How Star Wars exists for me now...

The Ewoks were frankly George's way of bringing back the more direct exploration of the Vietnam War into the narrative, as he originally wanted to do with the first Star Wars film - first with a band of feral Rebel boys, then a planet of proto-Wookiees, and then when everything was broken up into multiple films, it obviously got pushed to the third.

I always chuckle to myself at fans who dismiss or abhor the Ewoks because we have a bunch of semi-adorable, semi-creepy sentient teddy bears who will cheerfully eat human flesh. Somehow that demented aspect to them makes them quite hilariously enjoyable. :p
 
For me:
Rogue One
ANH (despecialized)
ESB (despecialized)
ROTJ (despecialized)
(Haven't watched Mandalorian yet, but could be good)

I like ROTJ but I hated the "new" ending. Especially the celebrations on Coruscant were total BS. I mean, there must have been Billions of people profiting from & supporting the Empire and I am sure they wouldn't celebrate the fall and demise of their way of life. (see everywhere in the real world at the moment)
 
The Ewoks were frankly George's way of bringing back the more direct exploration of the Vietnam War into the narrative, as he originally wanted to do with the first Star Wars film - first with a band of feral Rebel boys, then a planet of proto-Wookiees, and then when everything was broken up into multiple films, it obviously got pushed to the third.

I always chuckle to myself at fans who dismiss or abhor the Ewoks because we have a bunch of semi-adorable, semi-creepy sentient teddy bears who will cheerfully eat human flesh. Somehow that demented aspect to them makes them quite hilariously enjoyable. :p

Yeah people forget they were trying to EAT the main cast!
 
For me:
Rogue One
ANH (despecialized)
ESB (despecialized)
ROTJ (despecialized)
(Haven't watched Mandalorian yet, but could be good)

I like ROTJ but I hated the "new" ending. Especially the celebrations on Coruscant were total BS. I mean, there must have been Billions of people profiting from & supporting the Empire and I am sure they wouldn't celebrate the fall and demise of their way of life. (see everywhere in the real world at the moment)
I agree that the Coruscant shot during that ending sequence wasn't a very good choice. I mean, that was literally the heart of the empire. In my head cannon I like to think of that shot as a riot. People screaming in the streets, some in celebration, some in anger. Honestly if they went that rout it would have been quite interesting. We would get a sense of how the destruction of the empire could have actually caused quite an amount of chaos.
 
I think most of the people on Coruscant are just bureaucrats who just want a job. They didn't really notice much change when things went from a Republic to an Empire. There would be people there who would be diehard Imperials though. One of the X-Wing: Wraith Squadron novels had a slicer who helped broadcast the Death Star being destroyed and mentioned that after the SE celebration the Stormtroopers cracked down and put down the celebrations. Yeah it's not canon, but I thought it was an interesting spin on what happened.
 
For me:
Rogue One
ANH (despecialized)
ESB (despecialized)
ROTJ (despecialized)
(Haven't watched Mandalorian yet, but could be good)

I like ROTJ but I hated the "new" ending. Especially the celebrations on Coruscant were total BS. I mean, there must have been Billions of people profiting from & supporting the Empire and I am sure they wouldn't celebrate the fall and demise of their way of life. (see everywhere in the real world at the moment)
"Despecialized" was implicit in my list as nothing needed to be changed in those movies to fit any bad dreams I may have had. :lol:
 
I wish I could erase 4/9th of the Skywalker saga from my memory (and none of those 4 are from the postlogy).
Liked Solo, loved Rogue One, absolutely loved Fallen Order and Mandalorian.

Then again I watched my first Star Wars movie in my 30’s so I don’t have a whole lot of emotional investment in the franchise. I like the universe and mythos though as well as the world building through various media. I felt and still feel that Star Wars holds in itself the promise of something greater than what we got movie wise.
Wish it would have been a more planned out, cohesive story overall (dating back to the original trilogy as a matter of fact). And obviously I hate that Lucas went back and altered Ep. 4/5 (don‘t care for 6 one bit). I also hate that, despite being mediocre at staging action, tension and drama or directing actors, Lucas gets an insane amount of credit as a director, credit that I feel is only based on his vision for technical innovation (for which he should definitely get credit for, but that is not directing, or not everything a director should strive for).

Also looking forward to the Waititi movie and the planned Star Wars Land at Disneyland Paris.
 
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The Ewoks were frankly George's way of bringing back the more direct exploration of the Vietnam War into the narrative, as he originally wanted to do with the first Star Wars film - first with a band of feral Rebel boys, then a planet of proto-Wookiees, and then when everything was broken up into multiple films, it obviously got pushed to the third.

I always chuckle to myself at fans who dismiss or abhor the Ewoks because we have a bunch of semi-adorable, semi-creepy sentient teddy bears who will cheerfully eat human flesh. Somehow that demented aspect to them makes them quite hilariously enjoyable. :p


Yeah, but even as a kid, in 1984 or so (whenever "From Star Wars to Jedi: The Making of a Saga" came out), I thought it would have been so much better to have had the wookiees. George's answer was "Well, I'd shown them to be too technologically advanced," but that's easily overcome by demonstrating that they purposefully eschew the highest technology for a more harmonious existence with nature, instead of being literal primitives.

Like, ok, yeah, great, you watched Apocalypse Now and remember the scene with the spear to the chest. That doesn't mean you base a pivotal battle on that. It's enough to have homemade traps defeating technology, while also having the natives use modern weapons and being something other than cute widdle fuzzy-wuzzy teddy bears.

If the analogy is to the VC, they absolutely had modern weapons, supplied to them by the North Vietnamese. Sure, they'd use whatever they could get their hands on, but that makes them look a lot more like, oh, I dunno, Saw Guerrera's rebel cell in Rogue One than the aforementioned teddy bears.
 
Yeah, but even as a kid, in 1984 or so (whenever "From Star Wars to Jedi: The Making of a Saga" came out), I thought it would have been so much better to have had the wookiees. George's answer was "Well, I'd shown them to be too technologically advanced," but that's easily overcome by demonstrating that they purposefully eschew the highest technology for a more harmonious existence with nature, instead of being literal primitives.

Like, ok, yeah, great, you watched Apocalypse Now and remember the scene with the spear to the chest. That doesn't mean you base a pivotal battle on that. It's enough to have homemade traps defeating technology, while also having the natives use modern weapons and being something other than cute widdle fuzzy-wuzzy teddy bears.

If the analogy is to the VC, they absolutely had modern weapons, supplied to them by the North Vietnamese. Sure, they'd use whatever they could get their hands on, but that makes them look a lot more like, oh, I dunno, Saw Guerrera's rebel cell in Rogue One than the aforementioned teddy bears.

Yeah, that's Valid™. This is why even I do have a slightly ambivalent attitude toward the Wookiee battle in ROTS, because now we got to see what was actually intended in ROTJ...it just wound up in the wrong era, lol. (But boy, I wouldn't have wanted to see the price tag and the labor effort involved in making THAT many Wookiee suits back then.)

SW wasn't a stranger to "cutesy" or goofy diminutive aliens before then, though; we'd already had Jawas in ANH, then Ugnaughts in ESB (and Yoda if you want to count him). It already fell in the general vibe of this space romp, which included buttloads of characters and designs ripe for merchandising. Would Wookiees have been more badass to watch? Absolutely. Are the Ewoks dissatisfying to a lot of fans as a cop-out? Uh-huh. Are they totally out of left field in a trilogy that was previously super duper serious? Nah. And as infantile as it seems, I guess Lucas wanted to make a really hit-you-over-the-head obvious point about laser guns and mechno-tanks and armor being not just "defeated" but humiliated by...a bunch of cute widdle fuzzy-wuzzy teddy bears. Wookiees are 7-foot-tall snarling walls of fur and muscle, before we even get to them having or handling weapons - the fact that they're a hell of a lot more intimidating and physically capable (as in, they really could rip a guy's limbs or head off bare-handed if they wanted to) would have made the ground battle more of an evenly matched, traditional fight without that element of miraculous David & Goliath absurdity. Which, yes, is more superficially satisfying in that "cue the operatic Ultimate Showdown of Ultimate Destiny battle music, ****'s about to get real" sense, but not as, uh, unique, lol.

And, well...at least we didn't have any farting Ewoks. :p

I get it, sometimes we wish SW could have been more majestic in like a LOTR sense. Less juvenile slapstick and more highbrow, nuanced drama. This thread exists because we all have our quibbles and lines in the sand (me included) - I'm far more forgiving of murderbears than milking thala-sirens. But overall I'm OK with SW having this oddball blend of stupidity and seriousness; it's just that our mileage may vary on what we each consider a breach of ridiculousness or a missed opportunity and what does make a good fit for the wacky established universe.
 
Honestly, I didn't have a problem with Luke milking some creature's tit for milk. If Rambo had been out in the boondocks and he milked a goat for something to drink, no one would've thought too much about it. I mean, Luke's a Vet, he's seen and been through some pretty rough stuff!! It seems to me like we actually forget all the crap he has endured and just attest him to be this "perfectly good" person. Just because he is "The Hero"

The guy was raised by his aunt and uncle. He's an orphan. He really had no idea who he is or what happened to his family. Then, the only people he has ever known as parental figures are char-broiled by Stormtroopers and he has to see them lying there!! Imagine if you came home and your Mom and Dad were smoldering skeletons laying out in the yard?!! That, in and of itself, is enough to mess you up for the rest of your life!! F the war, F everything--that will screw with your head until the day you die!! Right then and there, IMHO Luke's sanity is in question.

Then, the poor teen is thrown into the bowels of the Death Star, fighting for his life. Yeah, he's only known Ben for a day or two, but it seemed like that old dude was trying to teach him some stuff that felt like it was important, plus the guy said he was a friend of his Father, who he had never known. That really gives him a connection to Obi-Wan. But, as soon as he is beginning to get to know him and discover The Force, well, that guy gets struck down also, by the one guy who he thinks killed his father. ****!! How much bad luck can this guy have??

So, he joins the Rebellion, blows up the Death Star and kills thousands and thousands of people. Yeah we, as an audience, just go "Yeah! Way to go! Kill all those Empire fuckers !!".....I'm just wondering, have you ever killed thousands of people?.......It's Memorial Day weekend and I'm watching all this WWII stuff about the 8th Air Force and those pilots talking about having to try to distance themselves from the fact that all those bombs they dropped actually killed lots and lots of people! Let's face it, war or not, Luke ended the life of tons of people. He's got to deal with that. That crap has got to weigh on your mind!!

Then, well, we are in the middle of a Star War, and he's in more battles. He is in his snowspeeder and his gunner gets wiped out. Who knows if Dac was his friend or not? Maybe, maybe not. But it's still a death he has to deal with, that happened right in front of him. Ok, he's a soldier, that crap happens. Deal with it.

So, let's go to Dagobah and try to learn some stuff. Let's have a vision that tells us that we are pretty much ordained to become Hitler. Our teacher tells us to just let our friends die because it is a trap. What a mind-mess up!!...Screw that! I'm gonna help my friends! Well, that don't work out so good. Not only do I get the holy crap beaten out of me and get my hand chopped off! I learn that Hitler is my Dad, and the only person I trusted lied to me. Now, I have no clue what is going on and I kind of feel like maybe I am Hitler, too.

By the time we get to Return of the Jedi, Luke has to have some serious mental problems. He's trying to be a Jedi in a galaxy that has no Jedi left in it. Maybe he's got Force ghosts or what-not to talk to, but he is totally and utterly alone. He might think he is a Jedi, but he doesn't even really have any idea what that means. He's never really known a real Jedi. A little bit of Yoda training, some Force ghost Obi wan talking to, yeah. But, these are things he can't really take into context, because he really doesn't know what it means to be a Jedi. He's pretty much making it up as he goes on knowledge given to him by things that are not around any more.

Then, finally, you've got to the point where your Dad, who you've never known, is the worst person (to your knowledge) in the entire galaxy. You're just confronted with a scenario of "Well, kill your Dad, or we are all screwed".......Would you want to have to kill your father because he was a bad person? I know I wouldn't...That..in...itself...is the worst thing I could ever possibly think of..(unless it was my mother)....

Finally, we find out that Dad is just a pawn...He doesn't even really matter...it was all just a game to get to me...Whether my dad was cool, or bad, or a war hero, or whatever...doesn't matter...he was just a cheap piece of crap playing a part in this old frog-looking guy's chess game to get "unlimited power!!!"

Well, here we are. Dad just beat the crap out of me, almost killed me....and then tells me if I won't turn around he's gonna take it out on my sister!! Who, until a day or so, I didn't even know was my sister! Hell, I had the hots for her for a couple of years and didn't know!! WTF??!........

So, I gotta kill the guy who has been manipulating my Dad for decades. The ol' man finally turns against the Emperor, saves my ass and kills the old dude.....but does that redeem my Dad? The guy killed -oh my God--how many countless people? Can I forgive him for that? Just because he saved me?...The rest of the galaxy probably doesn't give a rat's ass about his redemption. The guy was a dick head, plain and simple....

Where do I go from here? Am I just Luke Skywalker, hero of the Rebellion? Well, all is just well and good, we defeated the Empire? I'm Luke Skywalker, hero to all? What does that mean exactly?

Ok, that just gets us to the end of the OT. Does the galaxy just have a happy ending? Well, I hope so. We ended the war and Han and my sister got married and had a kid. He seemed strong in the Force, but, sorry, I had misgivings about this kid from the beginning. None of this crap is ever easy. When the Force is involved, there is just stuff you can never predict....Prophecies, Force balances, up and down, left and right....none of that stuff makes any sense when you are actually having to deal with it in the "real world."

And here we go again..... Han and Leia's kid seems cool at first. Let's train him. Get his ass on the right train from the start!! Teach him all that Jedi stuff! So far, he's awesome!!

Aw Hell! Just had one of those Jedi dreams/premonitions/whatever...This kid might...just might...I dunno, it was just a thought, might end up being just as bad or worse than Pop or Palps. ......In a moment of weakness, kinda had one of those "DeadZone" moments....Would you kill Hitler as a kid? Maybe knowing what could come of it, I might....

And that is where Luke was........He drew his lightsaber, but then....was he going to do it or not? Personally, I don't give a damn about whether it was a kid sleeping or not. If I was in Luke's shoes, I would have thought about the same thing, too.. And if you tell me you would not have--you're a ****** liar!!..

My point is this; forget that "Luke Skywalker" is this wonderful, great, movie hero you have grown up with. Thinking he is this super Jedi who is beyond corruption, and think of him as the person he probably would be, considering all he has been through.

Talk to a real vet who has been through the horrors of war. It's not all cut and dry as you think....
 
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Well said - but this is why acknowledging that Luke is PTSD'ed to hell and back leads me more down the road of, say, Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor instead of TLJ. Like I said, different strokes for different folks.

"This isn't my best trick."

Luke is a fictional hero - it's true that everything he went through in the OT alone most people couldn't handle at all, let alone as decently as he did. (We could say the same of Leia, who was a victim of genocide and torture.) But I didn't sign up to love him so that I could watch him depress me later; I have Real Life™ to do that for me. I prefer to let Luke be an inspirational figure who does suffer and struggle, but perseveres, so that I have something to uplift me when the world outside wants to make me crawl into a hole and never come out again.
 
You guys are all a bunch of meanies. Have you no heart?? The Mouse has read every unkind word spoken about the Sequel Trilogy and his heart is broken.

There, there little guy. Don’t you listen to them. Pin—er, I mean Fynn—and Poe, Rey, and regurgitated Harold Q. Palpatine...they are all my faves, sincerely. You did not go wrong with your $4 billion investment.

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Can’t a few of you just lie about it and say that you love the Sequel Trilogy, just this once?
 
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Can’t a few of you just lie about it and say that you love the Sequel Trilogy, just this once?

I mean, I love it. That's no lie. I love all of the films and TV shows for different reasons. I grew up with the OT as a small child, lived through the Prequels and the hype through my pre-teen/teen years, and now the Sequels and Spin Offs as an adult. I've enjoyed it all and had tremendous fun along the way.
 
I saw this comment on a YouTube video and I think it nails the sentiment of fans like myself:


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Shannon Love 5 days ago

Since Luke is the character audiences identify with, then disrespecting Luke makes the audience themselves feel disrespected.

-On a video by Midnight's Edge

There is no catharsis in seeing a beloved hero make the same mistakes 30 years later because it means that they never learned the lesson in the first place, thus invalidating everything they've been through. Luke is an archetype created for people to aspire to. Narratively speaking there is no reason for him to repeat his hero cycle all over again.

Life is awful enough. Does something as fun and uplifting as Star Wars need to be infected with cynicism too?

I don't understand this need to tear down Luke as though he is somehow unworthy of adoration as a character. Are we no longer allowed to have heroes in fiction? And don't feed me that line of BS that true heroes all have to be morally ambiguous in fiction to work because that's a false argument.

The title alone says everything you need to know about the series. It's called Star Wars. The entire appeal of the series is that it's a giant battle in space and not completely bogged down in the dismal reality of our world. I get enough of that in my daily life. We can use some optimism. Especially when it's coming from escapist entertainment.

I guess we're not allowed to aspire to be something greater, which is what Luke represented when he overcame his flaws. That's the entire point of having fictional heroes. To inspire us to be better. Your version of Luke doesn't inspire anything in me but ambivalence.
 
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*missed point*
Seeing Luke drink sea cow milk straight from the tiddy isn't the issue. The issue is seeing Luke run and hide from his responsibilities. Now I can see Luke reach a point where he feels he's doing more harm than good and remove himself from the picture. But when his sister seeks his help LUKE SKYWALKER would drop the tiddies and everything else and come to help, because that's what LUKE SKYWALKER does. Mark himself has said he had to think of the sequel character as Jake Skywalker because he certainly wasn't Luke.
 
My point is this; forget that "Luke Skywalker" is this wonderful, great, movie hero you have grown up with. Thinking he is this super Jedi who is beyond corruption, and think of him as the person he probably would be, considering all he has been through.
But he IS a wonderful, great, movie hero. Why set that aside? Having to do so in order for the story to work is by default an admission that his actions are out of character.
 
But he IS a wonderful, great, movie hero. Why set that aside? Having to do so in order for the story to work is by default an admission that his actions are out of character.
It also demonstrates that the new "creatives" don't get the characters or the story, and lack the talent to make new stories work within the existing framework.
 
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