Casting off production made pieces , cool or not?

[GINO]

Why is an actual diamond worth so much more than a comparably sized cubic zirconia?
Only with my pieces (and other's as well), with a little bit of education and comparison, you can actually see the differences.

 

[WebChief]

Okay, and here's my view... your pieces aren't diamonds... not unless you're selling the real props. If they're pulls you're making, then they're just over priced cubic zirconias.

 

[GINO]

No, it's just that you just don't know the difference between diamonds and cz.
You can't place value in something you don't know exists.

 

[WebChief]

HAHAHAHA... Yes, I know... my simple mind just cannot comprehend the wonders that you know.

Cut the B.S.

I've held real props. I've been to Steve Sansweet's place and held a real scout Helmet. I've been to THE Ranch. I have MANY friends who own original props from various films. THOSE are the true diamonds. Unless the prop you're offering was actually made by the prop crew for those films than it's nothing more to me than a copy.

 

[GINO]

HAHAHAHA... Yes, I know... my simple mind just cannot comprehend the wonders that you know.

That's not how I meant it. I was not insulting your overall intelligence.
I was referring you not being as knowledgeable about a particular prop which is why you don't find value in the differences (because you aren't aware of them).

I've held real props. I've been to Steve Sansweet's place and held a real scout Helmet. I've been to THE Ranch. I have MANY friends who own original props from various films.

So what. That doesn't mean anything. I know more about Steve's scout helmet and Vader display than he does. That's not an insult towards him, but he does not obsess over these kinds of things like I or others do.

THOSE are the true diamonds.

I couldn't think of something higher than a diamond. But yes, if the screen used props are the diamonds, then any replica when compared to them are gravel.

Unless the prop you're offering was actually made by the prop crew for those films than it's nothing more to me than a copy.

Some copies close enough that you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between them and the real deal.

.

 

[WebChief]

My point simply was that "yes" I can understand the difference and the value in actual props. Not to gloat. Many here have had those same opportunities as I and in fact, have had many more.

As for not being able to tell the difference. You're probably correct. However, the true value is not in the quality of the piece (we all know that the originals were sloppy, bumpy messes) but in simply knowing that they were in fact the REAL screen used pieces.

Sorry to aid in derailing this thread from its intended purpose but it annoys me to no end to see what is passed off as scripture by some people and to others its simply a differing point of view.

 

[GINO]

As for not being able to tell the difference. You're probably correct. However, the true value is not in the quality of the piece (we all know that the originals were sloppy, bumpy messes) but in simply knowing that they were in fact the REAL screen used pieces.

I suppose we all place value differently.
For me, it is appreciation of the pedigree/lineage of the replica piece and being able to almost not be able to tell the difference between it and the screen prop. The appreciation of the history, and artistry (regardless if lots of times really crappy) of the prop.
It gives me a sense of what it would have been like to have been there on set. It's as close to owning the real props as most people can get without actually owning it. And for SW props, most of those significant items are gone or far out of reach.

Sorry to aid in derailing this thread from its intended purpose but it annoys me to no end to see what is passed off as scripture by some people and to others its simply a differing point of view.

Not really a derailing. Just related discussion. But if we (we meaning collectors) don't express out points of view and point out exactly how they are hurting our sect of the hobby, how would other people like you (who seem to be in another sect) ever know?


.

 

[stormtrooperguy]

What I was getting at is that it is absolutely ludicrous to think that someone would invest $30,000 in and original prop and be in a position to offer replicas at cost (again, unless you were independently wealthy as I stated before).

I think this might end up being the key to my view vs. yours.

The only reason I would buy a screen used prop it was if it was something I was so in love with that it was worth $30K to me. So, while I love stormtroopers, I don't care enough to spend that kind of money on a trooper helmet.

The only thing I can think of would be a screen used RotJ Fett helmet. I could see myself trying very hard to convince my wife not to divorce me over that.

Once I had it, there's no amount of money that could make up for it if I were to damage it while molding. I could make $500,000 selling copies, but if the original was lost, there would have been no point in getting it in the first place... all the money in the world couldn't replace the one I destroyed.

I wouldn't be buying as an investment to recoup, I'd be buying out of love for the prop.

But, say I was 100% sure that I could cast it with no damage. Even being screen used, it would still only cost a couple hundred bucks to make a mold of it.

Once it was safely molded, and the original was back in its alarmed, climate controlled case, what difference would it make if it was recast from there? I still have the original, and then more people in the world have copies. That doesn't diminish its value to me in any way.

I have no issue with people selling $1000 helmets. If someone wants to sell it and someone else wants to buy it, that's great. That's too much like a business to me, and that's not what I'm here for.

I'm strictly into this hobby for the fun / art / sharing side, so my views are heavily slanted in that direction.

If people are concerned about making back the money they spent, that's totally fair. But, to me, that's less about right and wrong and more about making sure they get paid back, which brings me back to my first comment about recasting only hurting money and ego.

 

[GINO]

Hey I just wanted to take a moment to point something out.
If some of my comments have come across as costumers are the devil, then I want to sincerely apologize.

In the past, I went through a phase of almost believing that.
It was easier to just lump everyone into one big group and hate on them.

But I've come to realize that it is foolish to do so, as I have some respected friends who are 'costumers'. Granted, they have a respect for the artistry side of prop collecting otherwise we would have no common interests.

So what I'm saying is, I no longer lump costumers into one group, or all of them as recaster supporters. I take it on an individual basis.

That being said, I still think that we should recognize that the majority of costumers tend to be sympathetic to recasting. At least in my experiences with them.
A lot of them aren't even on the prop boards and have no concept of 'bad recasting'.


.

 

[stormtrooperguy]

I definitely agree that a lot of costumers don't know / care about this sort of thing. I do what I can to educate as I go, and so far have had good luck with it. I've prevented many a local ignorance-recasting. What I have seen is that many of them care more as they learn more... they just need to be steered toward the light a bit.

I think there could be some sort of graph with accuracy on one axis and price on the other. Every collector (be it screen used, replica, costume, whatever...) would fall at a different point on the grid.

GINO would fall more on the high price, high accuracy scale.

I'd fall sort of in the middle... 80% - 90% accuracy or so.

Others might fall in the "close enough", 40% accuracy realm.

For each person, that collectible is the best thing out there, and they love it.

I've talked to people who think the MR Fett bucket is fantastic. Put it next to one of the amazing fan painted ones and they don't even see a difference. This is why things like the Museum Replicas costumes work out fine. There are plenty of people that see "green fabric", not a pantone matched shade of cotton twill.

Then there's the GINO Fett helmet which is shaping up to be the most accurate one I've ever seen. To me, it's a level of accuracy that doesn't matter, but to you, that's what is interesting / exciting.

And in the middle you have thousands of little dots on the graph, each with different interests / needs.

So all these different people come into the hobby looking for something different. Finding a way to co-exist is, to me, key to a thriving community. There have to be some common grounds that we can all work on.

The recasting debate is usually at the core of everything, because each world has its own norms. Outside of this hobby I don't know that recasting has any real meaning.

To some, they don't know that you can buy some goop to slop on your helmet and make more.

To others, they see cast from original stormtrooper helmets being offered and innocently think "oh, i could cast this thing myself", not knowing that it's frowned upon by the community at large.

Others do it knowingly, because they just don't care.

Trying to get back from one of the many tangents here... I think that's why I have a hard time with a definitive black or white. I don't think there are many things that are really, truly black or white. I mean, come on... Grey AT-AT helmets and 2 tone Vader helmets should prove that

But seriously, I think it's when the conversations avoided heating up and stay calm and purposeful, better understanding is achieved all the way around. Any time you get thousands of people in the same virtual room you will have differing opinions.

I'm always happy to hear other peoples' opinions, but I get VERY defensive when someone tries to tell me that mine is wrong or makes assumptions about what I know / don't know.

I'm not even sure where I'm going at this point, other than that I've enjoyed this discussion. Now, I have a shiny new proto-form heating kit to put together!

 

[oujala]

Gentleman, I'm new to this hobby outside of the goofy things I made as a kid. But one thing that applies across the board when dealing with anything, not just props, is "more accuracy = more money". And I have to decide how accurate my wallet and I are interested in.

As far as costumers wanting the top level for $10 vs $1000, I don't get it. You are officially deciding to cross the line from costuming to collecting at that point because you are seeking out the accuracy. Now where did I place that math equation again? Oh yes "more accuracy = more money".

It matters not what you wanna pay...

 

[Too Much Garlic]

To be honest this has been one of the more interesting threads about this subject that I have participated in... simply because the issue has been presented and debated in a manner I have not experienced before. Maybe the players have changed, maybe I have changed... but something has definitely changed. Can't quite put my finger on it.

 

[Tan Djarka]

Honestly, I haven't read this entire thread, but to answer your question... Taking a cast of screen used items is okay within this community. But keep in mind, it's also a community that makes the curious distinction between stealing and stealing. As long as you're stealing from the right person, it's A-OK!

In the real world, owning a prop, even one you've aquired through legitimate means, does not give you a right to cast or reproduce it. Not for profit. Not even as a charitable act for the community at large.

 

[stormtrooperguy]

To be honest this has been one of the more interesting threads about this subject that I have participated in... simply because the issue has been presented and debated in a manner I have not experienced before. Maybe the players have changed, maybe I have changed... but something has definitely changed. Can't quite put my finger on it.

I think it's because we all shared our thoughts without taking (too many) potshots at one and other. It was a good conversation, and I know I felt like I learned a bit.

At the end of the day, I think that we're all more similar than we are different. To the world at large, obsessing over props from a 30+ year old movie is pretty dumb, whether they are original, 1st gen casts or fan replicas.

Keeping that in mind might help diffuse some of the tension that flares up sometimes.

 

[jarvis]

Just curious, but is there a way to keep track of the originators of screen used cast pieces? I know, for example, when someone recast some of TMP's ironman parts, they were pointed out because people are familiar with TMP's work(because he made them), and then people knew to boycott that seller. But in the case of a Vader helmet, or storm trooper armor that has screen lineage, how do you tell who it belonged to originally? Is there a list somewhere?

 

[Too Much Garlic]

With a lot of study you'll figure it out. There is no list, because it's a hot potato and a lot of work for anyone to want to risk the firestorm that'd arise when it is shown.

Best way to figure things out is to ask, either publicly or privately to people you think might know. At least, they'd probably be able to direct you to someone who knows.

 

[GINO]

Just curious, but is there a way to keep track of the originators of screen used cast pieces? I know, for example, when someone recast some of TMP's ironman parts, they were pointed out because people are familiar with TMP's work(because he made them), and then people knew to boycott that seller. But in the case of a Vader helmet, or storm trooper armor that has screen lineage, how do you tell who it belonged to originally? Is there a list somewhere?

I'll be taking a step to rectify at least the trooper helmet/armor line of things shortly.


.

 

[BDK]

I'll be taking a step to rectify at least the trooper helmet/armor line of things shortly.


.

GINO, the problem with that is you own a set of the molds. I'm not saying folks wouldn't take it seriously but a true taking of the lineage of the screen used pieces needs to be done by a totally unbiased 3rd party removed from the forming or even the buying otherwise it just opens it up the chance of abuse. Don't take that personal, just pointing out what will most likely happen if a lineage chart comes out from you or TE or anyone else associated with that suit.

 

[GINO]

Unfortunately, I'm one of the few people who even know about the history to even have it be told at all. At least in the area where my molds are concerned.

 

[Too Much Garlic]

Actually... I will wait until he produces that list before commenting. There is no such thing as unbias in something like this... and those who are... usually don't know the history anyway. Those who actually owns and did form these suits originally are likely those who know the most about what happened and what created what... and GINO is one of them.