Costume Contest Rules Discussion Thread - FINAL SUGGESTIONS IN POST 65

[Michael Bergeron]

Re: Costume Contest Rules Discussion Thread

... Wow. If this is really the line of thinking going into why contests like these are being run - that getting new people to register is more important than your existing member base - I'm really glad I didn't bother entering this one.

No member is more important than another. Period. The vast majority of this site would consider you to be "new". Even some of the ideas bantered about here would have made you unable to participate or have to enter into a "new members" category. New members can be just as valuable as old members.

I'm sure all of the new "members" that were registered help RobLowe and the other people who were robbed sleep more soundly at night.

Nobody, I repeat NOBODY was robbed. That is a completely unfair statement.

 

[Michael Bergeron]

Re: Costume Contest Rules Discussion Thread

Since this contest is not really a contest at all but a recruitment drive veiled as a contest, next year I will enter again with one purpose.

I will make the absolute worst costume you have ever seen, and I will bust my ass to get votes and I will win. This costume will be so bad that it will be an embarrassment to the RPF, but maybe it will get the point across about worthless registrants and the validity of the contest.

If anyone has any ideas, pm them to me.

I think that is incredibly cynical. None of our winners had "bad" costumes and in fact, in the men's category (where most of the accusations have been thrown) the top two prizes were a full Hulk and Transformer, each which obviously took months to build and required a lot of dedication and skill.

This was first and foremost a contest and I came here looking for honest input as to how it could be improved. Is there a recruitment/advertising goal in there as well? Hell yes, I've mentioned it many times. But that doesn't change that this is a contest.

I will be suggesting a judged prize in each category as well as a bunch of other changes but if you want to flip the chessboard and cry instead of making this better then feel free. That doesn't have a place in this conversation though.

 

[Michael Bergeron]

Re: Costume Contest Rules Discussion Thread

Agreed! or "Fall Recruitment Drive" All three Halloween Costume Contests, that is all they have been, recruitment drives. And all our discussions and suggestions are moot, if it that is to remain it's sole purpose.

Not once have I stated that recruitment is our sole purpose. This is first and foremost a contest and marrying those two goals is the purpose of this conversation. This is, and will always be the "Halloween Costume Contest".

Minimum vote count would not change a thing, would not limit recruited votes as they would, as you point out, just post ever how many posts were required and then vote.

I disagree. If I tell all my friends to vote for me most will only go so far before saying forget it. First group will go to the site, see you need to join, and drop it there. Second group will register, see you need a minimum of 20 posts, and drop it there (keep in mind that the mods DO delete a fair amount of ":thumbsup" posts that are clearly just trying to boost their count). The final group will actually go, look around the site, make their 20 posts and then vote. At that point they have come for more than voting, they have looked through what we have to offer.

And you stated rather emphatically that closing registration during the voting would in no way be considered , and is practically heresy, so if any limiting of voting were to be established it would have to be via the time element, must have been a member for X amount of days.......

I don't know if this can be done but perhaps for voting it can be considered.

I think that was a joke about having a separate IronMan category

Probably, but I know that there have been suggestions to the site that there be a separate forum for Iron Man so I had to answer.

In the Dollar Store contests and other prop contests, where it was possible to remain anonymous, and you weren't allowed to say which entrant was yours or post it anywhere else on the Interwebz, so that right there eliminated any begged for votes.

I just don't see what is so hard about having restrictions and enforcing them. This is a pretty sophisticated platform the RPF runs on, surely it isn't completely devoid of a little customizing!?

Certainly, I just don't know what those limits are. As I said, I'll be proposing things and we'll see what the say based on what they're able to do.

So far as regulating advertising on other sites it's VERY difficult to enforce. You may get caught by another member here but what if you advertise, the contest ends, you get your prize, and then are discovered long after the fact? Banning I suppose. But people would leave just as jilted thinking that someone found a way to advertise without others knowing.

Except for "no desire to do such", I see no reason there could not be a Halloween Costume Contest with separate categories for New and Veteran........Or as has been touch on separate categories for something like long term in depth builds VS quickly done up for Halloween

If we eliminated the current categories it could be done. Again though, should men and women be competing in the same categories?

I'm just the opposite, I think more people feel shafted than you think. I do not for myself. as I know my costuming skills can't hold a candle to the kinds of skills others here have, the kind of costumes others here make. I feel shafted for them and all the great talent that didn't get much of a chance to shine circumstances being what they were.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one based on all the feedback I've received. I haven't done a count of entries but I've received about 40 PMs that were positive (with one or two suggestions of course). As I've said before, I'm here to make it better for those who feel otherwise and there have been plenty of valid points here.

I didn't mean present "your multiply children" in the kids section as a group, or put groups in the male / female sections. I meant to be saying--a group of especially ONLY two children could be two individual entries in the Kids category, and groups of adults could go each as an individual into which ever category, male or female.....The group category had the least entrants. If it was something requested and granted from last year, it didn't get much participation of actual groups of people, it was mostly people entering their two kids as a group--which like the over indulged photoshopping, I don't believe was in the spirit of the intent of groups!?

I'll definitely be reviewing the groups but keep in mind that when I suggested submitting children as two separate entries in the kids category there were people very upset that I was implying that their kids had to compete against eachother. You just can't win.

Think I already said something about this.....^there someplace.....would have to be a "length of time" thing, like the 45 days or whatever it is for the JY........requiring a post count would just get us a bunch of lame posts cluttering up things.

Perhaps. I'll look into it but am unsure as to what the response will be from Admin.

Don't know how many or percentage of retuning contestants from last year's contest, even the 2010 contest.....Do know that several of the very well known established female costumers on the RPF were not entrants this year.

I know at least one excused herself because of being VERY pregnant but overall I'm not too concerned with last year's experience as I had no part in it. My goal is to look forward.

I think it is just a recruitment drive, I don't think that fact is veiled--it's been stated over and over throughout the contest thread and in this one that that is what 'tis.........and if that is going to remain it's sole purpose, I do think it should undergo a name change.

It bears repeating:

Not once have I stated that recruitment is our sole purpose. This is first and foremost a contest and marrying those two goals is the purpose of this conversation. This is, and will always be the "Halloween Costume Contest".

 

[Blobfish]

Re: Costume Contest Rules Discussion Thread

This was actually a requirement (not specifically, but in general). Your first post in the build thread had to have a summary of your build.

I'm looking for input on build thread requirements to make them better.

Oops, sorry if I wasn't clear - I meant having stats in the description of the photo rather than in the build thread for lazy people like myself


On a general note, I'm surprised there's so much controversy surrounding how this was run. It's difficult to make something approachable and fun for new members while also being fun and fair for the established members, and all in all it wasn't done badly.
A post limit (even something like 5 posts) before being allowed to vote might ensure only people interested in costuming are asked to join/vote - more people will just click a button for a friend, whereas fewer will actually spend time on something so far outside their interests. Obviously a post limit before you can enter is perhaps more important.
Anyways, I hope this all gets sorted out to everyone's liking - I've yet to come across a completely fair costume contest, so I think it's one of those things you have to take with a pinch of salt.

 

[Art Andrews]

Re: Costume Contest Rules Discussion Thread

First, I want to give a HUGE thanks to O_B for running the Halloween Costume Contest this year. While we did have some issues, this was the best yet, due to his hard work and diligence.

Since he has answered and covered so many of the issues that have been brought up, I am not going to rehash them all, but do want to touch on a few points.

1) No matter what we do, what rules we put in place, or how we handle these contests, someone, somewhere is going to think it is unfair or was handled poorly. This is usually due to sour grapes or simply to a sour attitude in general. This happens in any competitive event, whether it is political, sports related, a local school election, or just picking people to play red rover... someone isn't going to think it is fair.

2) A number of you keep using the word "recruitment" in terms of these contests which is a bit silly. As with many of the things we do, yes, the Halloween Costume Contest is a way in which we can promote the site (we have never been coy about that), but it isn't a recruitment drive. Our belief is that you, the members make such cool props and costumes, that when people come by and see them, some will be compelled to stay or try their own hand at making something. One might argue a contests effectiveness to do this, but considering the increases in traffic to the site during Oct (almost double any other month), we aren't going to ignore this opportunity.

3) In regard to the many small suggestions regarding not showing votes and other technical things, we will definitely be looking into these suggestions for next year. This is the first time we have used our Gallery for the Halloween Costume Contest and it really cut down on the amount of work we had to do! However, there are some technical limitations to it that we need to investigate for next year's contest. Shylaah had a number of very good ideas. We just need to see if we can implement those ideas or not from a technical standpoint.

Now to a couple of specific points:

it is a big loss for the rpf as well....as others pointed out....99% of new members that register to vote dont come back.....while the 1% stay.....is the 1% really worth all of this trouble? is the 1% worth putting a sour taste in members mouths when amazing costumes lose to mediocre costumes.....it kills morale of several members....some been very vocal in the contest thread and other threads....and some remain silent...the rpf is hurting itself...

Disagree. It is not a loss, nor is it hurting the site. If some members don't want to participate because of how things are set up, that is certainly their choice. If we attempted to pander to the individual wishes of each member nothing would ever be accomplished.

maybe a way to eliminate some of this tension is to create a new category.....eliminate a third place winner....and create a judges category....first two winners will be based on votes from current and new members...third winner will be based on a judges panel...a panel of unbias members excluding moderators, forum leaders, and contest mod....members like alan costillo, pharchivist, and hydin...this way its a win win situation for both sides...the rpf gets their traffic and member participation and the current members get a somewhat more fair contest....if the judges panel chose the same winner as the voters...maybe it can be an added bonus prize...

Of everything that has been posted in this thread, I actually like this idea. As long as you realize that no matter who is chosen to be a judge, someone is STILL going to think it is unfair or preferential bias is being shown. That won't change no matter what is done, but I do like this.

Since this contest is not really a contest at all but a recruitment drive veiled as a contest, next year I will enter again with one purpose.

I will make the absolute worst costume you have ever seen, and I will bust my ass to get votes and I will win. This costume will be so bad that it will be an embarrassment to the RPF, but maybe it will get the point across about worthless registrants and the validity of the contest.

Oh no! You have discovered the secret way to change our minds; try to shame or embarrass us into bending to your will!

That has worked so well for... oh wait... no he got banned.

Well, it did work for... no he got banned too.

Hmmm... Tell you what.. you go for that shaming us into changing approach and let me know how it works out for you. :thumbsup

 

[Guri]

Re: Costume Contest Rules Discussion Thread

As I understand it the way it is this contest is good for:

1) The site owners because the member count of the site grows making RPF more attractive to advertisers
2) Those who have a lot of friends in other places willing to come vote for them so it's a relatively easy win based on popularity for them
3) Those who just want their work to be seen and do not care about winning
4) Those who learn about the RPF from the contest and decide they want to join when they see the other entrants (besides just their friends)

It is a disappointment for:

1) Those who are interested in seeing the best of the best costumes win
2) Those who are entering their work to be judged on merit for the potential of winning without having to beg for votes

Because the rules let you enter any costume you made throughout the years, pretty much any active member has something to throw up there, but we're all starting to realize, it's just a show case.

I don't think if things keep going this direction that you're going to get much participation from those with merit who really want to win. We have a showcase forum, why bother with a popularity contest too?

I'm with those suggesting we keep things as are but ALSO have judges give out a prizes based on merit.

Create categories and criteria that costume builders can aim for and they know judges will be voting on merit, for instance:

A point system where several judges give 1 in 10 or an N/A on such criteria as:

'Authentic Materials' - made out of what the movie version was.
'Accurate' - looks like the costume in color, shape and texture.
'Creative/Original Costume' - unique character or costume, unusual take on it etc.
'Creative/Original Materials' - unique method, found objects etc.
'Scratch Build' - how much was made by hand vs. bought

If you did that, I bet you'll get more and more people every year trying to build a costume for the contest and better entrants.

 

[TVsRobLowe]

Re: Costume Contest Rules Discussion Thread

Oh no! You have discovered the secret way to change our minds; try to shame or embarrass us into bending to your will!

That has worked so well for... oh wait... no he got banned.

Well, it did work for... no he got banned too.

Hmmm... Tell you what.. you go for that shaming us into changing approach and let me know how it works out for you. :thumbsup

I've already started my "Mac & Me" costume.

 

[TJackFx]

Re: Costume Contest Rules Discussion Thread

but considering the increases in traffic to the site during Oct (almost double any other month)

As I'm not familiar with how website traffic is monitored, is this referring to "new" traffic from people who have not been to the RPF before (which I know is part of the goal of having these events), or just all traffic in general?

I know that for myself, I spent a lot more time on the site in October simply because I wanted to look over so many build threads that didn't happen to be here prior to about Oct 22 or so.

I disagree. If I tell all my friends to vote for me most will only go so far before saying forget it. First group will go to the site, see you need to join, and drop it there. Second group will register, see you need a minimum of 20 posts, and drop it there (keep in mind that the mods DO delete a fair amount of ":thumbsup" posts that are clearly just trying to boost their count). The final group will actually go, look around the site, make their 20 posts and then vote. At that point they have come for more than voting, they have looked through what we have to offer.

This is very true. I know that last year when I did attempt to get friends/family to vote, 99% of them said that they weren't going to because they didn't want to register (for various reasons such as the fear of getting unsolicited emails, taking time to actually register, etc).

Not to mention, I don't use FB, Twitter, or other social media, so outside of my email contact list, my resources (and time) are pretty limited. Which is why I really like the idea of having a judged prize.

Create categories and criteria that costume builders can aim for and they know judges will be voting on merit, for instance:

A point system where several judges give 1 in 10 or an N/A on such criteria as:

'Authentic Materials' - made out of what the movie version was.
'Accurate' - looks like the costume in color, shape and texture.
'Creative/Original Costume' - unique character or costume, unusual take on it etc.
'Creative/Original Materials' - unique method, found objects etc.
'Scratch Build' - how much was made by hand vs. bought

This type of idea is still one of my favorites, but if someone recieved an N/A (for example because their costume is based on a cartoon or videogame and you can't get authentic materials), then it's impossible for them to potentially get the maximum points allowed.

I can't remember if I posted this before or mentioned it to OB, but since it's highly likely that future contests are still going to request that participants look to obtain votes from outside the RPF, why can't the "new" votes be only worth one point and have votes cast by "veteran" members (up to the mods to determine what is a veteran - based on having a registered account 30, 60, 365, etc days prior to the contest) be worth 3 points, or something like that? Then if you are loo

I doubt the site has any way to track my suggestion, but I'm willing to toss my name in the ring as a volunteer to cross reference accounts and tally votes. And if voting does become anonymous during the contest, put the names up afterwards to allow people to do their own count if they feel it was rigged.

Or, instead of having a 1st, 2nd and 3rd place, why not a "new member vote" winner, a "veteran vote" winner and "judge's choice vote" winner? If by chance that someone gets the most votes in more than one category, then as OB suggested earlier, one prize/person - second place picks up the prize. If you keep all the prizes the same value, then each "winner" should not be viewed as any less spectacular than another.

At least in my opinion, this will allow those who have the time and social network to do their thing and gather votes and still allow the members here who have no intention on looking outside the RPF the same chance to win prizes.

 

[Art Andrews]

Re: Costume Contest Rules Discussion Thread

As I understand it the way it is this contest is good for:

1) The site owners because the member count of the site grows making RPF more attractive to advertisers

Not really. For us, the contests are good because they raise awareness of the site. Our member count is already at a level high enough to make us attractive to the advertisers we want on the site. Keep in mind that one of my most strongly held beliefs in regard to this community is that if more people just KNEW about what we do, they would want to be here and it is only because they don't know that such things exist or are possible that we don't have more people participating as a part of this community. What we do, as a community, is infinitely cool. We reach into a movie screen and pull clothes, costumes, props and models from celluloid into the real world. How freakin' awesome is that and who hasn't wished at some point in their life to own SOMETHING from a movie or TV show? What we do has MASS appeal, but a limited reach. Most of our efforts center around extending that reach and that is what a contest like this is good for to us as a site.

2) Those who have a lot of friends in other places willing to come vote for them so it's a relatively easy win based on popularity for them

There is no argument that those who are willing to work it, via their social connections can gain an advantage (which, in turn, benefits us, as mentioned above).

It is a disappointment for:

1) Those who are interested in seeing the best of the best costumes win

Because "best" is ALWAYS going to be subjective, there is always going to be some level of disappointment here. What is interesting to note is that those who are complaining the most, don't participate in our contests and even if we implemented every suggestion they made, would STILL not enter.

2) Those who are entering their work to be judged on merit for the potential of winning without having to beg for votes

Perhaps, but I would argue that there are very few contests on the internet that aren't handled this way.

I'm with those suggesting we keep things as are but ALSO have judges give out a prizes based on merit.

Create categories and criteria that costume builders can aim for and they know judges will be voting on merit, for instance:

A point system where several judges give 1 in 10 or an N/A on such criteria as:

'Authentic Materials' - made out of what the movie version was.
'Accurate' - looks like the costume in color, shape and texture.
'Creative/Original Costume' - unique character or costume, unusual take on it etc.
'Creative/Original Materials' - unique method, found objects etc.
'Scratch Build' - how much was made by hand vs. bought

If you did that, I bet you'll get more and more people every year trying to build a costume for the contest and better entrants.

We are definitely going to give this consideration. It will be a lot of work for the judges and ultimately someone will complain of bias, but I do like the idea of including a "judges pick."

 

[Art Andrews]

Re: Costume Contest Rules Discussion Thread

As I'm not familiar with how website traffic is monitored, is this referring to "new" traffic from people who have not been to the RPF before (which I know is part of the goal of having these events), or just all traffic in general?

I know that for myself, I spent a lot more time on the site in October simply because I wanted to look over so many build threads that didn't happen to be here prior to about Oct 22 or so.

In terms of traffic we generally focus on "unique visitors" not "visits" and we also focus on new visitors vs returning visitors. In Oct, our new visitors as well as our unique visitors are close to double their usual numbers.

I can't remember if I posted this before or mentioned it to OB, but since it's highly likely that future contests are still going to request that participants look to obtain votes from outside the RPF, why can't the "new" votes be only worth one point and have votes cast by "veteran" members (up to the mods to determine what is a veteran - based on having a registered account 30, 60, 365, etc days prior to the contest) be worth 3 points, or something like that?

That is actually a good idea. The problem is that our current software does't provide for a solution like that.

 

[NormanF]

I agree we need a judges technical prize in each category. Because people are basing their votes on their own personal criteria: coolness, character they love, and so on.

Also, it won't help me now but what about a category for people who have never made a costume before?

Sent from my Etch-A-Sketch

 

[Art Andrews]

Re: Costume Contest Rules Discussion Thread

Also, it won't help me now but what about a category for people who have never made a costume before?

The issue with that idea is the lack of ability to enforce it.

 

[DAVIDYR1]

Re: Costume Contest Rules Discussion Thread

Here's what I posted in the costume contest thread...probably more fitting to be posted here though. :thumbsup

***********************************************
Awesome!!! Well done to everyone that participated...way to keep the spirit alive folks, and of course....a huge congrats to the winners!

Loved checking out the build threads and that aspect 'for me' is what influenced my decision on who to vote for, when I fully admit that it was very very very hard to pick just one. So many awesome entries, so many out of the box and unusual techniques used...in short it was a lot of fun for us to be a part of it and the winners should be very proud of their work.

Here's a few thoughts on the contest, judging...and so forth:

While contests like this are a lot of fun, heck...I too just wanted to be a part of it this time, let's not forget that members worked very hard on their submissions...and very hard to promote themselves around the web.

In doing so yes, the RPF does risk a certain amount of registrations only for the voting of the contest and nothing more...but at the same time think of how many new members it brought in that will participate and become regulars here. ...yet another goal of having an open contest like this.
Maybe...restrict voting to a minimum number of active posts first before being allowed to vote? Regardless of how long they've been members...just a thought.

Judges vote....hmmm, sure...it's cool...but I personally dig the current judging by the members here. Yes, there will be favoritism....and yes votes will be more popular 'somewhere' for a bazillion other reasons but, I still see nothing wrong with members wanting to support a friend who worked on their costume entry, be it the best of the group or not. No matter what, everyone - myself included - are going to vote based on criteria that we ourselves feel comfortable with...and being judged or voted on by your peers still does remain a pretty darn cool thing.

So...there's my 0.02 cents....:lol

Orange_Blend did a great job of keeping us in the loop and answering our questions.
BTW...Mike....you must not have a day job to have been so 'readily available' for the last month or so whenever we've called out to you around here! cool
Thanks for your time bud. :thumbsup

David
***************************************************

So in the end, I think the contest was a win for us all, and Orange_Blend did a fantastic job handling the contest. :thumbsup

Not only, but as someone who worked 3 weeks straight on his costume and has documented proof as a 'once upon a time':lol professional in the industry....I'm perfectly fine with my total 7 votes....and thankful to all who voted for me!:cool
Sometimes it's not all about the talent, or the time one put into their work.... there's subject matter...character choices, colors used...how the costume looks on you and I could go on and on. Talent is certainly important, but overall execution and what the finished PICTURE looks like can sometimes mean the difference between who gets more votes....regardless of who's costume is technically 'better'...and watching it all transpire was a lot and I mean a lot of fun!

My first costume contest in around 5 years and man was I proud to be in it....that right there was my win.


David

 

[Michael Bergeron]

Re: Costume Contest Rules Discussion Thread

Thanks for all that Dave.

I do have a day job though, just never slept! thumbsup

 

[Shylaah]

Re: Costume Contest Rules Discussion Thread

Some wee questions.......

When will we know the rules for next year's contest?
Will it be in advance of the contest? Or not until the contest is opened for 2013?

Shylaah

 

[crabra comander]

Re: Costume Contest Rules Discussion Thread

Thanks for the rep Shylaah...

Yes please keep the vote invisible I hate checking my votes everyday and seeing a big goose egg... :lol

 

[Michael Bergeron]

Re: Costume Contest Rules Discussion Thread

Some wee questions.......

When will we know the rules for next year's contest?
Will it be in advance of the contest? Or not until the contest is opened for 2013?

Shylaah

Sometime this week I'll post here what my recommendations will be for next year's costume contest. I don't think we'll know for sure what the capabilities are until much later though. It will be my goal to have all of that knowledge before the contest launches next October. Ideally I'd like to use it for a few contests before then as well. Makes a good testing ground.

 

[Shylaah]

Re: Costume Contest Rules Discussion Thread

Thank you, Mr. Blend. You're a diamond!!

Yeah, some test runs might be a good idea......

Shylaah

 

[Michael Bergeron]

Re: Costume Contest Rules Discussion Thread

Thank you, Mr. Blend. You're a diamond!!

Yeah, some test runs might be a good idea......

Shylaah

The hope is to have contests be a more regular phenomenon here so there will be a bunch of smaller ones that we can refine the rules on a bit before taking a swing at this mammoth again.

 

[jolive]

Re: Costume Contest Rules Discussion Thread

Orange blend... You did a great job as mod, in fact your still doing a great job!
I do want to voice my concerns though. Now be warned i could only bare to read about 70% of the posts do to them all being novels so here goes...
The photo shop needs to go, totally takes away from the costumes, some of the members are obviously graphic designers some barely have paint on there pc.

The whole begging for votes is ridiculous, it has been said before its this a popularity contest or costume contest? I was in the group division with four of my friends i didn't ask them to vote because they're not interested in this stuff i simply talked them into dressing up, but imagine if i would've told them to get everyone they know to vote that could've been a thousand people or more!...
I guarantee that they would've had i asked but i don't want people that don't know anything about costuming judging me, i could've gone anywhere for that!

As far as bringing people to this site, let them enter the contest but don't let them vote until they can sell in the junkyard.that way you know there gonna contribute. I'm pretty sure all the people that were gained from this contest actually entered as contestants. Not voters.

The votes should be hidden again we don't need to know how much better so and so is doing.

Aside from all the complaining i would like to offer this fun idea! If there could be a judged contest but have all the judges randomly selected out of all the members that are eligible to sell in the junkyard... I think this could really boost Morale and get more people involved.imagine how you would feel to be asked to judge this contest?

Ps i think the cardboard robot will win next year if begging is allowed and i will not be participating!