Casting off production made pieces , cool or not?

[stormtrooperguy]

It is also just as wrong of that fan to make the Farscape pistol... so... your point being?

My point being that the conversation was slipping from the right and wrong of recasting to the financial investment involved in screen used props.

I was trying to say that if recasting is universally black and white, it's no different whether it's a $10 fan made piece or a $30,000 original. The right and wrong of it is the same.

But this whole thing has gone way off track... we're supposed to be talking about whether it is considered OK to cast a screen used prop, not debate the ethics of recasting.

So, for steering things down this road again, I apologize. I also should know better than to get people started on this conversation. We all say the same things, over and over, and nothing ever changes.

We've made our points, we should let it lie.

 

[stormtrooperguy]

I've noticed that costumers tend to have the most difficulty with the concept of honor amongst thieves. I'm sure that would be an interesting topic to explore sometime.

I'm fascinated by it.

I just want to state that I have no problem with you or anyone else personally. I enjoy these discussions when they can stay civil. I like trying to see where different people are coming from.

I think that for costumers perfection isn't as big a deal, since we get hit / bumped / scratched and dented every time we take our stuff out of the house.

So 80% is ok... it's just going to get trashed and repainted anyway.

But yeah, this is probably a good discussion to have some time. For now I'm cool with just disagreeing and keeping it mature and polite1

 

[GINO]

I was trying to say that if recasting is universally black and white, it's no different whether it's a $10 fan made piece or a $30,000 original. The right and wrong of it is the same.

You are right a $30 scratch built prop should get the same recast protection as a cast from original $30,000 replica.
What I was getting at is that it is absolutely ludicrous to think that someone would invest $30,000 in and original prop and be in a position to offer replicas at cost (again, unless you were independently wealthy as I stated before).

But this whole thing has gone way off track... we're supposed to be talking about whether it is considered OK to cast a screen used prop, not debate the ethics of recasting.

They are one in the same.

 

[GINO]

I just want to state that I have no problem with you or anyone else personally. I enjoy these discussions when they can stay civil. I like trying to see where different people are coming from.

If you ever would like to privately discuss the anti/pro recasting privately, I would be game. It it a subject that I find very difficult to express though post on a forum.

.

 

[Gilmortar]

You are right a $30 scratch built prop should get the same recast protection as a cast from original $30,000 replica.
What I was getting at is that it is absolutely ludicrous to think that someone would invest $30,000 in and original prop and be in a position to offer replicas at cost (again, unless you were independently wealthy as I stated before).




They are one in the same.

And see, this is where I stand....with Brian.

I used to be the RECASTING NO MATTER WHAT IS BAD.

But then being accused a couple of times of Recasting when I didn't even know WHAT I would do to recast something (albeit i was 16 at the time) I started to see the witch hunts that were involved with it.

I understand, alot of artists here have spent alot of time creating the replicas that they made and the effort and passion that went into them.

But it intially boils down to if you are making pieces and selling them for profit, you really shouldn't be complaining about being recast by someone.

Nor the same with production pieces. Now by my opinion, and ONLY MY opinion...My definition of production pieces would be "Anything that was made by a person or company that is no longer in production or business and is scarcely available for public availabilty"

IE MR pieces, DP Helmets, Etc.

But then production pieces also constitute FILM PRODUCTION PIECES. IE Screen used pieces, production made pieces (Ex. A stormtrooper helmet made by the people at LFL but not used in the actual filming).

Just because you got your hands on one and got to cast it do I think that gives you ultimate rights to making parts available exclusively? No. I think that it's especially ridiculous to see something that costs about 25 bucks to make with a 500+ price tag.

I see how one would want to turn a buck or two out of that venture...being the only one available. But for someone who wants to make money out of this hobby, there is someone in this hobby who wants to see a true army of TKs or Clones march down the streets of downtown Atlanta. And it's that I applaud.

Not all of us can afford a single helmet for 500 dollars. Or a set of accurate armor for 1400 a suit.

And while its part of that feeling of being part of an "elite" group of collectors and being able to say that you have 100% accuracy in something that many others don't, I'd rather make it available to everyone.

So yes...thats my stance...if you're going to corner the market in an attempt to make money off of people, be ready for someone to undercut you. It happens in business all the time. So if you are gonna turn the hobby into your own business, don't grumble bout the hobbyists taking a stand against the conglomerate.


And if you are going to venture into investing $30,000 into making something...why not just go straight to the source and become a licensee with that corporation? It's obvious they will give you access to things...look at Avonos for example

If you grumble because you or a benefactor invested $30,000 to buy something or to pay someone off so you can make a cast of something and sell it without the original creators authority while its still their intellectual property...than tough...

 

[Too Much Garlic]

If everyone agreed not to support recasters, would you really think that cast from screen used pieces would be that expensive and limited? No way in hell. We would see TONS of pieces, various cast from screen used trooper helmets matched to individually matched on screen helmets, we would see Royal Guards, we would see the more high end Vader helmets become more available to the masses, we would finally get an accurate Biker Scout... but because people applaud recasters, you get stuck with the same old same old... and who's to blame for that?

People who own the original pieces or have access to original molds simply won't waste their time, money or risk anything anymore for the greedy, needy masses. Why should they? Why should they risk damaging and devaluing an original just to get stabbed in the back by the community they tried to enrich? Why should they bother?

 

[GINO]

That's it. I'm convinced.
Costumers just don't get it.

What you (and many others) don't seem to understand is that without any financial recoupment & compensation for the investment, there is no motivation or incentive for anyone to acquire anything that would normally be out of financial reach for most people.

We would be left with sucky scratch builds and licensed products.
Can't you understand that?

.

 

[GINO]

If everyone agreed not to support recasters, would you really think that cast from screen used pieces would be that expensive and limited? No way in hell. We would see TONS of pieces, various cast from screen used trooper helmets matched to individually matched on screen helmets, we would see Royal Guards, we would see the more high end Vader helmets become more available to the masses, we would finally get an accurate Biker Scout... but because people applaud recasters, you get stuck with the same old same old... and who's to blame for that?

People who own the original pieces or have access to original molds simply won't waste their time, money or risk anything anymore for the greedy, needy masses. Why should they? Why should they risk damaging and devaluing an original just to get stabbed in the back by the community they tried to enrich? Why should they bother?

Exactly.

 

[WebChief]

If you're so afraid of your financial investments being damaged than why even bother to make copies of them?

 

[Too Much Garlic]

If you're so afraid of your financial investments being damaged than why even bother to make copies of them?

Yes... which is why no one bothers anymore. Good point.

 

[goldenage]

You are right that there is no "real world" moral high ground in this hobby. The REPLICA in replica props essentially means the theft of intellectual property rights if nothing else, regardless of any casting/recasting issues.

Once that is accepted, .

Ah - but I don't accept that at all, and without that your neccesity to divide the casters into "members" and "theives" is moot - I enjoy this forum for several reasons, to see people discuss and compare licensed props, to see people create items that (either by dint of obscurity or age) have no intellectual property rights associated with them at all.

Yes the forum is a place where intellectual theft takes place, yes I've supported that, yes it would be dreary without it: but (as my question was to GINO) if that means I'm supposed to toe the party line and condone that theft on a corporate level but admonish it on a smaller scale: I wont - it's a laughable hypocrisy.

GINO seems to have summed up the "recasters are scum" side of the equation quite well, with only the occasional dip into anger (thanks for that GINO - I know it's a volatile subject) but as per every other time I've seen this topic crop up - it's couched in terms of "how dare the filthy recasters blemish our artists with their sub standard products and moneygrabbing ways" but when called on to justify the opinion it very soon boils down to a conversation about money.

No thief would ever be so stupid to defend themselves in court by saying they needed to rob the bank to recoup the outlay they had incurred in buying a gun, mask and getaway car. The people who desire a replica better than any comercialy available are in exactly the same boat "I had to steal the mona lisa because the posters in the giftshop didn't do it justice" it's a nonsense.

- Nothing I've seen here makes me see a black and white issue. It's not even a grey issue, it's all black and I've never seen a single argument to the contrary that holds water.

For the record - I don't support "re"casting, never knowingly would: I abhor this because any debate about the issue is treated with gang metality like a witch hunt.

 

[GINO]

I would not be as afraid of damaging the original as I am of not being able to recoup my time/$ investment.

But you hit the nail on the head. Why would anyone bother to make copies available to anyone if it means they further risk not being able to recoup?
Answer: It is becoming less and less. Things are shared between fewer and fewer people. The costs of the replicas have skyrocketed because they have to be sold to a much smaller pool of people.


.

 

[Gilmortar]

If everyone agreed not to support recasters, would you really think that cast from screen used pieces would be that expensive and limited? No way in hell.

Exactly.

No I don't think it would. But when you are offered things like a "screen used ANH TK Helmet replica" as opposed to an FX helmet I'm sure lots of people would be MUCH MORE THAN HAPPY with it than whats available.

And I understand your point. I realize there are risks involved with molding something. So if a friend of mine gave me access and the opportunity to cast a PP1 Fett helmet out of the archives, I would make sure I'm using materials as to not ruin the condition of the helmet and research exactly what technique i will use. YOU CAN mold something without ruining it if you do it right.

What you (and many others) don't seem to understand is that without any financial recoupment & compensation for the investment, there is no motivation or incentive for anyone to acquire anything that would normally be out of financial reach for most people.

We would be left with sucky scratch builds and licensed products.
Can't you understand that?

No Gino, I CAN'T understand that.

Because I HAVE molded things for myself, I HAVE held on to screen used items of value and had the ability to make molds of them for little to nothing.

It's the arrogant people who won't see past their own noses that not everyone can afford a $24,000 original.

Last time I checked there were still some places that offered CHEAP LICENSED REPLICAS. And by cheap I don't mean in quality.

I am a Costumer, you're right. I like to wear my replicas that I accumulated. I like to wear my SCREEN USED pieces as well.

What you fail to realize is that some of us don't care about who's credited for a PROP DISCOVERY. Or that they were the first ones to ever cast a full suit that was actually used in A New Hope. Or that they aren't making so much profit off of a helmet.

You want the truth. I cast an MR Fett helmet and offer it to my friends. Because I want to see them with a more accurate helmet than a DP 95 on their head, or on their mannequin for display.

So maybe the reason I post here and NOT on your site, is because you have your world, and I have mine.

I enjoy building and painting things for myself. I don't need gratification in arguing what the details and bumps are on the inside of a TK helmet. WHOOPTY DOO!!....

But I care about having fun with my hobby and hanging out with my friends. So when the matter of casting screen used pieces comes up, I might not financially be able to purchase something like you can Gino. But there are ways around spending THOUSANDS on a piece just to get a copy of it.

I have friends in the business as well, and friends of friends in high places of the business. But its not about who knows who, or who can spend what on something.

So again I state...there are 2 spectrums of this hobby. Those who costume, and those who collect.

Its obvious Gino that you collect and you make things to show off for aesthetic value. I make things that I can wear and show off and my friends see and say, wow man, you did a good job with this...and that I can wear out on Halloween and people go like this..

 

[Too Much Garlic]

No I don't think it would. But when you are offered things like a "screen used ANH TK Helmet replica" as opposed to an FX helmet I'm sure lots of people would be MUCH MORE THAN HAPPY with it than whats available.

TE did that and still got recast all to hell and with people defending it because he was a jerk. He sold cheap(er) helmets to the masses. So... again, your argument holds no water to the realities of the community.

 

[Too Much Garlic]

So again I state...there are 2 spectrums of this hobby. Those who costume, and those who collect.

And it is sad that those who costume seems to be killing the fun not only for themselves, but for those who collect as well, with their acceptance of recasting and wanting to get good stuff as cheap as possible, regardless.

And yes... that was a blanket statement and not all costumers are bad... as well as not all collectors. Just seems to be a looser attitude with costumers about price for the best stuff and them wanting it as cheap as possible because they are gonna costume in it and damage it. But then why go for the good stuff if you don't have any respect about where it came from or willing to pay the price for the collectible prop piece? With troopers... the FX was good enough for the kids and general public... so... why the switch if it wasn't the costumer that wanted something better... and the only place to get it was the prop collectible community. So why screw them over?

 

[Gilmortar]

TE did that and still got recast all to hell and with people defending it because he was a jerk. He sold cheap(er) helmets to the masses. So... again, your argument holds no water to the realities of the community.

300 dollars for a 30 dollar piece of plastic is not cheap....

 

[WebChief]

I would not be as afraid of damaging the original as I am of not being able to recoup my time/$ investment.

Gino, if you had simply said that you wanted to get paid for what you felt was fair enough to weigh against potentially damaging your prop I would have totally understood your stance and would have been perfectly fine with that.

Instead, you went one step further and had to reference recouping your time and cash investment. Your time? I've vacuformed helmets before... I know exactly how long that takes and the cost of the supplies to do it. You can't tell me that it costs you $500 of your time and supplies to cast one bucket. Not even close.

And your investment? As a collector, shouldn't the addition of the piece to your collection justify the investment and be reason enough for you to spend it? Or did you only buy it to in fact make money off it?

 

[Too Much Garlic]

300 dollars for a 30 dollar piece of plastic is not cheap....

So... who's greedy and needy now?

Why is a Porsche so expensive? It's only metal. Why are Sideshow statues so expensive? It's only plastic and paint. Why is anything expensive when it is made with just a few dollars worth of materials?

 

[g05ty]

Just a thought here ... the E11 .. there have been "licenced" replicas of this made but who actually owns the rights to this?? surely the arms makers who originally made the individual parts own the rights to them and putting a bit of plastic track and a small piece of flat bar do not make it a new item ( or we could all go out and get anyones replicas change 2% of it and call it our own), therefore from the original E11 to the latest fan made replica they are all replicas of products copywrited by a couple of arms makers etc so technically lucas inc cant own the rights to it and therefore cannot give out licences to reproduce them.
Does anyone get my point here ??:wacko

 

[GINO]

No Gino, I CAN'T understand that.

Because I HAVE molded things for myself, I HAVE held on to screen used items of value and had the ability to make molds of them for little to nothing.

In my 17 years in this hobby, I've yet to see someone come across the opportunity to cast a significant original or production made SW item for little or next to nothing. It's always been what I consider a major financial & time investment.

I am a Costumer, you're right.

Anyone noticing a trend here?

What you fail to realize is that some of us don't care about who's credited for a PROP DISCOVERY. Or that they were the first ones to ever cast a full suit that was actually used in A New Hope. Or that they aren't making so much profit off of a helmet.

That's because these types of things almost never come from people with your perspective.

You want the truth. I cast an MR Fett helmet and offer it to my friends. Because I want to see them with a more accurate helmet than a DP 95 on their head, or on their mannequin for display.

Good for you. I've already stated my stance on licensed pieces.

So maybe the reason I post here and NOT on your site, is because you have your world, and I have mine.

Righto.
However there are some exceptions to the rule, but yes generally costumers don't fit in.

I enjoy building and painting things for myself. I don't need gratification in arguing what the details and bumps are on the inside of a TK helmet. WHOOPTY DOO!!....

Different strokes...

So when the matter of casting screen used pieces comes up, I might not financially be able to purchase something like you can Gino.

Who said I could? I most certainly can't.

But there are ways around spending THOUSANDS on a piece just to get a copy of it.

Yea right. If it is a significant SW item, someone is paying heavily somewhere along the line make no mistake.