrate how the hero’s actions drive the plot and shape the destiny of each and every character in the film.

Maybe the cinema where you saw the picture skipped a reel?

Admittedly, I need to sit down with the movie and solidify my reasoning. This was my gut reaction after my first viewing. While it may not sound it, I actually enjoyed quite a bit of the movie.

Had a fun time with it, but walking away from it I couldn't help feeling the third act was structurally unsound, and some of the dramatic beats felt missed or underplayed. That being said, maybe I read too much into the first act, and focused disproportionately on aspects that were never meant to be major players. Certainly possible.

Even though we may disagree on this movie (You and I generally agree on movies, I've noticed.) I completely agree with you on people's reaction to it. It's been very disappointing.

 

[Jamanticus]

Nope. I said to the poster 'if you're right, I'm tempted' - and I should have added, if I shared the sensibilities of the poster(His idea of videogame crud might be different from mine). I then added that the clips still left me with grave doubts. They still do.
Pay attention.

Thanks for clarifying.

 

[Soundwave]

Oh c’mon, that’s just good editing. We’ve seen the hero tame one beast, why must we sit through the taming of a second, somewhat larger beast? Far better to withhold the reveal of Sully’s conquest until he makes his big entrance before the N’avi, thus enabling us to experience the moment in a more dramatic context.

My thoughts about the film always seem to echo your points and I always enjoy reading your posts as you articulate your opinions well. I just thought I'd highlight this part as I was going to address Rotwangs complaint, but I think you hit the nail on the head. I think it works so much better as is...and is a lot more dramatic.

For the record, whatever you say in this thread (or any subsequent Avatar-related thread), I second it!

 

[Carson Dyle]

Thanks.

The thing is, by the time we see Sully swooping down on the big, red, flying whatever-it's-called he's already made a character-defining choice to risk his life. All that's left is a physical battle similar to that which we've already seen (and a brilliantly conceived and executed battle it was).

Cameron isn't skirting over "character development" by omitting the redundant action because, from an emotional/ psychological perspective, there's no development to be had. It's just action.

Fact is, cutting away from Sully at that point is probably the smartest, most artistically sound cut in the entire film. If Michael Bay had followed suit Transformers 2 would be a twenty minute film (God forbid)!