Halliwax's weird V3 theory

Discussion in 'Star Wars Costumes and Props' started by halliwax, Oct 4, 2018.

  1. halliwax

    halliwax Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Here you can see it’s the seam line of kenobi’s tunic

    IMG_4199.jpg
     
  2. vadermania

    vadermania Well-Known Member

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    So both V2 and V3 were fully equipped with spinning emitters and motors? Makes sense to me from a production POV. If one breaks, they have a spare at hand, they can change it quickly and continue shooting.
     
  3. halliwax

    halliwax Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Look 1 post up, I don’t believe the v3 was ever finished with electric motor.. there isn’t a toggle switch hole in the booster to activate it

    Not saying there’s other ways to activate the motor.. but with a hole drilled into the pommel like the v2 for wires to run out, I imagine they would install a switch like the v2 as well

    The V2’s motor was held in with set screws under the clamp, the v3 during its stunt work shows no sign of screws or holes in the clamp area where it would hold a motor
     
  4. Joek3rr

    Joek3rr Sr Member

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    Okay false alarm!:D

    But it still has one of the "FX" blades. If didn't have a motor in it, why have one of those blades?
     
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  5. halliwax

    halliwax Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Easier to make blades... so they made a pile of blades and threw them on all the sabers. Even the non working ones

    Don’t forget blades were known to break.. maybe they used the v3 as practice since it didn’t spin, and brought the fragile v2 only when the camera rolled?

    I also wonder if that blade line is something to do with the camera flash? You would think the white would be glowing in this pic but it’s not?
     
  6. halliwax

    halliwax Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    And for now on joker I’m referring to these painted blades as FX blades, good call!
     
  7. roygilsing

    roygilsing Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Weren't these blades old tank antennas? Or is that a myth.
     
  8. Joek3rr

    Joek3rr Sr Member

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    Thanks!

    DYQmDBPWsAEXxBk.jpg
    Here's a pic of Vader's FX blade with a similar stripe.
     
  9. halliwax

    halliwax Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Steve from ranchoobiwan has a original saber I don’t know where it’s from... don’t think it’s screen used but it has a German tank antenna on it

    This could have be a mod after the movies were done

    I honestly roy for the life of me are stumped when it comes to blades

    I have been told ANH had wooden blades.. which you could easily make on a wood lathe and a cheap dowel..

    The wood blades were known to break, and if anyone else remembers seeing the clip of Guinness and prowse on set, all dressed up in the Death Star hall way and the blade snapping please say you have

    Because I’m going nuts over hunting for it

    The wood blades were scrapped in ESB and RoTJ

    Judging by the sounds in ESB and RoTJ it doesn’t sound like metal in metal to me but god only knows

    Listen to the behind the scenes Vader duel, then listen to the behind the scenes ep1 duel, 2 totally different sounds and the ep1 rods were aluminum

    Keep and eye out in my v2 builders kit thread for a related topic ;)
     
  10. SethS

    SethS Master Member

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    I'm telling guys... that's tape, not paint on the booster...
     
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  11. halliwax

    halliwax Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Could be brother
     
  12. TheUnchosenOne

    TheUnchosenOne Member

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    I actually think it makes a lot of sense that the booster would be taped. Assuming that's actually the V2, I'm becoming more and more convinced it's the V3 and was used for rehearsal. It looks unfinished and the paint job on the V2 looks darker than that. The weathering pattern we see on the V2 looks more like the paint was at least partially pulled off instead of chipped off. At least, to my eye it does
     
  13. halliwax

    halliwax Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    i am now 99.99% sure thats the v3 in the picture... but... i still am bumping my head trying to convince myself its tape...
     
  14. halliwax

    halliwax Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    dont be confusing this section for a bump... im sure its the line in guinness's tunic
    booster.jpg
     
  15. halliwax

    halliwax Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    green line shows the the ring section lined up with the clamp, the booster on the v3 is terribly wonky... i still see just a wonky booster

    booster.jpg
     
  16. halliwax

    halliwax Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    granted this is resin... BUT its the only angle i have of the booster... with all my other reference photos i dont have one of the booster on this exact angle.. cant agree with this photo 100% because is a resin cast, but this booster is pretty messed up
    resin booster.JPG
     
  17. ALLEY

    ALLEY Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    This is not just to make everyone’s eyes crossed...why can’t we assume they may have cast the V3 but painted the resin hilt to resemble the V2?? After all, the V2 was the belt hanger at the time.

    By the way, we have been officially given a deadline to finally settle all issues associated with the V2/V3...but we do have a little time:

    Milky Way heading for catastrophic collision - Durham University
     
  18. teecrooz

    teecrooz Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Here’s a clear photo in case you didn’t save the large version from the auction.
     

    Attached Files:

  19. halliwax

    halliwax Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Oh I got ya Chris! Yeah I chopped the large for the upload ;)
     
  20. halliwax

    halliwax Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Even though I won’t be around for this it still gives me anxiety... thanks a lot alley.. I hope your up tonight at 2am to sing my a lullaby
     
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  21. PoopaPapaPalps

    PoopaPapaPalps Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    From my working on my Shared Stunt project, the hilt isn't exactly cylindrical or straight. The wooden buck was lathed either off-center or from some janky piece of lumber (or both) and the face of the emitter doesn't line up center with the bottom of the pommel. It's off by ~2 degrees. It makes for very tricky lathing which I'm still trying to figure for the V3.

    Also, notice on the resin cast just how off the emitter is from the mid-parting of the windvane/neck up. Only happens if the emitter was a separate piece. For those questioning if the emitter was a separate piece on the V3, by RotJ and when this cast was taken, it certainly was.
     
  22. Joek3rr

    Joek3rr Sr Member

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    I can't help but notice that it has flecks of black paint on the "booster". Which make me think they were coping the V2. But then you see flecks of black paint on the pommel. Why would they do that? Though some of it looks like overspray.
     
  23. halliwax

    halliwax Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    SethS just asked my girlfriend about the booster on the v3...

    Didn’t tell her tape at all.. all I did was pointed at the booster and said what do you think this is

    And she said “looks like duct tape”
     
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  24. SethS

    SethS Master Member

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    Ha!
     
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  25. Joek3rr

    Joek3rr Sr Member

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    :lol::lol::lol:(y)

    Nothing like a fresh pair of eyes. I've done that a time or two myself. :D
     
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  26. ALLEY

    ALLEY Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    OK, let’s talk gaffer tape...

    I do believe that, originally, the boosters were painted with black paint but were subsequently covered in black tape for comfort. This fatty tape remained on at least one of the hilts until the filming of the “Sandstorm Sequence” in ROTJ, after which the tape was removed, (who knows when exactly) leaving black paint remnants on the booster(s).

    Here is the evidence I can offer...

    What is inferred to be the V3 sporting tape in its booster in both “Star Wars” and during “ESB” training:

    E0A6B6EA-B5BF-42AE-B2CF-8A32197904B3.jpeg

    FD7BCC48-D959-49AE-B124-352ACC24EE6D.jpeg

    Here are my simulations showing what I believe we are seeing:

    48C13E75-E037-4B58-AE97-9E66E1EB622D.jpeg

    4B002207-AF99-4556-B832-C900C473215B.jpeg

    In Jedi, the hilt seen in the “Sandstorm Sequence” could be either the V2 or the V3 (I cant make out clear evidence of a V2 lever or cone knob here; if it’s the V2 perhaps the cone knob was installed after the gaffer tape was removed and the switch hike was revealed.) but regardless of which hit it is, the ratty gaffer tape is still there:

    C6E61763-4DEB-4F92-8043-E06D87DAD59B.jpeg

    After the gaffer tape was removed, post “Sandstorm” filing, evidence of paint stripping, via tape being removed from a painted surface is clearly seen on the V2 booster:

    10645588-F2C2-4FEC-B5B8-74C4ABF3A2DC.jpeg

    An example of paint stripping via tape being removed from a painted surface looks very similar to the patterns seen on the V2 booster:

    59A51D2B-A69A-4818-BEF1-558BCFB32C00.jpeg

    The V3 booster probably looked similar to the V2 booster, in terms of black paint stripping patterns after the gaffer tape was removed, as well, but this evidence was removed in its post-filming refurbishment.
     

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    Last edited: Jan 5, 2019
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  27. halliwax

    halliwax Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    I really respect your time and explanation of the tape

    But I still don’t see it.. I see a wonky booster in all those photos, with black paint quickly sprayed on, even over the booster into the clamp section

    We can see gaffers tape in black and white photos on the graflex (which we know for a fact had) so much clearer in other pictures, and some of those pictures are further away..

    I just can see the same kind of texture here..

    Further more. I can’t see using tape on the booster for comfort? The booster is smooth already? I can’t see Guinness complaining about it.. if anything cover the entire thing because the clamp section is the worst part..

    I don’t think they came up with the idea of gaffer comfort tape until Hamill hurt himself...

    And then they even went as far as making rubber t track for even more comfort..

    I can’t agree it’s tape until we have better pictures.. I’m just very ignorant on this lol
     
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  28. ALLEY

    ALLEY Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    I, myself, have said that it looks like there may still be bare paint on the hilts that we see in the pics of the V2/V3 sabers seen in “Star Wars” (such as the photo, below, of the V2. This looks like bare semi-gloss black paint on the booster)...

    4A4E1715-6F7B-4F1E-B828-2882943A885E.jpeg
    ...by the time you get to Empire and Jedi, the evidence for gaffer tape having been applied during dueling practice becomes more evident.

    I find no other explanation for how the booster went from this (again, assuming this is the V2 in the storm sequence)...

    51011781-8D29-43ED-AA16-47C40DB108C7.jpeg

    ....to this during the weeks of filming on Jedi:

    9E2DEAD7-4E32-4942-AF3F-5673E48A06B0.jpeg

    C2D73878-A1C3-42BC-81BA-C51EA01E2A55.jpeg

    If the V2 was not used as a dueling saber in Jedi, and was only a belt hanger, how did it suffer such abuse that the booster paint went from nearly solid black to its current stripped/chipped appearance? The paint on the prop has not suffered significant paint loss in the 30 pls years since filming Jedi, so I don’t think it likely that it just “flaked off” somehow during filming.

    We are much more likely to know, for certain, how many licks it takes to get to the center of a Tootsie POP...

    :)
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2019
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  29. ALLEY

    ALLEY Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Interestingly, the V2 booster is still nearly solid black during the Ewok village scenes...

    34D3A868-4F88-40DA-AAFC-B4404D8E22E0.jpeg
    E3B176CA-8DA0-4EC6-9B8E-C171643431E8.jpeg
    399AFE19-3672-471D-91F4-8ADF4F8CA1A3.png
     
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  30. Dann

    Dann Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    I thought it was assumed that a good portion of the paint may have come off during the sandstorm filming.

    It certainly looks like paint to me, in the Alec Guinness pic, gaff tape is far more matte than what I see, not to mention it's got that texture to it. What I see is smooth.

    I'm not seeing any reason for tape on the booster section at all, but you never know!

    In that last grab you posted, Alley, in the Ewok village, it looks to me like there's a pretty good bit of bare aluminum showing.
     
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  31. SethS

    SethS Master Member

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    ALLEY-- I think I'm leaning in the same direction as you... hadn't noticed that Ewok image before!

    Dann-- it was just a theory that the sandstorm scene somehow wore off the paint, but that scene was shot on a stage. The sand would have been talc and silica. They would never blow actual coarse sand at actors or around cameras.

    Honestly, paint AND tape makes sense to me. If you put tape over spraypaint on metal and then take it off, you're going to get what the boosters look like now.

    halliwax Why would they put gaffer's tape on the stunt in the first place? Cause the pommel was falling off! In that pic where I think it's tape, the pommel is wonky. I think they were just quick-fixing it to stay in place.
     
  32. vadermania

    vadermania Well-Known Member

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    Here's my view what happened:
    ANH production wrapped, some of the hero lighsaber props were dismantled and the parts returned to the prop houses (i. e. the Obi hero sabers), the majority of the SPFX/stunt sabers went into storage somewhere at Elstree.

    ESB production begins: remaining hero Graflexes were redressed, or new hero Graflexes were produced by the prop department, same with the hero Vader sabers. Fight rehearsals started with Peter Diamond, Bob Anderson, Prowse and Hamill. "How nice, we have these old Obi stunt hilts here which you could use for rehearsals plus the Graflex and MPP stunts. And the old Obi stunts are not needed for ESB, so let's try to get rid of the clumsy control boxes (on the V3, I think the box on the V2 stayed on the hilt) and but some back tape on them for comfort and better grip." ESB production wrapped, the old Obi stunt sabers went into storage again.

    ROTJ production begins. Sandstorm scene at Elstree. "Hey wait, I lost this Graflex saber in the last movie." Prop guy remembers the old Obi stunt sabers in storage, grabs the V2, rips the tape off, removes the stunt blade (the motor inside was already removed during ESB to reduce weight) which produces an nice "used" paint pattern. Hamill likes it so much, he keeps it at his side as the new hero for the production. Here comes Yuma and the resin V3's imitating the paint pattern on the V2. And suddenly there is this new ROTJ Luke hero/stunt on set from Norank Engineering. They were either asked to produce a "nice and new" looking prop for Luke because at this point of the production it is clear that Luke builds his new saber in the cave (and Vader likes what his son constructed in the ISYHCANL scene) OR they were simply asked to deliver an unpainted new saber to the production, and the prop department cares for the paintjob. And now the fun begins - Hamill keeps his beloved V2 mascot at his side until the imperial officer takes it from him and hands it over to Vader on Endor. In the meantime, the control box on the hero was prepped for the cave scene, and guess what? Why not give the stunt V3 a similar paint/chrome tape job to better match it with the hero? Here we go.

    ROTJ production wrapped. V3 and hero returned to production, retire in the archives. Cleaned and partially repainted, they started their exhibition business. And the V2 somehow found it's way into Brandon's collection.
     
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  33. CT1138

    CT1138 Sr Member

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    Threads like these are why I love this place.
     
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  34. SethS

    SethS Master Member

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    Enhanced Ewok Saber. Very black booster, and cone knob.

    Keep in mind the Ewok Village was an internal set, so it was shot at Elstree. Not sure if it was before or after the throne room stuff, but it was certainly before anything shot in Yuma.
     

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  35. halliwax

    halliwax Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Watch the booster through out RoTJ.. some scenes the booster is fairly black like in the sand storm scene, others there is paint missing.. check out the throne room and bridge scene there is paint missing..

    I believe the paint has been removed because of handling and rubbing on the pants of Hamill

    I’m not saying the tape wouldn’t pull off the paint, I totally agree and totally can see it happening

    But there is no evidence to me that the v2 had gaffers tape on the booster at all

    Still don’t believe the v3 has gaffers tape in ANH.. but it certainly looks like at least the clamp had it in RoTJ..

    Don’t think the gaffers tape comfort mods were introduced until ESB.. and that was for graflexs only... once RoTJ rolled around and Hamill used the v3... it’s very likely the v3 clamp had tape added at some time
     
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  36. halliwax

    halliwax Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    I got the rinzler books coming this week so we can sit down and pin point exactly where and when these sabers are.. maybe it will shed some light
     
  37. ALLEY

    ALLEY Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    ALL Sandstorm, Ewok village, Endor Landing platform (footage with Prowse and Hamill together, with the V2, that is) and Death Star duel footage was shot in England. In this footage, the V2 is the primary belt hanger hero and the V3 is the dueling stunt...

    Then they travel to the US and bring the V2 and V3 with them...

    During that time the Yuma dueling hilt is created....

    The Yuma and Crescent city footage is then shot in the US. The Yuma replaces the V3 as the primary stunt with a rod while filming in Yuma. The V2 goes into private hands and the V3 goes into the archives...

    Main production wraps..the ISYHCANL insert shot is completed with a new, but simplified box, on the cleaned-up Yuma saber and a stand-in for David Prowse is employed. After that, yet another box is installed in the Yuma saber with a sliding clamp card and electronics and the cut saber construction footage is filmed. Then, the Yuma Hero is retired to the archives...
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2019
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  38. halliwax

    halliwax Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Alley you the man! When is speeder bike, and Ewok celebration filmed?
     
  39. SethS

    SethS Master Member

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    Exactly...

    Which is why I posted this three pages ago talking about prep.

    The booster in ROTJ is kind of like the screws on the graflex in ESB. It seems random that they are silver sometimes, but not others. But when you look at production order, not scene order, you see that the silver screws are in scenes shot in Norway.

    Here's my theory, probably full of holes:

    ANH

    Shared stunts are made from scratch. V3 is a bit undersized, likely not fully completed. Emitter rotates, but no motor. V2 gets motor and Graflex clamp with long lever.

    I think both are painted to relatively match the Obi-Wan hero. Maybe not at the same time or in the exact same way, but painted none the less. This includes black grenades and boosters.

    At some point the pommel of the V2 comes loose, so the black booster gets covered with gaffer's tape to help keep the pommel in place.

    ESB

    The V2 and V3 are used in rehearsals. The tape has been removed from the V2. Both are rigged to hold non-motorized blades, the engine is pulled from the V2. The V3 still has no clamp. At this point the both have banged up paint jobs. Rattle can paint on bare aluminum scratches so easily. I can see them looking the way they do just from banging around in a box or not properly stowed.

    At this stage they are basically identical. The worn paint is obviously unique, but the weathering style is similar. The V3 is a little smaller, and has the more visible seam line, the V2 has a darker booster and a clamp with the long lever.

    ROTJ

    In England the V2 is pressed into service looking much like it did in ESB BTS images. The booster is still mostly black, but whatever pattern damage to the paint that removing the gaffers tape gave it (mottled random glue splotches) basically sets the stage for how it will continue to be worn down as it is handled.

    The V3 is made into the stunt version, so it is given a graflex clamp and PCB card from ESB leftover parts.

    By the time they get to Yuma, the V2 has looks more like it does now with more paint having flaked off. The V3 is not needed because the Yuma has been made from scratch as part of the prep for shooting, likely based on a resin V3 copy. The V3 is not used for the rest of the production.

    For the pickup shots, the Yuma was repainted to look "new." The box was slightly altered after the INSYHCANL insert for the cave-build scene.

    POST ROTJ

    The V2 vanished. The V3 was repainted and given a new edge card to better resemble the hero.
     
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  40. halliwax

    halliwax Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Another thing is, have you played with gaffers tape?

    It is a VERY strong tape, try wrinkling and ripping it at the wrinkles.

    Throw it on a booster and throw the gaffers tape covered boost all over the place..

    It’s not gonna rip.. if we are saying there are rips in the gaffers tape in the picture below

    IMG_7513.jpg

    To rule this out.. the stunt graflexs still have gaffers tape covering the clamp today.. and it’s in just fine shape

    I’m sorry guys, I just can’t buy this

    But I still love you all!!
    IMG_7514.gif
     
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  41. ALLEY

    ALLEY Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    All Ewok village scenes—including the Threepio levitation scene and the celebration scene were shot in the studio in England.

    The Speeder bike scene was shot later, when the company travelled to the US in northern CA.
     
  42. SethS

    SethS Master Member

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    I've played with gaffer's tape a ton actually, on set its used for everything. Lot's of tape is used on sets. Gaffer is sort of a catch all term. It specifically is meant to stick hard, not reflect light, but also be easy to pull off because it's always used for a temporary reason.

    It's generally fibrous, but most every grip/PA working in the camera department is also going to have matte black paper tape for floor marks or other little things. A lot of time on set "gaffer's tape" is a catchall term for any tape.

    I will say the tape I am seeing on the booster in that one pic looks more like paper tape to me.

    I can't say it for certain, but tape pulled off of black paint would give the look the booster has. That plus that one pic has me feeling tape-y.

    Also, just curious if this has ever been discussed. But do we know where exactly the motor sat in these things? Would it generate heat? Could the tape have been to keep the saber from burning the user's hand?
     
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  43. vadermania

    vadermania Well-Known Member

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    I would think the motor sat in the booster part of the saber. The pommel/sink knob was affixed with grub screws for "easy maintenance". Perhaps it was a motor with a transmission attached to it on top, so the whole motor/transmission construct stuck in the booster and maybe in the clamp area as well.
     
  44. thd9791

    thd9791 Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Poopapapapalps Found a very good candidate for a motor, about the size of a D battery that could slide right into the clamp/booster area. No idea how that would attach to a steel rod, because I'm mechanically dumb :D
     
  45. Dann

    Dann Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    I also work in the industry, so I know real sand isn't gonna be hurled at actors at high speed like that.

    Still, a quick spray job of paint on bare aluminum (from when the stunts were painted to look like old Ben's hilt) could chip/flake off pretty easily, with all the handling that thing went through over the years, I'm a little surprised there's any paint left on it at all.

    I have several rolls of black gaff AND black paper tape right here, I've used both and many other kinds of tape a TON working on movies.

    If you're saying you see black paper tape in the pic with Alec Guinness, I have to say I disagree. It wouldn't reflect the light the way it is in that photo. It's used in many situations (as I'm sure you know, from working in the industry) specifically BECAUSE of its anti-reflective properties.
     
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  46. Dann

    Dann Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Most motors have a shaft of some kind, so I'd guess a collar with some set screws to join the two together. In ANH, were they steel, or wood dowels? Or squared wood sticks?
     
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  47. thd9791

    thd9791 Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    We use Gaffer tape a lot at the museum I work at. There is the cloth-y type stuff in white and black and I actually have the "smooth" matte version at home (a v2 add-on that I changed my mind on) To me, only that smooth dull stuff could reflect light that way. And that is THICK tape, I feel like that difference would show up.

    though I have to say, the tape idea is a good hypothesis on the V2's pattern, ....though isn't it like that all over the saber? Is there a thick laquer that is so strong it would wear away this way? If this is the case, I HAVE to laquer my V2 :D then I'd dust rose gold or antique brass over the windvane, leaving the black showing through, which to me matches that tone.

    Dan - Wood square tapered dowels but the V2's remaining rod is dense metal I think, maybe a tang for the blades
     
  48. halliwax

    halliwax Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Brandon said the motor sat in the clamp area. There is set screws under the clamp that pitch/held the motor in place
     
  49. halliwax

    halliwax Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    I got a surprise coming very soon...

    IMG_6199.jpg
     
  50. halliwax

    halliwax Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    If we are using the excuse that there is gaffers tape on the booster and that’s why the paint feel off?

    How do you explain the paint falling off the windvane and emitter?

    Like dann said. Cheap rush job of spray paint

    Another BIG plus is you can hear Hamill’s wedding band tapping the v3 while practicing.. I can see that removing paint fast as well

    These stunts were thrown in boxes, dropped on the ground, kicked around, thrown.. the v2 is even used in the pyrotechnic scene in the throne room.. they didn’t care

    The paint fell off these from wear and tear just like the grips on the graflex

    Now who wants to go get a beer?!?!
     

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