Forbidden Planet Officers' Dress Cap

[Larry Mager]

Greetings to all,I am looking for a pattern for the Officers' Dress cap as seen in the short sleeve uniform shots in the movie. Years ago ( 30 to be exact) collector/producer Bill Malone told me it was made like a beret with a bill/brim. I've tried it that way and it just doesn't look correct. A friend of mine suggested that I find a WW2 AAF 50 mission crush cap and use it for building the Officers' Dress Cap. I'm open to suggestions as I've not ever seen any of these caps on auction or for sale. Thank You all in advance for Your help. Larry

 

[Trotsky]

They look like the old WWII RAF crushers, which where completely fabric. Here's a company that makes excellent hats:

http://wwiiflightwear.com/headwear/crusher-caps/

I own an original and a repro from these guys.

Anyway, the idea that they were berets with a bill attached it not to far fetched. Military berets back in the '40s and '50s were larger in diameter than modern ones and definitely had more "flop" to them.

 

[Larry Mager]

Thank You Trotsky for the link.. I must have missed the cloth visor ones on the website as all I saw were the leather ones. I'm wondering if they were made out of a WW 2 beret ( because they look larger in diameter over a Crusher cap of some sort. What do You think? I know from my notes of my interview all those years ago with Bill Malone, that the caps of both types were made of the same fabric as the Class A uniforms. I eagerly look forward to Your answer, Good Sir,.
BTW, a word of warning, my new Friend: What ever You do, DO NOT under ANY Circumstance, GO to MEXICO!!!!!!!!!!! One of my College Majors was Russian Communist History.

Cheers,

Larry

 

[Timber wolf]

I think your best option is to buy a 'captain's hat' & then cover it in a fabric of your choice, there are plenty on the bay..


If you really want to make one from scratch, you might find this interesting.....http://angalmond.blogspot.fr/2008/06/how-to-make-officer-peaked-cap.html?m=1

 

[Trotsky]

http://www.alliedflightgear.com/RAF caps.html

Try this link. The cloth covered bill was used exclusively with the RAF.

I suspect Timber wolf is one to something. I cannot imagine it would be that difficult to manufacture these caps. The correct cloth and find a cheap body for it. Most US hats, especially Navy peaked caps, had removable tops. You could easily buy a cap body, replace the cover and cover the bill in cloth as well. Something like this:



There are plenty of inexpensive older frames on eBay. Make the bill from scratch wouldn't be that difficult either, use a piece of leather or even cardboard and cover it with cloth.

And yep, don't want to go to Mexico, who knows what I might pick up?

 

[Larry Mager]

Hi Timberwolf, Hi Trotsky, Both of You: Thank You both for Your ideas. I will actually do both; buy an officer's cap and modify it and make one using the site You passed on the link to me about. It was amazing! This is going to be an exciting event for me in May when I can get to it. Thanks Timberwolf for Your screen cap. That's one I hadn't seen before.

Trotsky, You never know who might "Pick" on You in Mexico.....especially if such a person might be working for a guy with the name of "Stalin":lol I'll keep You all up to date as things happen. When they do, it will be insane!

Cheers,

Larry

 

[BAK55]

OB10 and I have been looking into this as well. He found a cap pattern from Vogue Patterns, No. V6044, version E. It would still need a bit of modification to get the true crusher look to it, though.
https://voguepatterns.mccall.com/v9044?page_id=181

 

[Larry Mager]

Hi Folks, Thanks for the suggestion. I hadn't considered that before! It really won't take much to modify it for what I need. The biggest problem I have is what to use as the under bill ( beneath the fabric). I'm thinking plastic laminated card board or cardstock. Any suggestions folks? Thanks in advance for Your help.

Cheers,

 

[BAK55]

Since I do have a copy of the pattern, buckram is what has been called for the structure of the cap bill.

 

[Larry Mager]

Thanks BAK55!!!!!! I also found another thread on, of all things, a Steam Punk Forum. Sadly, a page of that one thread is missing. I'm waiting back for an answer on it.
Once I hear back, I'll share it here. I would rather use Buckram than Card. FWIW, The Ball Cap FP cap had not only Cardboard in the brim, but a layer on top + bottom of the cardboard of Buckram. I got to take a VERY close look at the late Jerry Neeley's Cap. He had a mainly complete outfit. He was missing the Belt Boxes on the uniforms.
If any reader would like, I can pass on info from my notes I took off of the uniform and from talking several times with the Supreme FP Collector, Bill Malone.
Cheers, to all,

 

[Krel]

The Officers cap is clearly a modification of a WWII crush cap. The MGM costuming department was well used to making military uniforms for movies, and the costumes were designed to be familiar to a post WWII audience. It looks to me that the big, and maybe only difference is that the United Planets cap has a cloth visor, rather than a leather one.

David.

 

[Larry Mager]

Hi David! Thanks for Your input! I agree entirely with You. I especially like Your comment that the uni designs were designed to be familiar to Post WW2 audiences. Again, I agree with You. The other thing that needs to be noticed is that the crown of the cap IS a bit larger in diameter than most are used to seeing, especially in todays' reproductions of the Crusher Caps. My late uncle who served in the AAC/AAF noticed that the last time He saw the movie. I found his comment in some more of my notes that My Mom sent me. (She was cleaning out Her house after Dad died and found them). Walter Plunkett, imho, was a genius when it came to translating notes He was given. The uniforms were referred to as "space Fatigues" (or something similar as I recall), in the notes Mr. Plunkett was given..

Cheers to all,

 

[BAK55]

I really don't think the crown is necessarily larger. There is a feature missing from this cap that an actual crusher cap has that may give that impression, however.

Most military caps of this type have a "ribbon" around the cap between the cap bill and the crown. These can vary in height, making the cap higher or lower off of the brow.

View attachment FP_Crusher.pdf

The FP cap has no ribbon that I can see. The crown seems to begin at the bill of the cap.

 

[Larry Mager]

Thanks for the pictures, Bak. As Bill Malone who owned one told me is that the caps had the "ribbon" but that the exterior part was make like a beret and fitted over the inner parts.
That becomes clear when We see the caps upside down on the table during the "Captain's Mast" where the three crewmen get extra duty and confined to the ship as a result of the "Id Monster" coming in the ship. Going over my notes from talking with Bill, He said that He thought that the exterior of the cap had been made just a tad larger. There had been a 3/8th " wide metal band that could be put in the inner part of the crown of the cap. This is seen in the hat during the movie "Queen of Outer Space" They aren't used in FP, though. I just saw the DVD last night, and You appear to be correct!!!! With that metal band in it, the cap doesn't look so large through the crown. BTW,Bak, What the military uses today in place of the wire band is a circular plastic ventilated tube which goes in the crown.
I need to close for tonight, Bak, my Friend, so Thanks again as I appreciate Your input.
Peace be with You.
Larry

 

[BAK55]

Hey, I also thank you. You've cleared some things up for me that I hadn't been entirely sure of.:thumbsup

 

[Larry Mager]

No Problem, Bak. Glad to be of help. If You have any other questions, feel free let me know and I'll try to answer them. If Robert Day is still with us on this board ( I P.M.ed him some tome ago and have received no answer), He can also help.....IF He is still with us.

Cheers,
Larry A.

 

[Larry Mager]

Hey Bakk,I knew there was something else I wanted to let You know: Robert Day's F.P. Body Suit style "Jacket" while an original, had the area on both sides of the hips cut away sometime after the original movie. They were originally cut straight across the bottom according to the originals that I have seen...except for one other besides Bob Day's which was also cut away at the hips. The "Jacket" line at the bottom was hidden by the fact that the pants were loose fitting from just above the hips. I hope this helps some. As far as the F.P. Communicator, check out this website: http://discuss.fleetworkshop.org as it is for a F.P. Communicator build and it is the ONLY one I have ever seen. I hope this helps You out and, again, if You need any other info, please let me know. Cheers, Larry

 

[Krel]

I came on some photos from "Queen of Outer Space", and in the beginning of the movie, the Officers Caps had the wire stiffeners in them

David.

 

[Larry Mager]

Yep, they did, David. That wire makes all the difference in appearance of the hat, doesn't it? I have yet to find out if the hats were designed to have the wire in them from the beginning or if they were added later. IMHO, the wires were there from the start, but either the Producers or Director decided to not use them. If You remember, One only sees J. J. Adams +
Doc Ostrow wearing them. I tend to think, David, that since Doc and J. J. were supposed to not only be Senior Officers, but the oldest of the crew, the Director might have felt that they would be wearing their hats in the "50 Mission Crush Cap" style to show their seniority. Now that is a W.A.G. (Wild A--ed Guess) but one based on discussions with Army Air Corps relatives as I grew up. It would have also given some audience identifications with the Doc and Cdr, especially among the WW2 Vets in the audience. After all, it was only a little over 8 years since WW2 was over. It wasn't until some years later that the wires went back into the caps to stay. I hope this might explain things a little better. I appreciate Your input, David.

Cheers,
larry