Had a weird thought about the Terminator films.

[Too Much Garlic]

Maybe John felt that telling Kyle everything would change the course of events. Also remember, that John thinks his mother is crazy, and actually doesn't believe the story about the machines.

Well, I can certainly understand him not wanting to crush her spirit, sure. But still dumb.

Also... that was young John. He quickly learns the truth when he gets his pet terminator and actually learns responsibility and that it has consequences if he isn't careful. A character building moment, that's for sure. It just quickly falls apart when the movie doesn't take the bold step of making the attack on Cyberdyne the reason Skynet becomes self-aware, by having the chip still be in pre-production and not operational for a few years. Would have been a much more satisfactory ending to have what happened in T3 as the ending of T2, with the bombs falling, but that's just me. Would have made it all the more tragic... that Sarah's plan to blow up Cyberdyne is what started the nuclear war... completely reversing Reese's claim in T1 that it was the machines that started it. It creates the What-if scenario of: If Sarah hadn't devised that plan and succeeded, would Skynet have become self-aware and decided all humans were the enemy and therefore deciding our fate in a micro second: extermination.

But seeing as that's not the movie we have... I'm just discounting it and its sequels as just Alternate Universe kinda thing and not connected to T1.

 

[CB2001]

Also, screw killing Sarah's parents, just send another Terminator to get her in 1984 instead of giving her and her ******* kid 13 years to prepare. Idiot Machines need to upgrade their firmware.

Actually, it's not Skynet's fault really. To quote from the RoboCop vs. The Terminator comics, "Time travel is tricky business." By the way it's suggested, there's no real way to know for certain if the time machine has pin-point accuracy when it comes to sending someone or something back in time. In The Terminator: One Shot, it deals with a Teminator sent after a Sarah Connor who had recently moved to San Francisco from L.A., and the story is sent in the same timeframe as The Terminator. There was another Resistance Fighter that was sent back to protect her in case if she was THE Sarah Connor, but he was sent back a few years too early, despite being sent in after Reese was. Even in RoboCop vs. The Terminator, there's at least two noticeable times where the calculations were off that lead to the person/thing going through ending up in the wrong time (Flo tried to go back before the events of RoboCop to kill Alex Murphy and destroy his brain before he could be murdered and then turned into RoboCop, but somehow ended up after he became RoboCop. The other time was Skynet trying to send a machine back before RoboCop was developed so that the technology could be exploited to insure that Skynet ended up being developed. It went back early in time all right, with an unexpected end result). In fact, there's evidence in the films that show this happens, as the T-800 Terminator sent back by John in T2 well after the T-1000 was sent back ended up arriving shortly before the T-1000 arrived.

In fact, I have reason to suspect that the T-1000 (the advanced prototype) was the first one sent back in time and programmed to kill John Connor. But when Skynet noticed that it didn't succeed in its mission, it sent a T-800 further back in time as a backup, unaware that it failed too before Connor and the Resistance destroyed Skynet. Since John knew that Reese was his father and remembered the events in T2 (if you don't include T3 and TS), John purposefully sent Reese back in time and then remembered to send a reprogrammed T-800 back after the T-1000.

Basically, the T-1000 was first, then the T-800 was second, followed by Reese and the reprogrammed T-800.

"Time travel is tricky business." Even a machine like Skynet wouldn't be able to make sure it got it right.

For T1 it doesn't matter, as that is the only time: paraphrasing - "no one else comes through, it's just him and me". Pretty much negates all the sequels right there.

Well, for T1 and T2, it still works. You see, John may have told Reese they were going to destroy the complex after he was sent through, but it may have been before John discovered the T-1000 was sent through. After Reese went through, John discovers the T-1000 was sent through, thus leading him to reprogram a T-800 and sent it through as well. After they were sent through, the complex was destroyed (I'm not including T3 and TS in the mix).

 

[Too Much Garlic]

Well, for T1 and T2, it still works. You see, John may have told Reese they were going to destroy the complex after he was sent through, but it may have been before John discovered the T-1000 was sent through. After Reese went through, John discovers the T-1000 was sent through, thus leading him to reprogram a T-800 and sent it through as well. After they were sent through, the complex was destroyed (I'm not including T3 and TS in the mix).

Why would it come to him as a surprise in the future that the T-1000 was sent through? He experienced it when he was a kid. Not something you'd likely forget. Sure, he could have kept the information from Reese, but that just makes John Connor a cruel, manipulating person.

It only works if you turn John Connor into a *******, lying to Reese and withholding important information. Sure, he never did tell Reese that he was his son... but come on... you have a complete credibility problem if you spew out such seemingly nonsense. But not telling Reese that other machines has been sent, so he can warn Sarah to prepare for the year the other one arrives is just plain idiocy. Therefore... T1 blows a hole in T2 even from the beginning.

 

[DuneMuadDib]

Actually, it's not Skynet's fault really. To quote from the RoboCop vs. The Terminator comics,

Really, you're arguing this based on a non-canon comic book featuring two franchises that cannot co-exist based purely on their own timelines?

The films present no information that they couldn't just send T-1000 to 1984 to have another go at Sarah. The Resistance was able to send Reese back to same time as the T-800, so there's no reason to assume based on what exists in the films than the Machines couldn't send another Terminator to the same time.

 

[Lawrie]

The one plot hole that does bake my hide about T2 is this:

Reese tells Sarah that he came through time naked because nothing non-organic could pass through the portal. Yet, in T2, the T-1000 passes through the time portal with no ill effects whatsoever.

I can excuse the T-800 as his endoskeleton is covered in living flesh and clearly whatever scanner they use doesn't penetrate that deep, but the T-1000 is non-organic the whole way through.

2c, mine.

Cheers,
Lawrie.

 

[Death Grin]

It's been theorized that the T-1000 mimics living tissue.

 

[Too Much Garlic]

Cameron just said F it.

 

[Death Grin]

Cameron just said F it.

That also works, but then, why not have the T-1000 also bring a weapon?

 

[Too Much Garlic]

That also works, but then, why not have the T-1000 also bring a weapon?

Because... it IS a weapon.

 

[Contec]

That also works, but then, why not have the T-1000 also bring a weapon?

don't worry, they fixed that in T3.....

 

[Too Much Garlic]

don't worry, they fixed that in T3.....

And that was stupid as all hell.

 

[Kerr Avon]

She also had variable sized ****.

That was such a clever movie.

 

[Wes R]

Yup, only one reality in T1 and it never changes.

And the ultimate kick in the groin would indeed have been that Skynet became aware due to Sarah and John's actions in T2 - but that would require a substantial rewrite and actually grow balls on that story it severely lacked.

Oddly enough if we went with this you could view the original movie as Skynet not wanting Sarah dead but instead force her to take the actions of the 2nd movie in which her attack would lead to Skynet's attack on humanity instead of possibly just working to help humans if it hadn't been attacked by Sarah's group in the 2nd film. Actually that's a hell of a lot better than the T2 we got :lol. Oddly enough the T2 novels were really good.

 

[Too Much Garlic]

Oddly enough if we went with this you could view the original movie as Skynet not wanting Sarah dead but instead force her to take the actions of the 2nd movie in which her attack would lead to Skynet's attack on humanity instead of possibly just working to help humans if it hadn't been attacked by Sarah's group in the 2nd film. Actually that's a hell of a lot better than the T2 we got :lol. Oddly enough the T2 novels were really good.

Well... the info that Skynet wants Sarah dead comes from Reese and the fact that the terminator killed the other two Sarah Connors and came after her.

But no, I doubt it would be that calculated. Kill Sarah Connor - good - don't kill Sarah Connor and have her eventually attack Cyberdyne and force Skynet to become self-aware - good. It's a win-win situation for Skynet... but kinda goes a bit too far into the über convenient - though, it is a military super computer, so would work with multiple scenarios and plans of success.

It may not know WHO attacked Cyberdyne, but it will know that it was attacked by someone who should supposedly be a friendly... so, being attacked by your own is just as likely as being attacked by an enemy... why make a distinction.

And yes, if going with this... if Sarah hadn't attacked Cyberdyne, would Skynet have become self-aware as it did and decided on human extermination, or... would the outcome have been different? We'll never know, as time is locked and everything that will happen has already happened.

 

[Wes R]

I did like what Vivek posted about if you stopped one terrible person/thing another would replace it. I saw it on a special about time travel actually. If skynet had been stopped some tyrant may have risen up and caused the war so either way the world might be meant to have it. That was the only thing I liked about T3 was the fact that it showed no matter what they did the war was meant to happen.

 

[Too Much Garlic]

I did like what Vivek posted about if you stopped one terrible person/thing another would replace it. I saw it on a special about time travel actually. If skynet had been stopped some tyrant may have risen up and caused the war so either way the world might be meant to have it. That was the only thing I liked about T3 was the fact that it showed no matter what they did the war was meant to happen.

Sure, but they just used the whole movie to crap on that statement.

If they'd just started the movie with the bombs falling on August 29th 1997... then there'd been no issue. But waste a whole movie showing that things can be altered, changed, stopped... sorta pisses all over that statement they tried to make at the end. It's like gluing on a punchline from a drama onto a comedy. WTF.

 

[CB2001]

Why would it come to him as a surprise in the future that the T-1000 was sent through? He experienced it when he was a kid. Not something you'd likely forget. Sure, he could have kept the information from Reese, but that just makes John Connor a cruel, manipulating person.

It only works if you turn John Connor into a *******, lying to Reese and withholding important information. Sure, he never did tell Reese that he was his son... but come on... you have a complete credibility problem if you spew out such seemingly nonsense. But not telling Reese that other machines has been sent, so he can warn Sarah to prepare for the year the other one arrives is just plain idiocy. Therefore... T1 blows a hole in T2 even from the beginning.

Well, if he told Reese what he was going to do, then Reese probably would have refused to go back to protect Sarah and would have insisted on protecting both him and Sarah instead (remember when Reese and Sarah were talking, he said, "I'd die for John Connor", which indicated that he would have probably pushed to go back to the point in time in which both John and Sarah needed protection instead of just going back to protect Sarah). That would have lead to John not existing. So, to insure that Reese went back to protect Sarah and to maintain the timeline the way it was, he probably had to keep the information about the T-1000 event quiet.

Really, you're arguing this based on a non-canon comic book featuring two franchises that cannot co-exist based purely on their own timelines?

The films present no information that they couldn't just send T-1000 to 1984 to have another go at Sarah. The Resistance was able to send Reese back to same time as the T-800, so there's no reason to assume based on what exists in the films than the Machines couldn't send another Terminator to the same time.

Yes, I quoted a non-canon comic series. And if you bothered to read the rest of the post instead of skimming, you would have seen that I did used an example from the films itself (with the T-800 arriving shortly before the T-1000 did when the T-1000 was the first one through before John and the Resistance took the complex).

The one plot hole that does bake my hide about T2 is this:

Reese tells Sarah that he came through time naked because nothing non-organic could pass through the portal. Yet, in T2, the T-1000 passes through the time portal with no ill effects whatsoever.

I can excuse the T-800 as his endoskeleton is covered in living flesh and clearly whatever scanner they use doesn't penetrate that deep, but the T-1000 is non-organic the whole way through.

Did you consider the possibility that the T-1000 may have been covered with a thin layer of living tissue when it was sent through? I mean, if you look at the Terminator sent back in Part 1, it was covered in flesh in almost the same thickness as the human body (which is enough skin and muscle to cover the endoskeleton). Since the T-1000 wouldn't require muscle in order to maintain its disguise, all it would need is a layer of skin (which is still living tissue) to be able to make it through.

Not to mention Death Grid's comment...

It's been theorized that the T-1000 mimics living tissue.

... which is also possible.

 

[Too Much Garlic]

Well, if he told Reese what he was going to do, then Reese probably would have refused to go back to protect Sarah and would have insisted on protecting both him and Sarah instead (remember when Reese and Sarah were talking, he said, "I'd die for John Connor", which indicated that he would have probably pushed to go back to the point in time in which both John and Sarah needed protection instead of just going back to protect Sarah). That would have lead to John not existing. So, to insure that Reese went back to protect Sarah and to maintain the timeline the way it was, he probably had to keep the information about the T-1000 event quiet.

Which just makes the sequel stupid as it makes John Connor of the future a manipulating, lying *******. No thanks.

 

[CB2001]

Which just makes the sequel stupid as it makes John Connor of the future a manipulating, lying *******. No thanks.

Um... How is it any different from Marty McFly manipulating his parents to hook up later after he botched their initial meet up? How is it any different from Richard going back in time and manipulating Elise McKenna to fall in love with him knowing that they were to meet and fall in love? How is that any different from Rufus going back in time to help Bill and Ted ace their history exam knowing that they would? How is it any different from Austin Powers going back in time to save Felicity Shagwell and the Earth by having two of them existing in the same timeframe, knowing that Felicity was going to die if he didn't have two of himself there? How is that any different from Special Agent Doug Carlin from going back in time to stop the Ferry bombing by using his knowledge (not just once, but apparently two times before) to stop the bombing and save Claire Kuchever, knowing that both were going to happen if he wasn't there?

Just because John has knowledge of what was to come doesn't make him a manipulating, lying *******. It makes him responsible for trying to protect his existence so that he could save what's left of humanity. Though I maintain the belief that if John had just allowed the Terminator to complete it's task, it would have wiped out both John and Skynet completely from the timeline and would have stopped the events from occurring all together, many people believe that Skynet would have continued to exist even with John gone and that humanity would have died off without John Connor to lead them. There was an alternate ending for Terminator 2 that also suggested this was possible, having John grow up to be a senator and Sarah growing into an old woman. No Skynet, no time displacement equipment, no Kyle Reese going back in time to meet Sarah, yet John Connor continuing to exist without a Skynet ever coming to be.

 

[SmilingOtter]

As soon as the first T-800 time traveled, that should have been it: Sarah would have been killed, and the human resistance would have fallen apart for the lack of her son. If Kyle stepped into the time machine 10 minutes after the terminator did, he could have waited an hour, a week, or a month in order to find more folks to go back with him, gather more intel on the area, you name it.

That makes me think time travel opened up different dimensions. The first T-800 couldn't alter the "prime" timeline, but could fix things for the new timeline's Skynet. That would allow Kyle "prime" to follow it back. Each trip led to another reality, so as each sequel happened, each new John Connor would remember more terminators in his past.

Edited for rethought opinions.