defstartrooper
Sr Member
Ok well look you don't deny this DaveTheDanes a thief right ? great that's the purpose of the thread, mision accomplished.
Buyer beware DavetheDane
- Thread starter defstartrooper
- Start date
Ok well look you don't deny this DaveTheDanes a thief right ? great that's the purpose of the thread, mision accomplished.
Absolutly, I wouldn't buy from him, nor would I sell to him. In my eyes though, he's in the same boat as all the other stormtrooper vendors pulling copies of work they didn't sculpt.
Edit; I keep seeing people mentioning "rights" and "hobby" I think somewhere along the way, some have lost perspective on what these words mean. In my opionion at least, a hobby is something you do for enjoyment, not profit. If you can profit from your enjoyment then that's great but, vendors argueing over the right to profit from something that's really just business atthe end of the day is almost rediculous. If you want to be the only person on the scene with "rights" to produce copies of actual film property for profit, then perhaps it's time to put on your big boy pants and buy a license. Then, at least, you can defend your "right" to profit, which is what this is really boiling down to. It has nothing to do with the actual real tangable ownership a sculptor has on his or her own work, regardless if it's derivative or not.
Edit; I keep seeing people mentioning "rights" and "hobby" I think somewhere along the way, some have lost perspective on what these words mean. In my opionion at least, a hobby is something you do for enjoyment, not profit. If you can profit from your enjoyment then that's great but, vendors argueing over the right to profit from something that's really just business atthe end of the day is almost rediculous. If you want to be the only person on the scene with "rights" to produce copies of actual film property for profit, then perhaps it's time to put on your big boy pants and buy a license. Then, at least, you can defend your "right" to profit, which is what this is really boiling down to. It has nothing to do with the actual real tangable ownership a sculptor has on his or her own work, regardless if it's derivative or not.
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mattiza
New Member
GINO
Sr Member
For you to think that of me, just further illustrates just how removed and out of touch you are from this whole subject.
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Perhaps you are right. None the less, I still have great difficulty understanding why you think you should be the only one allowed to make copies of something you neither made nor owned. Exactly where in all this does your "ownership" or "right" come into it? What part of it did you make? If you sculpted the plugs then I would back you 100% However if all you've done is reproduce some stolen parts, you can not expect the same respect and protection afforded to artists.
edit;
I think this illustrates a fundamental difference in our morals. While I agree with you that the studios IP lawyers probably treat both the same, there is massive difference, however you seem to switch standpoints when it suits you. You're choosing to use the view point of the studio to assert that you have the same rights as a "fan" sculpt. This is just nonsense. An original sculpture, regardless if it is derivative, is the intellectual property of the the sculptor. That is where the "rights" of an artist comes in, taking something that is not yours and copying it, is not what this hobby is about, in my opinion at least. Why should the community be expected to offer protection to thieves? The protection offered to artists in this hobby is a form of respect. Perhaps it is just me but I find it difficult to respect people who take what does not belong to them and use it solely for profit. How many suits have you made? How much money have you taken? Enough to obtain a license? If I'm wrong and you are, in fact, an artist and sculpted those pieces, I humbly apologise.
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I keep seeing the phrases "I have rights" I gave rights".
Forgive me Im a noob to TK stuff but am a long time artist and hobbyist but did George Lucas give "rights" or permisssion to TE to make the armor? If not then he never had rights to produce it and there fore cannot give anyone else rights or permission.
And also just because you pay alot of money for something doesnt give you "rights" to it. Just so you know.
I paid alot for my SUV does that mean I can reproduce it becuase I feel because I spent sooo much its now mine to replicate....nope
Anyone that knows me knows I am super anti recasting of fan made props...But it seems that something that was made by someone else then purchased even for alot of money doesnt give one auto rights to replicate it.
By those standards and reasoning anyone who feels like they paid alot for something now has the right to recast it? 100.00 could be alot to some people.Personally I dont care if you paid 100.00 or 10,000.00 for something it doesnt give them the right to recast it unless written permission is given by the IP holder or the original artist.
Forgive me Im a noob to TK stuff but am a long time artist and hobbyist but did George Lucas give "rights" or permisssion to TE to make the armor? If not then he never had rights to produce it and there fore cannot give anyone else rights or permission.
And also just because you pay alot of money for something doesnt give you "rights" to it. Just so you know.
I paid alot for my SUV does that mean I can reproduce it becuase I feel because I spent sooo much its now mine to replicate....nope
Anyone that knows me knows I am super anti recasting of fan made props...But it seems that something that was made by someone else then purchased even for alot of money doesnt give one auto rights to replicate it.
By those standards and reasoning anyone who feels like they paid alot for something now has the right to recast it? 100.00 could be alot to some people.Personally I dont care if you paid 100.00 or 10,000.00 for something it doesnt give them the right to recast it unless written permission is given by the IP holder or the original artist.
GINO
Sr Member
With that logic, anyone should be able to copy your fett soft part patterns. You don't own IP rights to fett. It doesn't matter if you made it from scratch. You think LFL cares if it is cast off original or made from scratch?
You can't have it both ways. Sounds like a justification to me for poor behavior.
Here you are complaing about someone copying your stuff on TDH:
That sir is the definition of a hypocrite.
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You can't have it both ways. Sounds like a justification to me for poor behavior.
Here you are complaing about someone copying your stuff on TDH:
That sir is the definition of a hypocrite.
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EVO3
Well-Known Member
No, not a hypocrite. SGB took the time to study the suit and come up with HIS OWN patterns. He DID NOT BUY a screen used suit to take the patterns off of.
Fact is, the only person that has the rights to a screen used prop is the person or production company that outsourced the sculpt. If an artist creates a replica prop from scratch, he may not own the IP rights but it is his art work to do with what he pleases. That is until he gets a CD order.
GINO
Sr Member
In the eyes of LFL and the law, there is absolutely NO difference between the two.
None of us have any legal rights to this stuff.
Our rights exist solely within the hobby itself. Not to the outside world.
And those rights are just as valid whether you sculpt something from scratch, or you cast an original prop.
It's either protection for all, or protection for none. You don't get to cherry pick.
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None of us have any legal rights to this stuff.
Our rights exist solely within the hobby itself. Not to the outside world.
And those rights are just as valid whether you sculpt something from scratch, or you cast an original prop.
It's either protection for all, or protection for none. You don't get to cherry pick.
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defstartrooper
Sr Member
Well duh anyones free to cast and sell screen casts till they get a C&D, if they bought the item they legally own the item, what they don't own is the legal right to reproduce it, the studio doesn't give a crap about the physical piece they care about their IP.
See that's the thing you have people who scratchbuild rationalizing their theft of IP, they aren't legally free to do jack with their artwork except keep it, they have no legal right to sell it.
They have no more legal right than someone casting a screen used item.
That's the facts of law
Onigiri
Sr Member
No the first armor was Mike Moore of HMS who Marco copied....theres a little trooper history for you.
You still fail to see the point though. If you rip of the people bringing this to the market they are going to STOP bringing it to the market. Its too frickin bad if you dont like the cost and want your toys cheaper...that mentality doesnt HELP the community it only insures nobody will offer up rare items in teh future and THATS the bottom line. The trooper community in particular seems to be very shortsighted on this point and only cares about right now and saving some money. If you dont get that then theres really no point in discussing it. This board is very NON recaster and recaster supporter friendly. Its not acceptable here and you can argue the same as others before you until youre blue in the face and that wont change. We look to the viability of the hobby as a WHOLE and in to the future not just about our own selfish needs in the moment.
You still fail to see the point though. If you rip of the people bringing this to the market they are going to STOP bringing it to the market. Its too frickin bad if you dont like the cost and want your toys cheaper...that mentality doesnt HELP the community it only insures nobody will offer up rare items in teh future and THATS the bottom line. The trooper community in particular seems to be very shortsighted on this point and only cares about right now and saving some money. If you dont get that then theres really no point in discussing it. This board is very NON recaster and recaster supporter friendly. Its not acceptable here and you can argue the same as others before you until youre blue in the face and that wont change. We look to the viability of the hobby as a WHOLE and in to the future not just about our own selfish needs in the moment.
Onigiri
Sr Member
You have no clue what infringement is....you should really study up.
Your ignorance on the legalities of infringement pretty much make you ropinion null and void because its based on ignorance.
Your ignorance on the legalities of infringement pretty much make you ropinion null and void because its based on ignorance.
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This argument always comes down to who it is okay to steal from and who it isn't. We are thieves, all of us, any of us who have produced any replica prop ever. Moreso if we did it for money. Arguing the convoluted rationalizations passed off as ethics is amusing, but ultimately pointless.
The community here has drawn its line in the sand. While it is no more substantial (in a legal sense) than a breath of air, it is enforced to the full extent of our collective ability to shame.
The fact is you can either abide by the rules or you can't. Those that can't don't last.
For what its worth, thanks for the heads up about DavetheDane.
The community here has drawn its line in the sand. While it is no more substantial (in a legal sense) than a breath of air, it is enforced to the full extent of our collective ability to shame.
The fact is you can either abide by the rules or you can't. Those that can't don't last.
For what its worth, thanks for the heads up about DavetheDane.
Davy Jones
Sr Member
Mods?
Onigiri
Sr Member
Yep
Its kind of like the Mafia and Yakuza...nobody pretends in those groups that they are law abiding citizens but they have their OWN code which is inviable and enforced from within regardless of the law of the land.
Call it Honor Among Thieves or whatever...the 'ethics' involved DO exist but they exist within the microcosm of this community...this Prop Mafia.
Guido the Mafioso isnt going to run to the cops and say,"Hey, Mr Cop, Vinnie stole my counterfeit plates that I was printing money with and has gone in to business for himself!"
Nope
Guido is going to go to the folks in his family and say,"Hey, this rat stole from me" and the family is going to do its OWN form of rectification.
There are ethics at play they are just not the ethics of society as a whole and were established, not to protect society, but to protect our community.
Its kind of like the Mafia and Yakuza...nobody pretends in those groups that they are law abiding citizens but they have their OWN code which is inviable and enforced from within regardless of the law of the land.
Call it Honor Among Thieves or whatever...the 'ethics' involved DO exist but they exist within the microcosm of this community...this Prop Mafia.
Guido the Mafioso isnt going to run to the cops and say,"Hey, Mr Cop, Vinnie stole my counterfeit plates that I was printing money with and has gone in to business for himself!"
Nope
Guido is going to go to the folks in his family and say,"Hey, this rat stole from me" and the family is going to do its OWN form of rectification.
There are ethics at play they are just not the ethics of society as a whole and were established, not to protect society, but to protect our community.
EVO3
Well-Known Member
No, i pretty much know that none of us have IP rights to do what we do. I dont expect anyone whos never created anything from scratch to understand but i'll put it like this. There is a difference between someone that spends months in a shop creating something from scratch and someone who spends a day pouring plaster into an existing helmet to make a copy.
And now whos in it more for the money? The guy that spent months recreating something from nothing will sell his helmet anywhere from $100-$300 depending on how complicated a helmet it is to make.
The guy that poured plaster into an authentic TK helmet then walks over to a vac machine and pulls a helmet from about $20 worth of plastic will sell his for $500 (or whatever ridiculous amount of money a TK helmet is going for nowadays). So now really, whos in it for the money? If they were doing it for the prop community as some have said, then the prices wouldnt be as inflated as they are. They would make it affordable to all.
In the end, there are Re-creators and there are recasters. I am a re-creator, along with SGB, Pghfett and a few others. We have nothing to recast off of, because we are working from movie stills and CGI images. So please, dont ever say that what we do is recasting.
Onigiri, I made my point without insulting anyone, so please dont insult me by calling me ignorant. Im all for having a good clean debate, but once the name calling starts, Youre making this thread way to personal.
On a lighter note..........
Happy 4th of July to all, and thank you to all the members in our armed forces. The sacrifices you make for us to keep our freedoms do not go unnoticed. :thumbsup
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Amish Trooper
Master Member
Well said EVO3
defstartrooper
Sr Member
It's a little more complicated than pouring some plaster into a helmet be fair, it's also not easy or cheap to get hold of an original trooper helmet, they dont fall from the sky like rain, if they were that common nobody would copy them would they ?
Look at the starship troopers stuff or chronicles of riddick armour there's so much about and it has been out there in the hands of people for years nobody has ever sold replicas, because the originals are readily available.
I think you're a little deluded if you think anyone including scratchbuilders does it entirely for the love of the hobby or anything as romantic as that, i'm sure you and other scratchbuilders put a bit of profit into your prices when you sell it's understandable and the obvious way of things.
Materials cost the same wether it's a scratchbuilt item or a cast from screen used that's a silly thing to come up with.
Is there $300 worth of materials in SGB's Fett concept helmet kit ? i doubt that, is it worth it ? hell yeah, but gelcoat and fibre matting is cheap as chips, it's his time and effort he's charging for and deserves every cent.
But lets be honest that's what he has invested in that kit, time and a little bit of money for sculpting materials,molding materials,gelcoat etc, not a fortune.
Someone that has paid for a screen used item also has time, not time sculpting but time hunting down and securing an item,it's not easy if it's a rare piece and we've aleady established no point in copying stuff that's easy to find.
It's not cheap to buy this stuff either, there's a big difference you as a sculpter might have a a feww hundred sunk into something, an original owner might have several tens of thousands sunk into something.
And once and for all lets be clear someone casting a screen used item is stealing from the studio, not the artist, the artist doesn't own anything or have any financial interest in any props, the studio owns them.
A scratchbuilder is stealing from that same studio, dress it up and justify it how you will but the truth is you are stealing from the very same people a cast from screen used seller is.
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