Halliwax's weird V3 theory

Discussion in 'Star Wars Costumes and Props' started by halliwax, Oct 4, 2018.

  1. PoopaPapaPalps

    PoopaPapaPalps Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    I've only ever seen the short blade.
     
  2. thd9791

    thd9791 Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Vadermania's saber is from ANH, from what I've read. He painted it that way (ROTJ) and cleaned it up a little.

    i distinctly remember seeing details of a graflex clamp with holes on the barge-climbing saber. and that has a nipple, and black paint on the emitter face, and a black upper neck. That's the only wrench in this theory that I can't figure out. R2 hollow lightsabers and this Barge climbing one were both ANH era sourced casts.

    (I had never really appreciated the urgency of getting the Yuma made, you're right, after the switch they probably didn't have the Throne Room saber in hand)
     
  3. SethS

    SethS Master Member

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    You sure about the R2 gag saber being from ANH? Cause it it's the same one as that high res image, it has an ESB style edge card and the graflex clamp with the holes-- that says V3/ROTJ production to me...
     
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  4. vadermania

    vadermania Well-Known Member

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    Happy New Year to all of you!

    If I remember correctly, the ROTJ Luke Yuma/ISYHCANL/cave scene saber(s) were machined saber(s) made for ROTJ production by Norman Harrison of the Norank Engineering workshop at Elstree, England. I'm still not sure how many they supplied to the production, perhaps 1-3 pieces in total.

    My metal blank is from ANH production, it was raw and unpainted when I got it. I did the conversion to the "V3 type" Luke ROTJ saber myself back in 1998 or 1999.

    I only have pics of the "Yuma" outfitted with a short black (carbon fiber?) blade. There was a longer (scotchlite-covered?) blade attached to it in the ISYHCANL scene.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2019
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  5. halliwax

    halliwax Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    IMG_7450.jpg

    E08BFB33-0185-420A-ABC5-C3BCC0AA43F2.jpeg
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2019
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  6. vadermania

    vadermania Well-Known Member

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    Here's a short list of lighsabers I have seen/handled during my visit at Skywalker Ranch in May 1995:

    Ranch main house, behind glass: Graflex "The Ranch Saber"
    Archives: Luke ROTJ V3 (no blade), Vader ROTJ bladed stunt MoM/DV6 (no blade, very heavy!), Luke ROTJ Hero (ISYHCANL). Plus a box with some Graflex handles made out of of cardboard tubes covered with thin aluminum foil. According to modelmaker Nelson Hall those were made for Hamill to be used hanging on his belt in long shots where he was running/exercising (Dagobah?), because he was complaining about the metal Graflexes hitting his family jewels...
     
  7. halliwax

    halliwax Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    What!! Never heard anything about cardboard graflex(s)!!

    You think it was like paper towel roll tubes?

    IMG_7452.jpg

    Interesting you say the dv6 was very heavy.

    Was the v3 heavy as well? Or did it feel hollow?
     
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  8. vadermania

    vadermania Well-Known Member

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    View attachment 971053

    Yes, that looks like it. There were buttons on it, cardboard bunny ears and black cardboard strips for the T-track grips. When I found that box sitting in a shelf in the archives, I originally thought those sabers were made by some kids in San Rafael as some sort of contest.

    That I do not really remember unfortunately. Only that the DV6 felt much heavier compared to the ROTJ Luke hilts. I vaguely remember asking Nelson Hall about the weight of the DV6, it had something to do with proper counterbalancing the blade for Bob Anderson or so. Jeez, that's 24 years ago, I wish I'd written down everything I've heard/learned during my visit.
     
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  9. thd9791

    thd9791 Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    you're right, I meant the barge climbing saber, as a casting without paint, matches the r2 one. Except for that nipple and the r2 one bring hollow. (See bts table)

    I'm editing a second time because this is a complicated theory. As per your quote, I think I mis-spoke when I said ANH-sourced. I meant they're casts of the ANH stunts, but during ESB or ROTJ time. Weird thing is that the barge climbing saber is painted like the V2. the R2 saber sppears to be painted like the V3 at the time.

    I've gathered that a solid piece of metal was bolted into that Vader lightsaber as an anchor for a blade
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2019
  10. TheUnchosenOne

    TheUnchosenOne Member

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    Having walked around with an empty metal hilt attached to my belt (not even running or anything), I can confirm that this happens a lot more often than you might expect. Empty hilts bounce WAY more than ones with electronics inside
     
  11. vadermania

    vadermania Well-Known Member

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    Here is a pic from my visit in the archives in 1995. I think it's a good side by side shot of the hero and the V3. BTW, has anyone here ever seen or handled another screen used metal ROTJ Luke "hero" saber?
    pB5HGuj.jpg
     
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  12. vadermania

    vadermania Well-Known Member

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    There are a few things which are confusing me when I look at the three Luke ROTJ screen used sabers (V2, V3 and "hero"). The shape of the "hero" is actually closer to the V2 (shape of the emitter, thinkness of the neck etc.) than to the V3. Is it written in stone that the Yuma "stunt" is the same metal saber that was used in the "ISYHCANL" scene? Could the Yuma "stunt" be a resin casting of the metal "hero"? And the metal "hero" was originally produced to replace the "beaten-up" V2 for the rest of the production?
     
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  13. halliwax

    halliwax Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Defiantly, the lower 3 rings in the ring section are identical


    Thank you so much for sharing that vintage picture!! It is wicked!!!
     
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  14. Anakin Starkiller

    Anakin Starkiller Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    I have a high res photo of the Yuma, which I can't share unfortunately, that shows it to defiantly be turned aluminum
     
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  15. vadermania

    vadermania Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for clarifying this. During my three visits at Elstree Props many years ago both Norman and Paul Harrison said that they produced the „hero“ ROTJ Luke saber that has been used on screen plus a special saber for the cave scene which was not seen on screen. If I would have been the prop master for ROTJ I would have ordered at least two to three metal hero versions for the production.
     
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  16. halliwax

    halliwax Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    I wonder what. And where this other cave saber is today?! Did they go into detail about it?

    Was this second cave saber a resin cast of the hero?
     
  17. vadermania

    vadermania Well-Known Member

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    I am referring to a special mechanical prop that opened up and presented the inner „workings“. They still had this saber in their collection, it was the subject of many discussions whether it was real or not.
     
  18. ALLEY

    ALLEY Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Does this refer to a saber hilt that did “MORE”—in terms of showing the saber’s “Inner guts”—than the one seen in the deleted scene (which is the standard post Yuma / post ISYHCANL Hero, as I understand it) with the clamp card that slid open to reveal primitive Earth-like electronics, circa 1982?
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2019
  19. halliwax

    halliwax Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Lol I’m so confused
     
  20. PoopaPapaPalps

    PoopaPapaPalps Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    vadermania You wouldn't happen to remember how many grub screws in the emitter were there on the V3, do you? I know I'm testing 20+ year memory but anything would help.
     
  21. SethS

    SethS Master Member

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    We've assumed the ISYHCANL and cave-build were the same saber with the box modified... you saying they are two separate sabers? That'd be cool!

    But we known the hero as it is today has the cave build box, in pics we can spot the 3 Yuma rings. But in the movie, the ISYHCANL also has the 3 ring detail, but a different box.
     
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  22. SethS

    SethS Master Member

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    Just a small rando observation about the V2...

    I don't think that's black paint on the booster. I think that's tape.
     

    Attached Files:

  23. thd9791

    thd9791 Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Thank you for sharing. Immensely. I actually just tested out Ace Hardware antique gold spray paint on a Yuma replica I have here. Most spray paints today have very weak brass and gold colors, and Ace (after a tip from Anakin Starkiller) seems to match your photo! let me see if I can pull up the image from this afternoon... here we go. ignore the other blaster builds
    1:2:18.jpg

    If the yuma and Cave scene saber are two different ones... I wouldn't be at all surprised. Do you remember what the black buttons were like? (did they cover a repair? or cleanly attached... thats where the Yuma fake lever would have been, whatever it looked like. This is my interpretation from the "zip line" gag scene where Luke gets wrapped up by Fett.)
     
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  24. D48thRonin

    D48thRonin Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    I believe vadermania is referring to the "Elstree Reveal" saber. I was under the impression that it was debunked as being fabricated after the fact (hence his comment about the "many discussions whether it was real or not")
     
  25. ALLEY

    ALLEY Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    That’s not all...that thing is either partially disassembled or loosely held together at the joint, or bent just beneath the clamp area....look at the crookedness of the main body in that area of the hilt.

    I don’t think the Clamp is on in that shot either.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2019
  26. SethS

    SethS Master Member

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    This is nuts. I've stared at this pic many many times.

    And now, all I see is a thick multi-layer roll of gaffer's tape holding the pommel to the body!
     
  27. Joek3rr

    Joek3rr Sr Member

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    So here's the question I have for everyone. The paint on the neck of Yuma seems to be coming off in areas. And the emitter tarnished. Was the prop guys trying to replicate the V3? Or did it just get worn that quickly?
     
  28. ALLEY

    ALLEY Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Hmmm...looking at it again, I see a swirly, brushed-on, paint pattern on the booster. But that thing is definitely warped/bent at the top of the booster, or partially disassembled and being held together by Alec’s hand.

    288BAD66-69BB-41BF-92D4-28C2C7060865.jpeg
     
  29. halliwax

    halliwax Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    The clamp is all over the place on the v2 during filming

    IMG_4220.jpg
     
  30. SethS

    SethS Master Member

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    What you call swirly paint strokes I see as a divot in layered tape!
     
  31. halliwax

    halliwax Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    No tape Seth!! No tape!! Eeerrrr


    ;)
     
  32. halliwax

    halliwax Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    In all seriousness guys, over my studying of the pictures... well before I go any further let me say

    I still don’t believe the v3 was ever used in ANH

    BUT this is the only picture that makes me feel differently.. and I think it’s my eyes playing tricks on me...

    IMG_4199.jpg

    The emitter on the v3 is faaaarrrr thinner then the v2. Especially on 1 side

    Granted we don’t know when the order of these pictures were taken... and we know Guinness was quoted saying he used this thumb to press up against the emitter to slow it down

    So this would explain why the emitter isn’t completely black like the other pictures..

    But if this picture is taken before he thumbed it.. or if the blade broke on the v2 and they used the v3 as practice while they switched blades on the functioning v2...

    (I distinctly remember a video of Guinness and prowse dueling in the hall way and Guinness snapping a blade.. anyone else remember seeing that clip?)

    This could be the v3 we are looking at... this would explain the really wonky booster and thin emitter.. if the emitter really is thin..

    I still see a loose clamp in the picture..

    We don’t see any graflex letters or lines in any of the other pictures, including this high res one

    (V2 below for reference )
    IMG_4359.jpg

    I still believe in my heart it’s the v2... unless the v2 broke a blade and they used the v3 as practice until they got the v2 back up and running for film to roll...

    And of course that d ring is in the location where the red switch would be on the opposite side out of our sight so we can’t rule that out either...
     
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  33. ALLEY

    ALLEY Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    He he...

    The first accurate “short bladed” Yuma stunt replica that was ever produced:

    61D2BDC7-9BF2-4E35-BF3E-AA7546015A45.jpeg
     
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  34. vadermania

    vadermania Well-Known Member

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    The V2 kept it's clamp with the long lever from ANH to ROTJ, correct? Perhaps the V3 never had a clamp attached during ANH and ESB and only got his clamp when he was called on set for ROTJ?

    I just read a passage in the new STW archives book from Paul Duncan that during the Vader/Obi duel they switched from a spinning blade to a static blade for Vader, because they were not able to hide the cables on Vader.

    Is it safe to say that the Yuma "hero" was cleaned up, repainted and outfitted with a special control box for the cave and ISYHCANL scene? Means there was only one ROTJ "hero" made, and the total count of Luke ROTJ is three (V2, V3 and hero)? (and yes, I was referring to the "Elstree reveal" when I spoke of that special ROTJ saber that was supposedly produced by Norank Engineering/Elstree Props for the lighsaber built/cave scene).

    Have a look at the following pic and check the part in the video:
    QSE0fMr.jpg
    Hamill ist clearly twisting the emitter during the interview. This could imply that the emitter was able to spin.

    Just some observations. And we're getting closer and closer. Great discussion!
     
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  35. vadermania

    vadermania Well-Known Member

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    PcMoTGN.jpg 3CFiiTV.jpg
    1. ANH 2.ESB training

    Do you see what I see?

    Could this be the same saber?
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2019
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  36. Joek3rr

    Joek3rr Sr Member

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  37. halliwax

    halliwax Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Where did the second photo come from? I don’t believe I’ve ever seen it
     
  38. vadermania

    vadermania Well-Known Member

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    I grabbed it from behind the scenes footage from ESB, Bob Anderson and Mark Hamill rehearsing.
     
  39. ALLEY

    ALLEY Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    I believe the following...

    Pic #1 with the more muddy colored windvane and black booster (and crooked appearance here) is the V2. As I have said previously, I believe the booster was covered in tape, for comfort at some time, and then ripped off after the sandstorm scene in Jedi (which still had a very black appearing booster at the time), leaving the chipped paint remnants we see on the V2 now.

    See my explanation and simulation of this issue with the V2 under this separate thread: ESB making of doc

    Pic#2 this stunt saber, with the seemingly paintless booster, and the with the more coppery colored neck is the V3.

    Also, I believe that the V3 was always a non-spinning dueling rod (like Vader’s ANH Saber) while the V2 was the spinning version of the Kenobi Saber.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2019
  40. vadermania

    vadermania Well-Known Member

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    dXX9rqk.jpg 2BzPBTY.jpg EJVCTeX.jpg

    I know it's not the best comparison, please excuse my limited photoshop skills. What I'm trying to illustrate here is that the top disc of the V2 emitter is smaller in diameter compared to the top disc of the V3.
     
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  41. halliwax

    halliwax Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    So your seeing what I’m seeing then?
     
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  42. vadermania

    vadermania Well-Known Member

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    Well, I think the ANH Obi stunt in my comparison above could be the V3. And I also think it‘s possible that the V3 is a non-spinning saber.
     
  43. halliwax

    halliwax Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    When we say non spinning...are we agreeing the emitter is separate from the rest of the saber and held on with set screws? Just no electric motor

    Or the emitter isn’t cut off the saber yet?
     
  44. vadermania

    vadermania Well-Known Member

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    That‘s a tough one. There is a grub screw in the windvane of the V3...could be an indication that the emitter is separate and is fixed on an axle running through the grenade. If one compares the neck groove on the V3 and my blank, I‘d say the emitter was at one point separated from the rest of the saber. And I‘ve read somewhere in this thread or another that the grub screw in the emitter and the grub screw in the windvane are not always in the same position to each other.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2019
  45. halliwax

    halliwax Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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  46. halliwax

    halliwax Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    No I mean at the time of ANH, can the emitter physically spin by hand on the set of ANH. I don’t believe there is a electric motor inside it

    But I believe it can physically spin by hand
     
  47. halliwax

    halliwax Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    IMG_4199.jpg

    Judging by the fact the emitter is more black, and the neck light brown.. it seems at the seam line it changes

    I imagine the painted the emitter separate then the rest of the saber
     
  48. Joek3rr

    Joek3rr Sr Member

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    It looks like the blade has the black strip running the length, this would mean it has to have a motor in it. Or they would have run the risk of the blade showing with black core.
     
  49. Joek3rr

    Joek3rr Sr Member

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  50. halliwax

    halliwax Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    I don’t believe that’s wires
     

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