Buffy chalice prop/set dressing - is it authentic?

[Moxiebot]

Hello! I'm new and this is my first post.

I'm on a quest to find out if an item I bought on eBay could possibly be an authentic production prop (may or may not have been screen used), from Buffy the Vampire Slayer TV show. I realize this could be a pretty big/impossible task, but I do have a few clues that might help. I'm hoping someone here mind be kind enough to share any insights that might be had.

This item is claimed to have been purchased from Sony Studio Hand Props Department. So the first question that comes to mind: Does anyone know if the Buffy production actually used Sony for their props? I did look at Sony's prop department site, and it does look like they pretty much rent out items to any production.

Secondly, on the bottom of this item is written, in what looks like black fine tip felt pen, the word "sony" followed by a 6 digit number. Does this sound valid for handling inventory of props for Sony?

Any help is greatly appreciated, thanks!

 

[Moxiebot]

No prop love for me

 

[Stairstars]

I think if you do a Google search of LA PROP and the seller's name you might find some articles about this source.

I also reccomend that any BUFFY or ANGEL props you desire in the future come with a 20th Century FOX COA, as they were the producing studio. Some folks early on fell for WB COAs since they were watching the show on that network, but they had no more to do with the show as anyone claiming SONY did.

rick

 

[Moxiebot]

Well, I've done a bit more research on this and thought I'd post what I've found.

I contacted a very helpful person at Sony Pictures Studios who is in the property/set dressing department. He confirmed that Sony had in fact rented "quite a few props" to Buffy during their run. A while back Sony moved to a new warehouse and liquidated a bunch of their inventory, and is when it was probably sold. He let me know that the markings and number where consistent with their old inventory system, but he didn't have a way to confirm the number (since it was from the old system). But he did say, “There is very strong probability that the piece was rented from us and used on Buffy..”

The timing and story roughly corresponds with what the seller has told me, so I think there is a good chance it's authentic

 

[Stairstars]

Then you certainly did not do any due dilligence on LA PROP.

Did you ask him if he was in the SONY HAND PROPS DEPARTMENT?

Did he know that SONY is a Japanese company that did not enter US picture production until 1990, and by then studios used bar codes and not hand written numbers? Any inventory that existed before then would be from Columbia - not SONY.

I work for HERITAGE Autions in Dallas - we had to refund $230,000 in bogus LA PROP items in 2007 after they were reported to the FBI and WFAA-TV did an investigative report that went nationwide.


rick

 

[Moxiebot]

Thanks for responding to my post and providing more details.

He was from the "Property/Set Dressing" department, which does handle "handprops".

Buffy ran from 1997 to 2003, which is well after Sony entered US picture production.

As for barcode vs. written numbers.. that does seem like an interesting point. Barcodes do resolve to numbers, so is it possible they would sometimes write the number directly on an item? I gave the person at Sony details of the markings, and he raised no objection, but said "...the markings tell me that it was a Sony asset at one time."

As for due diligence.. I didn't actually purchase it from LA PROP, however I had read the couple of articles posted on opb which did appear to tie my ebay seller (jnsmcmahan) to LA Prop . I actually purchased the prop in order to get more information and see if I could draw the same connections. I obtained the sellers real name (thru PayPal), and location it shipped from.. both didn't match what the opb articles indicated for LA Prop.

I'm not trying to be difficult, I'm just pointing out my findings. I'd like to convince myself beyond a shadow of doubt between authentic or not. I really appreciate any and all feedback.

Also, this isn't a "serious" endeavor for me.. the prop doesn't mean that much to me.. I have a couple screen used props purchased from reputable sources which I cherish greatly.. this is just a "it'd be cool if it was authentic" type deal.. it looks just as fine on my shelf, tho

 

[robstyle]

Honestly, its a thrift store item. Background items are just that, background. Rental items are used in countless productions from print to film to tv to internet to stagings... This is how and the reason so many fakes pop up for sale cheap on the auction site. Slap a tag on it or buy in bulk from a studio close out and your near free to list it as used in whatever production you like. Its an item that came from a rental house so it could have been used in anything within a certain time frame. Anything that will catch a buyers key word, priced within a reasonable range, who will go through the trouble to track it down. Then if they do, its a rental item thats out of the system.

If you like ill go into my garage and find you a similar cup for half the price.

 

[Moxiebot]

Really? It's a pretty cool cup... you'd sell me one for $12.49 shipping included?

 

[robstyle]

sure, why not. I can hit the thrift store for more if you like.

 

[Moxiebot]

Nah, I just want the one from your garage.. but only if you write "robstyle" on the bottom in fine tip sharpie along with a 6 digit inventory number. I only want an authentic robstyle.

 

[Xenophon1]

Then you certainly did not do any due dilligence on LA PROP.

Did you ask him if he was in the SONY HAND PROPS DEPARTMENT?

Did he know that SONY is a Japanese company that did not enter US picture production until 1990, and by then studios used bar codes and not hand written numbers? Any inventory that existed before then would be from Columbia - not SONY.

I work for HERITAGE Autions in Dallas - we had to refund $230,000 in bogus LA PROP items in 2007 after they were reported to the FBI and WFAA-TV did an investigative report that went nationwide.


rick

To be fair (to people who've bought items sourced from them, not to those fraudsters), the people behind the LA Prop scam did have experience with real props and bought and sold real items before they started defrauding people (and probably continued to do so); so, it's not like everything they've ever touched is crap, and it's not like they didn't fool professionals like you and many others. I mentioned in another thread some time ago that I once bought an item from long-time respected source Star Wares, which I was distressed to find out had been bought by them from LA Prop (Star Wares had gotten it through one of your auctions, actually). I was livid when I saw my newly acquired uniform right there in an old Heritage catalogue, attributed to LA Prop, who by that time had long been exposed.

Fortunately for me, I did lots of additional digging and was able to find that the same uniform, identifiable as the same by the handwritten labels, had been sold by another auction company back in 2003 (presumably that's where LA Prop got it), and in the earlier auction it had been accompanied by a genuine inventory tag from The Costume Collection with handwriting I recognized, establishing The Costume Collection as the reputable original source for my uniform. Interestingly, my research found lots of similar costumes sold by LA Prop after they acquired the one I now have, so they seem to have bought an original screenused uniform to use it as a pattern of sorts for knowing which brand and style of pieces to buy so that they could sell many fakes.

I have no doubt there are many LA Prop forgeries which have been stripped of their LA Prop connections by being resold through other sources with new COAs, and sit in collections today with their owners unaware of dubious provenance. I also have no doubt that there are some authentic items which are now tainted by their association with LA Prop. It's an unfortunate mess and makes me glad that many more items are today available direct from studio authorized outlets...

 

[Xenophon1]

I'm not trying to be difficult, I'm just pointing out my findings. I'd like to convince myself beyond a shadow of doubt between authentic or not. I really appreciate any and all feedback.

Also, this isn't a "serious" endeavor for me.. the prop doesn't mean that much to me.. I have a couple screen used props purchased from reputable sources which I cherish greatly.. this is just a "it'd be cool if it was authentic" type deal.. it looks just as fine on my shelf, tho

Unfortunately, as robstyle pointed out there's really no way to tell whether such an item was used in such a show, because it's a background item rented from a big prop warehouse. Realistically, it was probably screenused somewhere in something--but probably not in Buffy. :unsure Buffy is one of those shows which is a popular target for forgeries and frauds in the marketplace, and the source you got it from is one of those sellers who might sell a few good and honestly described items but many to most of whose items seem to be random junk from warehouse sales which is probably deliberately misattributed, either by the seller or someone the seller bought it from.

When I was new to the hobby I bought a few pieces that turned out to be junk, myself. It takes time to learn the hallmarks of authenticity. Unfortunately, everywhere where there's something of value to be sold there's someone willing to rip people off. We live in a world where people sell counterfeit baby formula, for gods' sake, so it's not surprising that some people will counterfeit props, autographs, etc.

Anyway, as a diehard Buffy fan myself, I have to ask what it is that attracts you to the show, and what kinds of props would you like to own from it? Do you like other Whedon shows? That's a much nicer subject to think about...

 

[Moxiebot]

All good points. I just want to thank everyone for the much appreciated info/insight. And Xenophon1, you're right.. it's good to move on to nicer subjects... Buffy!

So, I'm a bit of a noob.. and coming late to the party.. my first exposure was actually to FireFly.. I saw The Train Job on TV, and by the end of the episode I was amazed.. this was something great. I dutifully missed all remaining episodes (or maybe it had already been canceled, not sure).. and then one day I saw a trailer for a movie... and I said to my wife.. "hey.. that kinda looks like it's related to that awesome TV show we saw...". So after seeing the movie, then buying the TV episodes.. I hungered for more.. and became aware that the same dude "Joss is my Master Now" was behind Buffy.. another show I had been dutifully avoiding.. but no longer! I bought The Chosen Collection.. and have been hooked ever since. I'm a fan of all things Joss... but Buffy has a pretty special spot, given the 7 seasons.. such a long run to develop and explore the characters.

As for props.. I'm very recent to screen used prop collecting, but the things that interest me most are items created for the production (not just bought and used). I lean away from prosthetics, or items that don't really stand alone.. so weapons fit pretty nice in my collecting interests for Buffy.

 

[robstyle]

Be very weary about collecting Buffy items. There are a couple people out there that single handedly tainted the entire market. There is a reason why everyone has a screen used Buffy Stake or why so many screen used Blood Axes are out there.

 

[Robert412]

I've recently seen a couple auctions for screen used Buffy teeth... A set from harmony's gang and a set from glory's minions. Any way of telling if they're real? Or fake, rather.

 

[robstyle]

Im not a Buffy fan so no help on my side, never cared to watch a minute of an episode. Just keep in mind they would be custom fit to an actors real teeth, cast in as close to color as can be and show signs of proper wear. Too many fakes have no signs of actual on set use but are instead literally kicked around on the ground or artificially aged. On set real wear is distinguishable if you know what to look for.

 

[Robert412]

Im not a Buffy fan so no help on my side, never cared to watch a minute of an episode.

From one rob to another, if you ever do decide to watch an episode, definitely start from the beginning, trudge through season one enjoying the humor it has to offer, then enjoy seasons two through seven, as you learn to love, loathe, and lose your favorite characters. It really is worth it.

I had seen a few episodes and hated it. Then I worked in a video store. We had to have something playing at all times. It was easier to throw on a series than try to decide on a movie. I eventually stumbled across Buffy, and immediately loved it. It's the character development. Gets me every time.

 

[Moxiebot]

I second that.. don't judge from just a couple episodes of season 1.. you'll be in season 2 before it really starts to click.

 

[Xenophon1]

I've recently seen a couple auctions for screen used Buffy teeth... A set from harmony's gang and a set from glory's minions. Any way of telling if they're real? Or fake, rather.

That particular seller is a reputable long-time collector with a very large Buffy collection. I haven't seen him sell anything definitely inauthentic, and have seen him sell dozens if not hundreds of authentic pieces over the years. Most have had authentic Fox COAs and most that haven't have been bought directly from crew or effects houses and were clearly screen-matchable or otherwise seemingly authentic. The only thing he ever sold that I would have had qualms about buying is a group of stakes with no clear provenance; stakes are the most often forged, so I wouldn't buy one without a COA from a reputable dealer or LOA from a crewmamber. As for the teeth, IIRC he made a bulk purchase of demon teeth from Propstore of London, and has a COA from them with a picture of several dozen dental boxes on it saying something like "35 screen used teeth from Buffy/Angel" or similar, which he used to include color copies of whenever he sold a set from that lot. At least that's how I remember it; been a couple years since I bought anything from him...

 

[Xenophon1]

I second that.. don't judge from just a couple episodes of season 1.. you'll be in season 2 before it really starts to click.

I started watching when Season 5 was airing. My sister had been into the show for years, and was very excited about the season premiere. I dutifully made fun of her for being so into a show called "Buffy," especially since I'd seen the original film (as boneable as Kristy Swanson was at the time, and as good as the one-liners were...ugh). But, the TV was in the same room as my PC, so I saw parts of the episode and it looked pretty interesting and sounded very witty. At the end, when my sister totally freaked out at the introduction of Dawn, I said "Well, are you sure they didn't mention her before, and she was away at school or something?" She was practically hysterical, "NO! SHE'S JUST APPEARED OUT OF NOWHERE! FOUR SEASONS AND THEY NEVER ONCE MENTIONED HER! SOMETHING FREAKY IS GOING ON! GRRR-AAARGH!"

So, I watched the next week (the Dawn-centric episode Real Me) and I was hooked. Because of how and when I started watching, Dawn became my favorite character at first--which I suspect puts me in a small minority. But anyway, Season 5 was magnificent and the ending was just amazing. I'm not ashamed to say it brought a tear to my eye. Wow, just wow.

After that I went back and watched all the previous seasons, and while Season 1 was a little disappointing it had its high points, and in Season 2 it really picked up. By the middle of Season 2 it was just as good as future seasons, and I whipped through the rest of the first 4 seasons furiously over the summer. Buffy, Willow, Xander, Giles, Angel--what an amazing ensemble of main characters. Cordelia, Oz, Faith, Tara--even the second-rung characters in Buffy are as fleshed-out and well-loved as the first rung. Spike, Dru, Angelus--what delicious enemies.

So I was super-excited for Season 6, and while most of the vocal fans at the time seemed to be upset or disappointed by it, I thought it was brilliant and it remains my favorite. Every week got darker and more depressing, relentlessly, and I loved it. Seldom is a show unafraid to abuse the characters the audience loves, but Season 6 did it with purpose and never held back. It hurt so good, and the last three-episode arc was so frenetic and powerful I can't think of another finale I've enjoyed so much, except for the first-season finale of Veronica Mars. Again with the wow.

Season 7 was very choppy, probably because of the decision to end the series coming after the first few episodes had already gone to production. But it did have some great episodes and the finale was once again a high point.

Since then I've introduced a lot of people to the show, and the Season 1 and Season 2 box sets are frequent gifts. Veronica Mars, Firefly, Angel, and Alias are the only dramas of the 2000s that come close, IMHO...