Casting off production made pieces , cool or not?

[Jedifyfe]

If you bought it and own it, I say cast away.

 

[GINO]

As many times as I've argued the importance of embracing the honor amongst thieves principle, I never feel it is a waste of time because I've seen people over time move from one attitude to another after they've come to see it's benefits in action first hand, or see the effects of what happens when you don't embrace it first hand.

If you knew some of the awesome original/cast off original props that were within our reach, but will most likely never be made available out of fear of being recast, I find it hard to believe that one could not see why this honor amongst thieve concept is so important.
Unless you are a collector that has no interest in new cast off original items.

Well that would depend if I agreed with you that recasting "deteriorated the fabric" of the community - it's a front loaded question.

I would love to hear an argument about how it doesn't deteriorate the community especially given the above example regarding the introduction of new rare items.

I don't consider them "scum" - in the same way I don't consider people who encourage "Anything cast off screen used original or production made, it is not only fine, but highly encouraged." as scum. I've been here for a while and I have yet to see anyone make any sense of this as a moral issue but it's always presented as sutch.

Surely you can see that the arbitrary moral line you draw between someone "re"casting a fan made piece and casting a production made piece is just a convenience - you (we) protect our own craftsmen and demonize those that don't follow the rules. Nothing wrong with that in principle (as I have said) as a rule - but to pretend it's moral and somehow "good" and label those that don't agree as "bad" is sheer idiocy.

Morals, ethics, all semantics really. But I don't see how one could not label screwing over your fellow unlicensed replica prop builder to be straight evil, unless you only believe there should be licensed props. You follow that line and it would mean this entire board has no purpose.

Honestly, if you are part of the unlicensed REPLICA prop community, there are only two directions to choose from.
1. Honor amongst thieves
2. recasting free for all

Choosing #2 prevents the introduction of new cool rare items or information from being shared. This includes cast from original items as well as sculpted from scratch. Both are illegal in the eyes of the studio.

You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Just for the record, to date, I've yet to see ANY people with pro-recaster attitudes have any SW replica prop in their possession that I consider worth a damn.
Do you think that is just a coincidence?

And do you think it is coincidence that the people who have access to special rare items are advocates of honor amongst thieves?
It's not an exclusive club. All you have to do is play by the rules, make some trusted friends in the community who share your viewpoint, and things, sometimes amazing things can come your way.

There are even people who just can't stand one another in this hobby, that still come together when it comes to this issue. Whether you realize it or not, that speaks volumes.

I understand the blacklist - as an Artist I would never knowingly sell work to someone I suspected might reproduce it, but can you see the difference between an artist who feels that way and a forger saying the same? Once you relinquish the moral ground you can't pick and choose "Casting production props - GOOD / recasting fan made repros - BAD" and expect to be taken seriously in the real world.

If you own any unlicensed prop, you have already surrendered your moral high ground. We all know and accept that once we walk through the door.
So like I said above, you either choose honor amongst thieves, or recasting free for all. If you want access to the good stuff and you plan on being in the community for any length of time, guess which of the above paths lead to a dead end?

Note - just saying out loud that I don't think it's an issue of good vs bad (with no real comment on whether I would support or encourage the practice of re/casting itself) has had people telling me I don't belong in the RPF.

But whether you realize it or not, you have already taken a side. Any side taken against honor amongst thieves is a recast supporting stance.

Do you agree with that - that somehow we should all be signing the "recasters are SCUM" manifesto otherwise we don't have a place on a board about replica props?

Absolutely. If it were up to me, I'd perma ban everyone who didn't believe in that. Luckily for a lot of people here, it is not up to me.
But participate in recasting and you are toast here.
Support recasting in any way shape or form, and you are totally blacklisted by those who have anything worth a damn to share.

(Sorry to address just you G - I'm not pointing fingers, I singled you out since you seem to be an old hand here and capable of stringing a sentence together rather than just rattling out the same old "burn the witch / if you don't like it leave / are you now or have you ever been a member of the communist party" baloney.)

Not a problem. I hope that our dialogue will benefit at least someone new who may not have looked at this issue from this perspective.

But let me be clear if I haven't already, those are my sentiments as well.


.

 

[Jannix Quinn]

It seems as though it's encouraged to steal, just don't steal from anyone here.

 

[GINO]

Not at all.
It doesn't matter where you recast someone.
If you recast on another board, you're going to be toast here just the same.


.

 

[fuelish]

If George Lucas offers a Storm Trooper costume that is identical to film used(AND HE COULD) but you choose to buy Bobs backdoor reproduction suit, that is kinda shady as it harms the original property holder(I would also bet money that the guy that actually did the design work sees ZERO dollars from the sale of the official Lucas suit, another part of this topic)

If you offer a piece cast from the original and the production company does not offer same, far less shady, as it DOES NOT harm the original property holder.

A lot of this comes down to shades of gray(Is it Ok to steal bread to feed your starving kids?) Sad that most people can only see in black or white.

 

[micdavis]

Well if this stuff came out of a dumpster, it's stills stealing from the studio, yes?

To clarify.

Some believe it's okay to steal from the studios but not each other. Good theory, but has no legs.

I think a better place to stand is to use the original items as reference to building your own version and mold that instead.

It's still not much different but at least you put in the effort to make something and didn't just pour rubber over something.

Most original move props are crap anyway. From my point of view I prefer an idealized rebuild to a straight casting.

 

[GINO]

If George Lucas offers a Storm Trooper costume that is identical to film used(AND HE COULD)...

It is impossible for me to disagree with you more.

BTW, if I could simply buy the stuff I have rather than build it myself, I would do it in a heartbeat. Even if it cost thousands, it would be so much less expensive than the time spent doing it myself.
But if you think that any company is ever going to produce anything to what I consider close to an accurate film prop replica, you are dreaming.

A lot of this comes down to shades of gray(Is it Ok to steal bread to feed your starving kids?) Sad that most people can only see in black or white.

I believe it is very black and white. People like to make it more complicated than it really is.
Any recasting scenario you can come up with, and I could easily put it into a black or white category.

.

 

[GINO]

I think a better place to stand is to use the original items as reference to building your own version and mold that instead.

But myself and many others would consider those efforts to be total crap.
Nothing even comes close to cast off original.

It's still not much different but at least you put in the effort to make something and didn't just pour rubber over something.

Most of the people I know, including myself, who have cast off original items spend an enormous amount of effort finishing off a prop beyond the actual casting. In a lot of cases, the base casting is the easiest part of the entire process. Finishing it out correctly with all the proper techniques, accessories, trimmings, etc.. is far more involved and a lot of times takes years of finely honed skill.

Most original move props are crap anyway. From my point of view I prefer an idealized rebuild to a straight casting.

Then I can understand why you would not be interested in cast off original props. Licensed pieces meet your expectations, where they don't for others.


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[fuelish]

It is impossible for me to disagree with you more.


.

Except for the black and white part, I think we agree more than you think we do.

 

[g05ty]

Well if this stuff came out of a dumpster, it's stills stealing from the studio, yes?

Over here in the uk if something is thrown away as soon as it hits the bin it becomes public property, not sure how it works anywhere else tho.:confused

 

[micdavis]

Really? So you're allowed to steal public property?

 

[Jannix Quinn]

That particular law was created as a result of the famous case of Finders vs Keepers.

 

[stormtrooperguy]

As many times as I've argued the importance of embracing the honor amongst thieves principle, I never feel it is a waste of time because I've seen people over time move from one attitude to another after they've come to see it's benefits in action first hand, or see the effects of what happens when you don't embrace it first hand.

I feel like I've said what I am about to say a bunch of times too, but my logic in repeating it is the same as yours... hoping to shift an attitude here and there.

I posted this on the 501st forum ages ago, which many people here wouldn't see.

For my own work, I subscribe to something similar to the CC/GPL/etc... world. "Opencasting" we called it. Basically, like a Creative Commons type licenses, the idea is that you are welcome to do whatever you want with my props. Cast, modify, resell, whatever. If anyone asks, be honest about the origins. You have permission, why hide it?

The rationale boils down to this:

From my perspective, the only damage done by recasting is reputation and financial.

Lots of people want to be the Best Stormtrooper Helmet Guy Evar, or the First Person To Make an Accurate Vader Codpiece. If you are looking for the reputation of being the best at whatever, recasting could hurt that.

I don't care about being the best. I make the stuff I want, to a level I'm happy with. I love the other people like what I do and enjoy sharing it with them, but that's not my goal. I'm not making an animated style DC15 now because other people wanted it... I'm doing it because I wanted one. So if I never made another one after my own, that would be just fine.

If you sell $500 stormtrooper helmets, clearly you would want to protect them, since that's a lot of money, and people would be very likely to buy a $200 recast instead. I have no interest in making money off of my hobby. That takes the fun out of it for me. I just wrapped up a run of 23 suits of animated clone armor, and I made exactly $0 from it. I did the work for free, and only charge the cost of plastic / electricity.

Other than those 2 things, I fail to see any actual, tangible harm to the artist / owner / from being recast. I still have my original sculpt. I still have the helmets for my head. I can still make more any time I want... well...

I actually gave the molds away after making my own helmets, so that someone else could make them for other people. I just didn't have the interest. Yes, GAVE away, not sold.

I know of at least 1 person who has recast it under the opencasting concept. I'm totally excited to see what comes of that... he's in another country and shipping helmets overseas is big money. I'm glad people can get them cheaper from him!

So to me, the honor amongst thieves thing falls a little short of awesome. I think it seems like people trying to defend their turf / keep their little niches in the prop world safe.

If anything, I'd love for my legacy to be the guy who gave away more stuff than anyone else. Or maybe the person who encouraged someone else to just say "go on, recast me, it's cool".

(and before anyone asks, I'm on hiatus for a few months from making stuff as I build my new workshop. so no cheap clones in the immediate future )

 

[defstartrooper]

I don't consider them "scum" - in the same way I don't consider people who encourage "Anything cast off screen used original or production made, it is not only fine, but highly encouraged." as scum. I've been here for a while and I have yet to see anyone make any sense of this as a moral issue but it's always presented as sutch.

Surely you can see that the arbitrary moral line you draw between someone "re"casting a fan made piece and casting a production made piece is just a convenience - you (we) protect our own craftsmen and demonize those that don't follow the rules. Nothing wrong with that in principle (as I have said) as a rule - but to pretend it's moral and somehow "good" and label those that don't agree as "bad" is sheer idiocy.

Well to follow this view you have to be a person that is of the opinion that all things are equal, which doesn't really happen in the real world.
Lets just take an example of say speeding, it's an illegal activity doesn't make a difference if you're 5mph over the limit or 50mph over the limit right ?
Well you see legally it doesn't, either way you're breaking the law, but most people wouldn't take a dim view of someone going 5mph over the limit, infact chances are even if you're pulled over you might get away with a warning if you don't make a habit of speeding, but law aside Joe Public won't paint you as a bad person for driving a few miles over.
If you happen to be tearing down a residential street where kids are playing 50mph over the limit you'll not only end up in serious trouble legally but Joe Public will not like you either they will see you as a wreckless, uncaring, selfish, idiot.

See where i'm going ? there are degrees of right and wrong, it's not a black and white thing.

Well if this stuff came out of a dumpster, it's stills stealing from the studio, yes?

To clarify.

Some believe it's okay to steal from the studios but not each other. Good theory, but has no legs.

I think a better place to stand is to use the original items as reference to building your own version and mold that instead.

It's still not much different but at least you put in the effort to make something and didn't just pour rubber over something.

Most original move props are crap anyway. From my point of view I prefer an idealized rebuild to a straight casting.

So people who cast from screen used pieces make no effort ?
Well screen used pieces aren't usually two a penny and if you're seeking a particular item they normally take some time to track down.
One could take athe view that spending a great deal of time and money to secure an item is just as much effort as spending a couple of weekends building something from scratch, infact probably more, dunno about you but most people put a fair bit of effort into earning their wages.

 

[defstartrooper]

Really? So you're allowed to steal public property?

It's refuse it belongs to nobody and yes legally you're allowed to take it.

 

[itsalive]

Recasting the work of members here is not cool.

Way I see it is like this. I'm a struggling artist. If I take what little wages I have and I use them to make a replica of something, and I do it entirely on my own using nothing but images or video for study ref. Well you damn well better believe that I would be mad and hurt if someone else recast or retooled my work and stole what little profits I would retain for all the time energy and money involved to make it.

I like to make stuff! and as a few artist have said in the line of replica creation defense "It's mainly for myself" but if I did it just for myself. I could never afford to keep doing it and expanding the scope of my next project/recreation. I'm always in need of more tools, more casting, sculpting, and molding compounds, and paints, and so on.

Most of the big talents on the Sideshow team started off making and selling unlicensed replicas of famous film characters and creatures.
Anyone who can do this, wants to do it legitimately. The problem is in being hired and having enough experience to handle the workloads/deadlines.


Some people survive long enough on the replica fan track to get that experience and prove their replicating self worth. To the point where companies like sideshow realize the need to hire them.

I wish big business would adopt a small number run rule. Making it's legal for a fan to make and sell "fan based" replicas so long as they dont sell more then "10 copies" for example.


I don't know how I feel about recasting the actual props. Mainly because there is little art involved, and nothing is really created- it's just taken.

Recreations from scratch to me are true talents on display and the real works to be admired here. There used to be a time when a person could see something they desire or admire, go on to replicate it in a drawing, paint or solid medium, and not get in trouble for it. Those days are over. What's worse is some people say those types are not artist and what they made is not art

 

[g05ty]

I feel like I've said what I am about to say a bunch of times too, but my logic in repeating it is the same as yours... hoping to shift an attitude here and there.

I posted this on the 501st forum ages ago, which many people here wouldn't see.

For my own work, I subscribe to something similar to the CC/GPL/etc... world. "Opencasting" we called it. Basically, like a Creative Commons type licenses, the idea is that you are welcome to do whatever you want with my props. Cast, modify, resell, whatever. If anyone asks, be honest about the origins. You have permission, why hide it?

The rationale boils down to this:

From my perspective, the only damage done by recasting is reputation and financial.

Lots of people want to be the Best Stormtrooper Helmet Guy Evar, or the First Person To Make an Accurate Vader Codpiece. If you are looking for the reputation of being the best at whatever, recasting could hurt that.

I don't care about being the best. I make the stuff I want, to a level I'm happy with. I love the other people like what I do and enjoy sharing it with them, but that's not my goal. I'm not making an animated style DC15 now because other people wanted it... I'm doing it because I wanted one. So if I never made another one after my own, that would be just fine.

If you sell $500 stormtrooper helmets, clearly you would want to protect them, since that's a lot of money, and people would be very likely to buy a $200 recast instead. I have no interest in making money off of my hobby. That takes the fun out of it for me. I just wrapped up a run of 23 suits of animated clone armor, and I made exactly $0 from it. I did the work for free, and only charge the cost of plastic / electricity.

Other than those 2 things, I fail to see any actual, tangible harm to the artist / owner / from being recast. I still have my original sculpt. I still have the helmets for my head. I can still make more any time I want... well...

I actually gave the molds away after making my own helmets, so that someone else could make them for other people. I just didn't have the interest. Yes, GAVE away, not sold.

I know of at least 1 person who has recast it under the opencasting concept. I'm totally excited to see what comes of that... he's in another country and shipping helmets overseas is big money. I'm glad people can get them cheaper from him!

So to me, the honor amongst thieves thing falls a little short of awesome. I think it seems like people trying to defend their turf / keep their little niches in the prop world safe.

If anything, I'd love for my legacy to be the guy who gave away more stuff than anyone else. Or maybe the person who encouraged someone else to just say "go on, recast me, it's cool".

(and before anyone asks, I'm on hiatus for a few months from making stuff as I build my new workshop. so no cheap clones in the immediate future )

sorry for the huge post here but i have to say ths is the kind of attitude i think should be adopted by a few more replica makers... well done this man at last someone who knows that not everyone will or can spend £500/$500 on a bucket, stormtrooperguy if youre ever in the u.k beers are on me thumbsup

 

[propologist]

Thanks guy's i think i'm pretty clear on this now. So Who is interested in a cast from a "screen used" vader Penis pump? It can be seen quite clearly on the bench in vaders chamber as he is so rudely interupted. Anyone? this will be a limited run.

see what you got started....shame on you. If the Penis pump is a " Hero" pump then yes I want one. I don't want it to be a " set dressing pump" that the stunt guy used.

So what have you learned ?

1. You can steal..I mean get a Krayt Dragon bone from the desert and cast it because it is an original prop.
2. Recasting is bad in the 1000 or so people that use this forum.
3. If you use multiple quotes it looks like you know what your talking about.
4. Everything prop related is Illegal , but the studios are smart enough not to care.
5. Honor among thieves is a loose term..
6. There are , what seems to be , ALOT of single prop makers here.
7. Arrogance and " one-upmanship" is key to survival around here.
8. If you've read this far down your more bored than I am with this topic.
9. I still would like to own 10 battle droids. All originals of course.

10. and most important...it's your money and time do whatever you want to .

 

[Capt TJ]

It's refuse it belongs to nobody and yes legally you're allowed to take it.

It's the same here in the US. Once it hits the curb, it's in the public domain. The only thing stopping you would be local laws that prevent "dumpster diving".

In law enforcement, this is how we can get away with garbage picks. :love

 

[jedimaster]

see what you got started....shame on you. If the Penis pump is a " Hero" pump then yes I want one. I don't want it to be a " set dressing pump" that the stunt guy used.

So what have you learned ?

1. You can steal..I mean get a Krayt Dragon bone from the desert and cast it because it is an original prop.
2. Recasting is bad in the 1000 or so people that use this forum.
3. If you use multiple quotes it looks like you know what your talking about.
4. Everything prop related is Illegal , but the studios are smart enough not to care.
5. Honor among thieves is a loose term..
6. There are , what seems to be , ALOT of single prop makers here.
7. Arrogance and " one-upmanship" is key to survival around here.
8. If you've read this far down your more bored than I am with this topic.
9. I still would like to own 10 battle droids. All originals of course.

10. and most important...it's your money and time do whatever you want to .

its the Hero Version. Pm me about the b/droids