Currently a lot of movies are made by a "soulless machine" (a soulless corporate meat grinding machine by committee) cranking out generic content
Hollywood’s current state of failure and the reasons for it
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Lightning
Master Member
Yeah, I just like having an in-universe justification to go along with the production reason.
VanPersie
Well-Known Member
How many bands/solo singers/musicians over the decades have had to contend with extremely vocal “fans” whinging and moaning that their newest releases are “not as good as their old stuff”, or “they sold out”, simply because they did something new?
People can’t make up their minds whether they want new, or they want exactly what came before to happen again, even if what came before just happened to be released at the right moment that it hits something in society that resonates.
Marvel will never get back the feeling that Iron Man to the first Avengers film had. Star Wars could never be what the OT was, and Slipknot will never get near to their Iowa era.
Times have changed, generations are different, which is why things like Hollywood are stuck in a no man’s land as to what they have to offer people. They can’t decide who they really want to cater for so try to cater for all, which seemingly confuses them when it doesn’t go as well as they think it should have done.
To be honest, we as the general public, individually especially, need to come to a realisation that some of us are going to be left out in the cold with what is offered, then decide if we are that bothered by that and continue to enjoy the films etc that we loved from decades past, or we just keep railing against it in the vain hope that eventually the studios will choose to cater for us and not others.
People can’t make up their minds whether they want new, or they want exactly what came before to happen again, even if what came before just happened to be released at the right moment that it hits something in society that resonates.
Marvel will never get back the feeling that Iron Man to the first Avengers film had. Star Wars could never be what the OT was, and Slipknot will never get near to their Iowa era.
Times have changed, generations are different, which is why things like Hollywood are stuck in a no man’s land as to what they have to offer people. They can’t decide who they really want to cater for so try to cater for all, which seemingly confuses them when it doesn’t go as well as they think it should have done.
To be honest, we as the general public, individually especially, need to come to a realisation that some of us are going to be left out in the cold with what is offered, then decide if we are that bothered by that and continue to enjoy the films etc that we loved from decades past, or we just keep railing against it in the vain hope that eventually the studios will choose to cater for us and not others.
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The current Hollywood writers' strike is an example of how contaminated the industry has become, and how disillusioned some industry folks are.Netflix's $900,000 Job Listing For AI Expert is Alarming.
Other major studios like Disney and Sony are also offering six-figure salaries for AI specialists.
Writers And Actors Balk At Netflix's $900,000 Job Listing For AI Expert
Other major studios like Disney and Sony are also offering six-figure salaries for AI specialists.www.huffpost.com
Multiple Hollywood Studios Hiring Expensive AI Experts As Writers & Actors Strike For AI Regulations
AI is a major issue in ongoing Hollywood strikes.screenrant.com
I've generally been sympathetic with past industry union strikes, except for this one. Mainly because in the last few years there's been an explosion of unsustainable, low-quality, poorly written content. From films to shows to commercials. The current strike is merely reality catching up with the general lack of talent that's causing huge loses.
I'll guess 80% of writers (at the very least) have little to no writing skills. And these same writers behind all this bad content nobody watches are demanding their fair share of the streaming revenue from profits generated by good content, written by the remaining 20%. Okay...
Can't blame studios who are held back by entitled poor talent for looking at alternate solutions to develop better products.
Even if the 'suits' at the top fall into that category, I can pretty much guarantee that juist about every person working on the actual 'content' wants to make something good. (Gaming is no different. The bean counters tell developers what to do, then they bleed and sweat their lifeblood trying to make something that isn't soulless.)
The studios stopped hiring 'real' talent in lieu of younger, unskilled yes-people who would do exactly as told without pushing back against bad ideas. So now all the hack writers and the talented ones are in the same boat. As much as I despise the work of some writers on a few modern shows, and dearly hope they don't get to help ruin more franchises in the future, it's kinda hard to put all the blame on them for their nature. (I mean, what wannabe-writer, skilled or not, is going to say 'no thanks' when offered a gig by a studio?)
Cephus
Master Member
Agreed. I am sympathetic to a few of their points, such as not wanting to be scanned and paid for a day and have their likeness used in perpetuity. That should never be allowed to happen and, I don't think the law as it is currently written, would allow it. Everyone has a right to their own likeness.
The rest though, screw the unions. They are desperately trying to live in an untenable past that doesn't exist anymore. Just because you did a thing and lived off it for the rest of your lives before, that is not the world that we live in today. If you want to get paid, go do more work. Stop whining.
If you're afraid of AI, then be better than it is. You might not be able to beat it in quantity, but you'd better be able to beat it in quality and sadly, I think we all know that modern Hollywood writers can't. Disney has lost almost a billion dollars in theatrical failures this year alone and the year isn't close to being over. I might not say if the box office was humming and tons of great shows were coming out. Instead, we're getting Secret Invasion and Indiana Jones and the Dial of Dysentary. These are terrible shows and miserable failures and while I agree it isn't entirely the fault of the writers, they have to take the responsibility for their part. They thought that streaming would never end, even though it was obvious from the start that it was going to crash and burn and now they are crying "we didn't get the riches we thought we were going to get!"
Too bad. Go cry to someone who cares.
Lightning
Master Member
If you only get residuals on your stuff, I'm not sure how that would happen.
In all fairness, though... that's not the fault of 95% of the people working on the movies that failed. Blame the studio heads, the exec producers, the head writer or showrunner and the director. Everyone else is just doing what they are told, to the best of their abilities.
I cry just as much for the thousands of truck drivers who will soon be out of jobs due to AI-driven trucks as I do the writers and actors. And in the case of the latter, the AI is effectively stealing the hard work of talented people to replace them. That's not OK.
We're staring down the barrel of a future world where AI does all the creative, civilization-growing and spiritually uplifting work, while we humans will be left with the dirty, back-breaking things. The anti-Star Trek, if you will.
The residuals negotiations for union contracts are based on overall revenue of the streaming industry. Not just revenue "per project."
If you're a good writer, you can still negotiate a better contract than a lesser writer. The negotiations are for baseline contracts + benefits.
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Lightning
Master Member
Just once I'd like to see someone do a qualitative analysis of a random sampling of Golden Age of Hollywood scripts vs a random sampling of movies today and see if modern writing really is worse. We only remember the good stuff.
CB2001
Master Member
For me, from how I’ve interpreted what is going on, the reason why Hollywood is in its place is because they’ve hired people who are not good storytellers. They have the technical know-how, like how to write in the proper script format, but they don’t know something as basic as story structure and character development. They have directors who don’t know what they’re doing and just want actors to just do things how they’re written on the page without rhyme or reason, and don’t even give any justification behind a character’s choice. There’s clearly no creativity behind It anymore. And when people point out how bad the story is, these people then use terms like “racism”, “sexism”, “homophobia/transphobia“, “mysognists” and “toxic fandoms.” as terms to defend themselves against legit criticisms, and as a coping mechanism (for example: the lead actor of the film Bros, a film about homosexual guys dating, straight out blamed straight people for it failing at the box office).
When you have people looking at older works and seeing how much better the storytelling is in comparison to modern stuff, there’s clearly an issue with quality of storytelling. And what’s worse, these people have their heads in the sand and refuse to see how bad these films and shows are in comparison. These people are basically those that think their work is top tier gold award winners when in fact their films are participation trophy mediocre. And the rare few that are good actually try to tell a good story with well developed characters, not half-assing it like most of the others nowadays. The audience is literary telling the studios what doesn’t work for a while now, and they refused to listen. The audience is the canary in the coal mine, and the foremen are just ignoring the fact the bird is slowly dying. And now, the human bodies are dropping, and the foremen are claiming, “Why didn‘t the canary warn us sooner?” That’s as basic as it seems to me. I’m sure there’s probably more behind the scenes I’m not seeing, but what I do see is a lot of people not putting in the effort to make a good story, and those that even try are getting ragged when their stuff succeeds by those whose stuff fails (when you have Steven Spielberg publicly seen thanking Tom Cruise for making Top Gun: Maverick, saying that it’s because of him that he’s saved Hollywood’s ass, while there are websites saying that TG:M was crap and that it had “too much Tom Cruise in it”, with them saying it should have been like The Last Jedi, there’s clearly a problem with the people who are in Hollywood now making these newer films).
But, again, that’s just what I’m able to see with the limited view I have access to.
When you have people looking at older works and seeing how much better the storytelling is in comparison to modern stuff, there’s clearly an issue with quality of storytelling. And what’s worse, these people have their heads in the sand and refuse to see how bad these films and shows are in comparison. These people are basically those that think their work is top tier gold award winners when in fact their films are participation trophy mediocre. And the rare few that are good actually try to tell a good story with well developed characters, not half-assing it like most of the others nowadays. The audience is literary telling the studios what doesn’t work for a while now, and they refused to listen. The audience is the canary in the coal mine, and the foremen are just ignoring the fact the bird is slowly dying. And now, the human bodies are dropping, and the foremen are claiming, “Why didn‘t the canary warn us sooner?” That’s as basic as it seems to me. I’m sure there’s probably more behind the scenes I’m not seeing, but what I do see is a lot of people not putting in the effort to make a good story, and those that even try are getting ragged when their stuff succeeds by those whose stuff fails (when you have Steven Spielberg publicly seen thanking Tom Cruise for making Top Gun: Maverick, saying that it’s because of him that he’s saved Hollywood’s ass, while there are websites saying that TG:M was crap and that it had “too much Tom Cruise in it”, with them saying it should have been like The Last Jedi, there’s clearly a problem with the people who are in Hollywood now making these newer films).
But, again, that’s just what I’m able to see with the limited view I have access to.
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Cephus
Master Member
95% of people working on movies or TV shows don't get residuals and honestly, I don't think the last 5% should either. Until the set dressers are making money, the actors shouldn't be either, and we all know there just isn't enough money out there to pay them all. We have to be realistic and Hollywood is based on absurd wishful thinking.
AI isn't stealing anything. It isn't capable. It is doing what it is programmed to do, that is all. The only constant in life is change and whether anyone likes it or not, things are going to change and people are going to have to adapt. The idea that things should always remain as they are because it makes some people sad to do otherwise is pathetic. That's not how reality works.
Star Trek has always been absurdly idealistic and unrealistic. If that's what you were expecting, I don't know what to tell you. AI are doing the creative stuff because the creative stuff is easy. Anyone can do it. It just takes a special person to do it well and at the moment at least, AI is crap at it. That will change and people need to adapt to the new reality.
Paul Andrew
Master Member
I think that if the studios make money on a product beyond it's initial air date or theatrical run or whatehaveyou, everyone who worked on it should get a piece. But that's not how corporations currently work...
AI isn't genuinely AI. It doesn't think. It vomits back results based on the things it has been trained on, that people made previously. So, while the AI isn't stealing anything, whoever is using it is basically pilfering someone(s) else's work with a thin veneer of "made by a computer" all over it.
Bad versions of "the creative stuff" is easy. And I don't know that it takes a special person to do it well as much as it takes people who have dedicated years of work and practice to the craft. We shouldn't devalue their experience or efforts by feeding it to what is essentially a digital art vacuum.
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VanPersie
Well-Known Member
Then by all of this logic, inheritance should be banned and investing in businesses/stocks would be gone.
A.I. and stealing -
Does a 100-ton earth mover do the same thing as one guy swinging a shovel?
The US Constitution protected the right to own a smooth-bore musket in the 1700s. Should individuals have the right to own nuclear weapons today?
If couples have the legal right to get pregnant & have children, does that give them the right to set up cloning factories and produce offspring by the millions?
A.I. generators can crank out endless content for free. This is uncharted territory. We have multiple choices right now, but "stick with the old laws and maintain the old system" is not one of them. The old laws won't produce the same outcome in new conditions.
All this applies way beyond AI-generated movie scripts. AI is likely to wipe out many millions of jobs in the next few decades. Our whole economic framework is going to change. If we intentionally change the system then it will change, and if we try to keep it the same then it will change anyway. There is no un-inventing AI.
We should have started grappling with these issues decades ago when factory automation was decimating blue-collar jobs. But our society collectivelly didn't care enough because it didn't affect enough white-collar people. Well, now AI is coming to finish the job.
Does a 100-ton earth mover do the same thing as one guy swinging a shovel?
The US Constitution protected the right to own a smooth-bore musket in the 1700s. Should individuals have the right to own nuclear weapons today?
If couples have the legal right to get pregnant & have children, does that give them the right to set up cloning factories and produce offspring by the millions?
A.I. generators can crank out endless content for free. This is uncharted territory. We have multiple choices right now, but "stick with the old laws and maintain the old system" is not one of them. The old laws won't produce the same outcome in new conditions.
All this applies way beyond AI-generated movie scripts. AI is likely to wipe out many millions of jobs in the next few decades. Our whole economic framework is going to change. If we intentionally change the system then it will change, and if we try to keep it the same then it will change anyway. There is no un-inventing AI.
We should have started grappling with these issues decades ago when factory automation was decimating blue-collar jobs. But our society collectivelly didn't care enough because it didn't affect enough white-collar people. Well, now AI is coming to finish the job.
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bwayne64
Master Member
I remember when Jurassic Park was made. The stop motion animators like Phil Tippet thought they would be dinosaurs. Then Phil developed the Dino Input Device to interface with the CGI software. The best of both worlds. His many years of moving stop motion models, was integrated into the world of the computer. A.I. is coming and if it doesn't kill us off quickly, we'll still need movies to watch. We just need to find the way forward. How do we treat actors, writers, and crew fairly, while embracing the inevitable, or we can ban A.I. and start the War of the Machines now. Hey that would make a good movie, ; )
adamszki427
Active Member
perhaps a different discussion altogether but is the problem really not just as simple as people being people? as someone already mentioned people complaining about the price of something and then paying the same for a burger etc. likewise people happy to pay over retail for something such as a pair of shoes with no exclusivity whatsoever just because people buy them all and hike the prices to resell. HYPE is making people crazy. Movie hype is often a problem too... i used to be a fan of the Fast and furious movies early on but now we arrive at number 10 or whatever number it is and the trailer and caricature bad guy is just ridiculous. clinging on to cash cows is not what studios should be doing. i feel very similar about MCU movies... there are just too many to make any of them significant enough for me to go see. the solution? who knows, i feel like if i just say that originality and innovation is the answer thats too broad and generalised.
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