Han Solo Holster - Screen Accurate Pattern

Discussion in 'Star Wars Costumes and Props' started by Crazylegsmurphy, Jan 16, 2015.

  1. Egon

    Egon Well-Known Member

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    Not sure when that extra snap showed up - my guess, though i can't find any photos - is that it might have been added to get over the thickness of the Hoth pants, probably while on the Tauntaun.
     
  2. phillbarron

    phillbarron Jr Member

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    Good call. Might just be the angle of the photo, but it kind of looks like the snap is facing the other way.
     
  3. Davy Jones

    Davy Jones Well-Known Member

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    I looked through some images and it appears to me that the ANH belt parts are seen throughout ESB with a new holster.
    In the Echo Base Hanger shots as Egon pointed out,
    Here in the Echo Base Medical Bay:
    lfl - 1451.jpg

    And repairing the Falcon:
    Repairing the Hyperdrive.jpg
     
  4. Davy Jones

    Davy Jones Well-Known Member

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  5. old willy

    old willy New Member

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    Thanks for posting those pictures, perhaps I did not notice before but that first one really shows ( at least to me ) that the pouches on the ANH are separate pieces not a continuous piece and they are folded under and attached buy sewing or riveting ( would still love to see the back of the belt )
    It sort of looks like the prop department over sprayed the belt to darken it as there seems to me more of a color variation where the pouch folds under, it just seems more obvious than in ANH. I remember there was debate about construction methods earlier on in this conversation. I agree the holster is new but at least parts of the belt are recycled. This certainly helps with my plans for my ANH version.

    I think there my be enough information posted to just come up with my own plans now, I think it is time to put pencil to paper and knife to leather. :D
     
  6. zsherman

    zsherman Well-Known Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Stupid question. ANOVOS has access screen used assets. Obviously they’re never 100% but is there’s based on ANH, ESB or ROTJ? I looks like ANH minus a few details to me.


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  7. Davy Jones

    Davy Jones Well-Known Member

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    Exactly.
    Yeah I never bought that theory of the pouches being all one piece. Just wouldn't make sense.
    I havent been through every shot in the film yet, but I'd say we can almost put in stone that if someone is doing an ESB rig,they should make ANH belt parts with ESB hooks.
    I'm going to check my ANH reference next and find out whether I think they were darkened or just showing more wear.
     
  8. zsherman

    zsherman Well-Known Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    I have an ANOVOS rig if anyone wants pics of it. Just offering.


    Sent from my Starfleet-issue communicator
     
  9. Egon

    Egon Well-Known Member

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    Thank you so much for posting these!! I had suspected these photos would show that ANH belt but have never had the high res images to say with confidence!
     
  10. phillbarron

    phillbarron Jr Member

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    Screen Shot 2015-01-18 at 7.42.03 AM.png

    Just found this on the first page of this thread. Looks like your guess was right!
     
  11. phillbarron

    phillbarron Jr Member

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    And this was on page 3:

     
  12. Egon

    Egon Well-Known Member

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    Does anyone have any screen caps of the stitched pockets in the film? I’m curious what holsters are in what’s scenes
     
  13. Davy Jones

    Davy Jones Well-Known Member

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    Yeah the sewn pouches definitely show up in ESB era promo shots but were they shown on film?
    I have one shot from Norway that I think shows them but not clear yet.
    Also I've identified the main holster piece used but there may have been others.
    Pictures coming soon.
     
  14. Egon

    Egon Well-Known Member

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    Great!

    To my eyes, it also looks like the belts buckles are the same as the ANH. There aren’t many shots of the rear buckle in ANH, but from the cantina shots and the re-visited Hutt scenes, the warping on them looks pretty darn close.


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  15. Davy Jones

    Davy Jones Well-Known Member

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    Han Hoth.jpg
    Ok, so it appears a sewn pouch belt was used in Norway but every other scene I've examined so far show that the ANH belt was primarily used.
    Why the prop people did this is anyone's guess.
     
  16. Ridire Firean

    Ridire Firean Sr Member

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    Hey Gang! I see a line on the top and the bottom of the ANH belt that makes me think that the entire belt is overlaid with a second strip/piece of leather that simply bumps up and has tabs that fold under the loops for the pouches. What do y'all see?
     
  17. monsterpartyhat

    monsterpartyhat Well-Known Member

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    The color of that belt also looks lighter than the other one! I presume it was different because they needed a larger belt to fit over the outside of the bulky Hoth winter coat.
     
  18. Davy Jones

    Davy Jones Well-Known Member

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    Very possible, I didnt even think of that!
    The belt is pretty tight on him and even though he is wearing it higher on his midsection, the coat is quite bulky.
     
  19. CWOODREPLICAS

    CWOODREPLICAS Member

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    I agree that he looks like he’s wearing it higher, which will give some more room to manoeuvre with it (as opposed to on his hips)
     
  20. phillbarron

    phillbarron Jr Member

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    Those lines are grooves cut into the leather, you can see them more clearly in this photo:

    360054336_01d6ac500a_o.jpg

    And yet the ANH belt fits just fine over it here:

    hothhanbrown.jpg

    Would that be a different, thinner coat for studio work? Or maybe less layers underneath?
     
  21. zsherman

    zsherman Well-Known Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    I guarantee you he was cold as hell and didn’t want that jacket blowing open, the belt coming off (any of us that have worn one knows how easily the holster can come away from the buckles just with walking) or it falling into the snow. They probably just ratcheted it tighter in the back snaps for a more secure fit during those outside scenes.


    Sent from my Starfleet-issue communicator
     
  22. Egon

    Egon Well-Known Member

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    Great shot of the stitched belt!
     
  23. Crazylegsmurphy

    Crazylegsmurphy Active Member

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    Ok...

    A lot to unpack here. I'll try to break this down a bit.

    1. ANH Single strip or riveted

    I realize that I may never convince everyone of this, but after looking at probably every Episode 4 photo available, it is evident to me that it is a single strip of leather, glued down over the belt. I won't rehash all my reasoning, but the most basic evidence to me is how the light bounces off the crease of each pocket. It, to me is clearly a convex shape - sloped like a skateboard ramp. If you look at the final pocket, you can see how it does curve under. Were as on the front pocket - canister - there is no clear break in the leather as it continues under the hook.

    The new photos submitted show this in even better detail in my opinion and shows that there is a cast shadow under the strip suggesting it is raised and not just a groove. That is all I'll say about that for now.

    2. ANH belt in ESB?

    Here is where things start to get a little wacky. First, there is no doubt that the sewn pocket version exists. We have photo evidence of it both as a prop and in the film. I don't think there can be much debate on that. What I am interested in are the details of the photos posted here.

    We know that the Episode 4 belt did not have visible rivets on the hooks. In the photos posted, the one from the medical bay, does have rivets, whereas the black and white one does not. So, this means that if the Episode 4 belt was used in Episode 5, at some point the hooks needed to be replaced.

    One might argue that they needed to redo the hooks to fit the rectangular buckle. If this was the case though, it doesn't explain the version without the rivets, but with the rectangular buckle.

    3. Shooting Schedules

    The reason my reply has been so late is because I was doing my best to track down shooting schedules. Having worked in film, all movies have a shooting/location schedule. I was hoping that there were some still laying around for Episode 5, but it would seem that none of my resources or emails were going to turn up anything we didn't already know.

    Regardless, we do know that movies are often shot out of order and in different locations. We also know that almost no movies are brave enough to make one version of a prop - I think there were 12 fedoras made for KOTCS for example.

    It is likely that any combination of the following happened:

    - Harrison Ford put on weight
    - There were multiple versions of the holster made and parts were used/reused
    - Multiple versions existed in different parts of the world as it might have been cheaper to make a new holster than ship one to a new location.

    We also know that costumes change from scene to scene depending on many factors, so it is entirely possible that there were many versions of the holster used on this film depending on where it was filmed, what was happening on screen - stunt vs. hero - and how many chicken wings Harrison was eating with his new found fame.

    4. That line is no yoke!

    We have evidence that the Episode 4 yoke - thigh piece - was reused in Episode 6. Where it went for ESB is anyone's guess.

    I see no evidence that the Episode 4 yoke was used in Episode 5. There are simply no images that I can see that support this. There is no edge line on any of the versions I can see.

    ...

    What is happening here is a bit of a guess. I think someone mentioned that a likely scenario is that parts from each rig have been swapped around and updated for the set, stunt men, displays, etc. We know things were often reused by the prop department - Stormtroopers - so there is no reason to think it didn't happen here.

    As I continue to study the photos here in greater detail there are little hits of things that make me wonder. For example, it does look like on the photo in the medical bay, that one of the hooks may have been removed and replaced with the riveted version as it appears that the leather is worn in that spot, like when you take a painting off the wall after many years.

    I think we can conclude one thing for sure. The ANH belt pouches were not sewn. At all. No if, ands, or buts. :D
     
  24. Crazylegsmurphy

    Crazylegsmurphy Active Member

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    I am with you on this one as well.

    I believe it was constructed by putting a groove in the belt along the entire length. Then, a single, very thin strip of leather was glued down using blocks or the props to keep the shape, then the bottoms and end were tucked under and glued.

    This would have been a super fast way to create pockets without sewing or riveting. To me the evidence is that in multiple shots there is a concave - lighter - edge on the pouches. It looks concave to me in almost every photo except in the sepia one where you can clearly see the end was tucked under creating a strong shadow. If the pouches had been tucked under individually we would likely see very strong shadows under each one as they attached to the belt.

    Secondly, we can see that there is a cast shadow on the bottom between the pouches. In some photos it is more evident, but to me there is clearly some depth to it. Also, to me it logically makes sense if you consider the canister greeblie.

    If it was folded under and glued, it would create a situation in which there would likely not be enough surface area to hold the greeblie on that tight. Bumping the greeblie would likely result in it ripping off or it would "wobble" as the actor moved. If it were a single piece of leather, the left and right side would be so firmly stuck that there would be no way it would rip off. All they had to do was put in the greeblie and tuck the edges in as tight as they wanted. This could only be done with a single piece of leather.


    It has been a tough sell for many on this forum, but I am 95% convinced that it is a single piece.

    I should add that I do believe the button pouch was not a single piece but folded under on three sides and glued/riveted. There is a clear line of shadow on each side of that pouch indicating that the leather did not originate from under the hook as it does on the other side.
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2018
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  25. old willy

    old willy New Member

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    Hi all,
    Well some good conversation is happening here again :)!

    I am starting to think this belt rig project is just a bottomless pit sometimes. I now really believe that the latter versions are sort of a mix and match affair depending on the costume and location. The prop department was not overly concerned so long as it looked right in the long shot. If any of you have really worked in movies, you know what I mean ;) . But no fault to the original crew at all, they were making a movie and they had a budget to worry about also. It may come down to deciding which seen or location you want to build a rig for. That is a bit too detail oriented for me right now, so I will take the, looks right, is right, approach somewhat on this project, like the original prop masters seem to have.


    For example my DL44 is based on an HFC airsoft Mauser M712 pistol so it has a selector lever on the left side and a removable magazine. The detail parts are from Todd’s for the ANH version but due to the fact I am in Canada and getting a Denix or MGC version is prohibited, the all metal airsoft version is my best option. Everyone I have
    shown it to has not complained ( other than about the weight ) so it looks right, is right. Check it out, I posted a pic back on page 11( I think). Sure I guess it is more right for the newer TFA version but it was the best I could do at the time.

    As for this belt pouch topic we are on, monsieur Murphy, you used the word “wobbly” and that got me really thinking….you are right, the prop department need them to be tight, you don’t want to go dropping your greeblies all over the galaxy…… :D and then I was thinking that other than using the driod caller
    ( that apparently had to be tied to the clip) you never see any of the other ANH greeblies in use, they stay in the belt….I now put forth that they are actually fastened to the belt :eek !

    The "pouch” is formed by wrapping the leather around the greeblie and the whole lot is screwed or pop riveted from the back side and not going to easily fall off. This also works for the direction they were given to “hide the fasteners” or something to that effect. Yes on a costume belt having the greeblies removable is great and does present a challenge but on a non-functioning movie prop you want those little bits firmly attached.
    So just perhaps we have been barking up the wrong tree a bit.

    This is not intended to throw water on anyone’s ideas, it is just my own 2 cents and really this fastened greeblie thought popped into my pointy little head right after reading the last post about them needing to be tight, etc. I suggest you all try your own experiments, I am going to try mocking it up both ways but I am sure the prop department would have gone for the easy way …..whatever that turns out to be….
    Your results may vary, use according to directions.........:D
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 9, 2018
  26. Wailonskydog

    Wailonskydog Well-Known Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Re: pouches being one strip of leather glued on.

    If you look at the color pics posted above from ESB you can see that the area where the pouches meet the belt are a lighter shade. This could easily result from the wet-molding process of making that piece. Typically if you want to form leather around an object you get it wet, put it over the object and then use a stiff object to crease the leather where it needs to bend. This results in a nice crisp molding but also burnishes the leather sometimes making it harder for dye to absorb in that particular area leading to a slightly lighter shade of brown.

    As a leather worker I can see that happening here, but it could also just be the way the belt was weathered.

    But on the other hand (and I think this is where I stand on the matter) it doesn't make a whole lot of sense that they would make the pouches that way because you couldn't just cut an even width strip of leather. You'd have to leave tabs sticking out for the square pouches. That method would need considerable planning, would be exceedingly difficult to actually do, and would take a lot of extra time compared to other simpler ways.

    If I were doing it, the easiest/simplest way would be to make each pouch individually and then glue or rivet them to the belt. Pictures can be very misleading and in my mind looking at practicality in terms of the prop department has to trump the way the light behaves in a few pictures. In fact, in some of the promotional shots from ANH that I just went back and looked at you can just about see the leather of the pouches curving back around and underneath in a way that wouldn't be possible of it were one strip molded on each greeblie. So the pictures seem like a wash one way or another.



    Han-Solo-Fathead-01.png
     
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  27. old willy

    old willy New Member

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    Or....... I could be completely wrong too.........:lol
     
  28. Davy Jones

    Davy Jones Well-Known Member

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    No you are 100% right. :)
    The only thing I'm not sure about is the wet molding causing the lighter spots. I think the belt was the lighter color when it was assembled and those areas are just were the darker weathering dismt get to
     
  29. phillbarron

    phillbarron Jr Member

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    Belt.PNG

    The more I look at the photos, the more I become convinced there's some kind of particle/wave duality going on here. It's like the pouches are both individual and a continuous strip simultaneously.

    In the above photo I think I can see the leather curving back and behind/under the white relay greeblie. That would mean it would have to bend back on itself in what seems like an impossibly tight (to me, a person who knows nothing about leather) crease before heading towards the sparklet canister. There doesn't seem to be any reflection off the top of the leather strip between the first relay pouch and canister either? Presumably the strip would have to be the same thickness as the pouches it forms?

    On the other hand, the leather doesn't seem to curve around the canister, it seems to hit the belt and then immediately turn back towards the buckle in a way which may not allow enough gluing/riveting material.

    As an aside, I had to glue the canister in on my belt. I just couldn't get the leather tight enough around it. Or rather, it was a tight fit when first made, but quickly slackened off until the canister just pushes through and drops to the floor with the slightest touch. I'd argue the movie one was probably glued in too ... but then there's something different in (apparently) the same pouch/belt in ESB, so maybe it wasn't glued?

    This photo:

    ANH-Holster-SC-1.jpg

    Seems to clearly show an extra line between the empty pouch and the second relay pouch (counting the relay pouches from the buckle towards the rear). It seems to go:

    Top of the belt.
    Groove.
    Strip of leather.

    In short, I can see both a strip and not a strip depending on which photo I look at.

    Which is annoying.
     
  30. zsherman

    zsherman Well-Known Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Funny that the original ANH belt has never gone on display. More so, please remember that a lot of the “original” stuff used for the traveling exhibition was, for the most part, recreated at the model shop for these reasons.


    Sent from my Starfleet-issue communicator
     
  31. Wailonskydog

    Wailonskydog Well-Known Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    This is why I'm thinking it's impossible to rely on the pictures for this detail. There's just no reliable way to tell and a simple trick of light or shadow could give a completely different look.

    I'm sticking by the idea that it must be individual pouches riveted/glued onto the belt for the primary reason that it would have been totally impractical to make it the other way.
     
  32. Egon

    Egon Well-Known Member

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    I’m honestly not sure what I believe regarding the method of the pouches (individual v strip) but this area is what pushes me towards one strip. It’s a really strange way to go about it for sure, but stranger things have happened with these props. 2A111DC6-290F-413C-9A3E-665ABBC3C34C.jpeg
     
  33. phillbarron

    phillbarron Jr Member

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    Yeah, Occam's Razor rarely applies.

    It could even be that the canister pouch is part of a longer strip which runs from under the buckle to under the first relay pouch. The two relay pouches are one piece, but might be separate to the canister strip. A separate strip which may or may not include the empty pouch as well.
     
  34. Davy Jones

    Davy Jones Well-Known Member

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    Each pouch is a separate piece of leather. I'm very certain about this. :)
    I'll try to prove it with reference. Let me find some stuff.
     
  35. Egon

    Egon Well-Known Member

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    Interested to see what you got! I don’t buy that there’s a strip of leather on top of the belt, but I’m questioning the method by which the pockets are made with one piece vs. several. Flying long strip on top just seems way way too complicated for this vs. a stitch grooved detail like the rest of the yoke and holster etc.
     
  36. Davy Jones

    Davy Jones Well-Known Member

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    Han ANH Pouches.jpg
    Here is a good shot showing the individual pieces of leather making the pouches.
    :)
     
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  37. phillbarron

    phillbarron Jr Member

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    I don't suppose that beautifully clear, square on shot is cropped from something which shows the prongs on the white relay greeblie?
     
  38. Davy Jones

    Davy Jones Well-Known Member

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    Yes it was, and does.
    I hope people will forgive me but I decided I'm not quite ready to talk about those yet.
    Crazylegsmurphy and I talked yesterday and covered lots of things and this is sort of info I'm willing to provide to him to help the project be as comprehensive as possible.
    But I'm not quite ready to post some things as there are potentially dramas that come with it. I'm new to the "Han" side of the hobby and still treading lightly.
    Patience and we'll see what I can do?
     
  39. phillbarron

    phillbarron Jr Member

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    Fair enough.
     
  40. Egon

    Egon Well-Known Member

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    Is this a crazy thought...or could the pouches be fed through slits in the belt and glued on the rear? :confused
     
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  41. phillbarron

    phillbarron Jr Member

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    Would explain how the canister pouch attaches, but I'm pretty sure you can see the leather of the relay pouch looping around behind the relay. Unless there's a slit/slits near the centre of the pouch?

    Not sure that would be useful though.
     
  42. zsherman

    zsherman Well-Known Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    That sounds more like it.


    Sent from my Starfleet-issue communicator
     
  43. Egon

    Egon Well-Known Member

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    I'm going to experiment on some scrap but I would I shine they're set in a bit to get around them. Just a thought but I want to try it out. I used some 3oz leather and even skived it down a bit and they still didn't get as crisp on the edges even wet molded. Though the Ann pouches look wafer thin
     
  44. Egon

    Egon Well-Known Member

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    This leather is still a bit thick but it looks like it might be possible 9426961E-B50D-4735-BCC2-6DEB0750395D.jpeg
     
  45. zsherman

    zsherman Well-Known Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Could explain the design change to the stitched pouches. I’m thinking they had issues with them and that is why they switched. I mean if they’re glued they could come off if they’re tugged on too much, yes? And since ANH rig hasn’t been on tour I’m guessing it’s too much work for the replicas at those shows and exhibits.


    Sent from my Starfleet-issue communicator
     
  46. Crazylegsmurphy

    Crazylegsmurphy Active Member

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    As Davy mentioned, we had a good chat about all things holsters and after seeing that detailed photo I am convinced that it is, as he and others have said, separate pouches.

    I have adjusted the pattern accordingly.

    Now that I see that detailed shot, I think that the canister was glued on like the rest. How I feel it was done was, if you look at the sepia version above, you can see near the bottom how it doesn't seem to curve around the canister. It seems to continue straight down from the sides, where I think it takes a 90 degree turn inwards and the flaps are glued in. There is likely a gap between the two flaps to allow the canister to sit flush with the belt.

    Great information and much appreciation to Davy for sharing. It still floors me to this day that all these years later there is still new information to be learned.
     
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  47. Uncharted Leather

    Uncharted Leather Well-Known Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    I made a quick version of the pouches to show how copper rivets could be used to hold the pouches in place. This would be a lot more secure than gluing them down and is very easy to do. Still a lot of work to do on the pouch patterns but I really believe this is how the original belt was done.


    20181015_183214.jpg 20181015_183118.jpg 20181015_182954.jpg
     
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  48. Crazylegsmurphy

    Crazylegsmurphy Active Member

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    Looks cool. However, unless there is evidence to show otherwise, I don't think it was riveted.

    The leather weight on the Episode 4 pouches is quite thin. Rivets would create a very small contact point that I don't think would hold with rivets. As you can see by your example, that would create a pretty small surface area and because the leather is so thin, I don' t feel it would have the rigidity to hold.

    Leather glue is quite strong. For example, many normal belts are made by glueing two sides together and people often wear out before belts do. The glue would also assure that the edges stayed down and weren't lifted away from the belt when the wearer put it on - we would likely see gaps as the belt was bent.

    Also, as I mentioned, I am fairly certain in the sepia drawings that the leather does not curve around the canister, but continues straight. Like so...

    CanisterTest.png

    It might curve in slightly under the canister, but not much.
     
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  49. Wailonskydog

    Wailonskydog Well-Known Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Are there any pictures that show the back of the belt in any way?

    While leather-grade contact cement like Barge can yield a very strong permanent bond, I don't think it would be sufficient in this case. There's very little surface area for the cement to bond with and a grain-to-grain connection is much less reliable compared to flesh-to-flesh (backside of the leather).

    Considering the tensions on those pouches I would guess that cement alone is not enough to keep them in place. It would be fairly simple (and common practice) to reinforce the glue bonds with a couple short rows of stitching. I think that would give the desired visual result and also make sure the pouches don't fall off.

    And Crazylegsmurphy, the way you have the canister pouch pictured would be perfect for just running a quick line of glue to hold it in place and then hand-stitch down each side to permanently secure.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 8, 2018
  50. phillbarron

    phillbarron Jr Member

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    Forgive my ignorance, but how do you sew inside such a tight space through such thick material? I get that you start from behind, but is there a special curved needle or something?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 8, 2018

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