Bladerunner Theory: Deckard has Gaff's Memories

Discussion in 'Entertainment and Movie Talk' started by Mike J., Nov 26, 2011.

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  1. Mike J.

    Mike J. Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Not mine, but an intriguing one, none the less:

    In short, yes, Deckard is a Replicant, and he has Gaff's memories:

    Gavin Rothery's Blog


    -M
     
  2. Wes R

    Wes R Legendary Member

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    For sure that's an interesting take on things. We know according to the books (nobody hang me for reading them) that Rachel was based physically and mentally on Tyrell's real niece and it would make more sense to use already existing memories than to make them from scratch.
     
  3. nickytea

    nickytea Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Gaff is a replicant, too.
    How else could he fold those things so well?

    Actually, I'm pretty sure Ridley said in an interview recently, everyone that appears in the movie is a replicant.
     
  4. Wes R

    Wes R Legendary Member

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    At this point i think Ridley's been replaced by a replicant whose movies aren't as good as the original's films lol.
     
  5. Mike J.

    Mike J. Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    ... What if I'm a replicant?

    :lol
     
  6. nickytea

    nickytea Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Everyone both is and isn't a replicant.
    It's a thought experiment known as "Tyrell's Cat."
     
  7. cayman shen

    cayman shen Master Member

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    :lol:lol:lol
     
  8. IndyBlues

    IndyBlues Sr Member

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    That is a pretty cool theory, actually. Gaff is handicapped, and uses a cane. Probably can't go after replicants anymore. Maybe that's why he is breaking Deckards balls through the film. Jealousy, and resentment at being replaced by a replicant.
    Mike
     
  9. MooCriket

    MooCriket Master Member

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  10. TheDoctor

    TheDoctor Sr Member

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    Interesting theory. The only hole in that is I would think it would be difficult to implant memories into someone who looked different than their memories - it would be like waking up one morning, looking in the mirror, and you look completely different.

    Personally I would keep it simple: Deckard is a replicant of Deckard - either killed in the line of duty or actually retired. Gaff used to be Deckard's partner (hense his knowledge of Deckard).

    I guess the other possibility is the real Deckard was killed and they transplanted his memories into a replicant (maybe it's something they do for certain people - I bet Tyrell gets a replicant).

    See? Isn't this speculation MUCH better than getting a prequel and having it all explained?
     
  11. Larry Young

    Larry Young Master Member

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    If I had one wish, it wouldn't be for world peace or for people on the Internet to take a minute to grok context before they spew idiocy, it'd be for everyone from Sir Rid on down to admit that if Deckard is a replicant, there is no emotional core to that movie.
     
  12. robstyle

    robstyle Master Member

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    Having a friend that worked heavily on Blade Runner, ins and outs, Ridley did indeed intend Deckard to be a replicant. Its not something that was black and white which is why people will argue it to death. Its also one of the main reason BR has become what it is as there is lots left for the viewer to interpret, discover and fill in. It was a film, not the bland formula dribble that has become movies of today.

    On that note, I find a gaping hole in the guys write up:

    "The replicants in Blade Runner know they're replicants. Except Rachael..."

    Thats wrong. If memory serves they are never told what they are and regular, day to day human life isnt something they know of, are taught or follow. They are, just as Batty says in the movie, slaves. They serve a purpose and do jobs. The "new" experimental replicants are given memories. To add more "WTF?" to the mix, Tyrell is a replicant, he was filmed as a replciant. The parts that were never included with any cut of the film is the real Tyrell, and this is even in the Future Noir book and the filming script, is kept in suspended animation awaiting a cure for some disease. His condition is a complete secret for the sake of the control of the corporation. But, Darrel's other brother Darrel accidentally kills him while maintaining his suspended animation system. That job is why Darrel and his other brother Darrel have direct access to Tyrell in both human and replicant form. Batty, and I forget how, knows this. In the script prior to where Harrison Ford was involved and while Dustin Hoffman was still on as Deckard, Hoffman demanded parts of this scene be taken out. This was after Batty kills Tyrell, then he would go and kill his family. The ONLY reason he kills Tyrell is because he knows Tyrell is a replicant.

    To sum it up, replicants do not know they are replicants. If this ends up the prequel story, ill be a happy man: Batty found out he is a replicant while on an off world colony base, banded together, organized an uprising and escaped with a handful of others. His plan isnt to save, free or exonerate replicants. His intention is for more life, screw everyone else as they are expendable although he obviously becomes close to the girls.
     
  13. nickytea

    nickytea Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    "How can it not know what it is?"
     
  14. Birdie

    Birdie Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Huh? :confused

    Who is Darrel??

    If the replicants don't know what they are, then how have they come back to Earth seeking infornation on their actual model of replicant (they know they are Nexus 6) and explicitly seek out employers of Tyrell, and eventually the man himself, to extend their lifespan?

    They know exactly what they are.

     
  15. JediG60racer

    JediG60racer Sr Member

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    I LOL'd at the "Gavin is clearly of Asian descent" comment.

    Yup, Eddie Olmos. Clearly Asian!!!
     
  16. robstyle

    robstyle Master Member

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    Re-read:

    To sum it up, replicants do not know they are replicants. If this ends up the prequel story, ill be a happy man: Batty found out he is a replicant while on an off world colony base, banded together, organized an uprising and escaped with a handful of others. His plan isnt to save, free or exonerate replicants. His intention is for more life, screw everyone else as they are expendable although he obviously becomes close to the girls.

    Darrel and his other brother Darrel is the character of JF Sebastian. Back in the 80's the actor was on the Newhart Show as "Larry":
    Larry Deryl and Deryl - YouTube
     
  17. nickytea

    nickytea Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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  18. Apollo

    Apollo Legendary Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    :lol You knew you were going to have to explain that one! :lol



     
  19. Birdie

    Birdie Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Good grief, I actually remember that now, didn't know it was the same actor, though :lol

    I'm still not seeing where the original movie supports the idea that offworld replicants don't know what they are, though.



     
  20. Apollo

    Apollo Legendary Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Don't feel bad it was only a dream Bob had anyway! :lol



     
  21. Larry Young

    Larry Young Master Member

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  22. Sundowner

    Sundowner Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    This is why I love Blade Runner! Once I'm set on how to interpret the story someone goes on and flips it on its head making me question my thought.
     
  23. robstyle

    robstyle Master Member

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    Birdie,

    Believe it or not, regardless of what past interviews say or whats been in print, a back story was in place. These are things I recently learned by someone who was closely attached to the film. Much of that back story is evident in the opening crawl. One thing that I never thought of and I really doubt anyone else did, it never says humans were the genetic engineers. Again, all part of the brief back story I was told. Other things were humanity and most other animal species are near sterile.

    Now read the opening crawl again but with the thought that replicants dont know what they are, genetic engineers could well be replicants themselves, and humans are to become extinct. It opens up the flood gates for the prequel and furthers the need for the replicant Tyrell.

    Early in the 21st Century, THE TYRELL CORPORATION advanced Robot evolution into the NEXUS phase -- a being virtually identical to a human -- known as a replicant. The NEXUS 6 Replicants were superior in strength and agility, and at least equal in intelligence, to the genetic engineers who created them.
    Replicants were used Off-world as slave labor, in the hazardous exploration and colonization of other planets. After a bloody mutiny by a NEXUS 6 combat team in an Off-world colony, Replicants were declared illegal on earth under penalty of death.
    Special police squads -- BLADE RUNNER UNITS -- had orders to shoot to kill, upon detection, any trespassing Replicants. This was not called execution. It was called retirement.
     
  24. CessnaDriver

    CessnaDriver Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    The book he wasn't, though another cop questioned himself, he was tested and was not. The various screenplay writers never said he was. Harrison Ford as well.

    It is critical to the story that it be something you may ask, and thus question the nature of yourself. People can become machines, yes Deckard WAS a replicant in a sense because the job had turned him cold, and these machines he was sent to test and kill, were more human.. then human. It took them for him to find his humanity again!

    Anything more then that is a crime against the elegance of the story.

    The massive conspiracy necessary for Deckard as replicant is not realistic anyways.
     
  25. Birdie

    Birdie Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    And Fancher and, I think, Peoples would agree with you. Ridley's a master visualist and technician, but he's not exactly known for his, ahem, warmth.

    I don't think he gets the heart of the story at all.
     
  26. Sundowner

    Sundowner Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    I'm gonna have to disagree. Deckard IS a replicant unless everyone has glowing orange eyes
    [​IMG]
     
  27. CessnaDriver

    CessnaDriver Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Ford said he screwed up, missed his mark and this was a mistake as the effect was a very specific lighting set up to get.


    Again, Deckard as replicant doesn't work as the conspiracy level necessary by all those in the film is complex and in my view... silly.
     
  28. robstyle

    robstyle Master Member

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    Book, comic book, based on a short story, video game.... all are moot, were talking the movie.

    Dudes a "robot". He has every replicant trait, to name a few: cant deal with emotions, holds onto memories and pictures, has an inferiority complex, seems to be good at only one thing. He is not diseased, deformed or deemed "undesirable" so why is he still on the polluted, dead Earth and not Offworld? And, in the end, he ran. He had seen himself in Rachel. The Deckard is Gaff theory is a good one but it just doesnt hold up in the long run.

    And before I forget, Holden (the cop shot under the table by Leon) was still alive. It was filmed and I believe footage has been released of Deckard going to visit him for info on Leon. If Deckard has anyones direct memories, its Holden's.

    We can go on and on but opinions are just that and everyone has theirs. I hope some new info will officially come to light when the new film is up and going. Yet even then people will dismiss that info...

    Blade Runner started in the middle of everything. It was only what happened after the replicants battle to Earth. None of the replicants were bad guys. More or less they were confused children that were never taught human civility. They were fabricated slaves forced to do battle, sacrifice themselves to dangerous jobs, be the dog to the darkest sexual desires of others on a constant basis.... The prequel, if it follows their story leading up to the flight to Earth can be a ****ed up story.
     
  29. MooCriket

    MooCriket Master Member

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    What a depressing day. I've just learned that I am a replicant.
     
  30. androidandy

    androidandy Sr Member

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    I think the movie actually works several ways, and at least can be viewed both ways as far as Deckard's humanity. The problem with him being a replicant and it becoming the surprise ending (Ala 6th Sense), is that it really only works once in that manner, and not all that shockingly either. As far as the emotional core missing if he is a replicant, I don't buy that either, because the replicants create the emotional core quite nicely. They prove that they are essentially human, so it doesn't matter what Deckard is, his humanity is dependant in the end on his choices. His origin does not matter for emotional connection at all, because you assume his humanity at the beginning, and should question it by the end anyway. Phillip K Dick never answered whether Deckard was a human or not in the book, and also shows evidence both ways. Both the film and the book should make you question your own humanity, more than the characters. I do understand though, that once you have decided what the movie means to you, it is difficult change your first perceptions of it.

    Another often pointed out moment in the film that made people say it was a hint toward his status is when Batty saves his life and says "Kinship" as he grabs his arm just before the fall. Some people say it is that moment Batty recognizes him as a replicant. It happens right after Batty talks about being a slave, and I feel that is what Roy sees in him at that moment, another slave just doing the dirty work no one else wants to do. He also seems to respect Deckard's spitting at him just as he loses his grip, and respects Deckard's defiance.

    Honestly, it is always fun to me to ponder all kinds of hidden back stories in the film, and compare it to what is seen in the film. Even if Gaff is not his template, which I doubt because of the big difference in their personalities, I think he does kind of use Deckard as a kind of remote drone, to do the dirty work he is incapable of doing himself. It has been talked about a lot that Deckard may have been created just before the story started to fill this role, and is even copied off the same mold as Holden (Morgan Paul was a stand in for Ford in the auditions because he looked so much like him, and Ridley later decided to hire him for Holden). I can almost see them all coming from a template that came before, and maybe is a compilation of different peoples memories, and more importantly their training and skills. It is very likely since new replicants have such short lifespans, they would need to be born with their training already hard wired. Still Deckard/Ford is scarred, and shows a bit more weathering than Holden. Maybe he is the template, and why Gaff knows his memories. No easy answers, but may also may be why many of us have liked this movie for so long, its ability to create discussion and thought.

    Andy
     
  31. Larry Young

    Larry Young Master Member

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    In the same way Pinnochio is "essentially" a real boy.

    I don't care what happens to Pinnochio, because Geppetto can just whittle another one.
     
  32. Flagg

    Flagg Sr Member

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    When I saw the original theater version I didnt walk away thinking that Deckard was a replicant. I agree that him being human makes the movie have more emotional punch. Then I saw the director's cut and all the 90 other versions where they are more obvious about it and I still liked the flick but overall I felt it lost something with him being a replicant as well. I also liked the version better where it just ends with the elevator doors closing instead of heading off into the mountains etc.
     
  33. CessnaDriver

    CessnaDriver Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Deckard as replicant is daft, Think about it...
    He sucks against the Nexus 6. Badly! He is nearly killed time and time again save for luck or being rescued... by a replicant!
    Why would everyone be involved in this replicant superweapon Blade Runner conspiracy when he clearly was no match.
    They would have sent in another Nexus 6 at a minimum.

    Deckard gets the shakes.... badly. We've seen it, he needs alcohol to get by and plenty of it.

    Why would anyone engineer that for a super anti-replicant weapon!?

    Yes he is emotionally shutdown, that is one of the points in the book. What happens to a man when doing that job.

    None of the replicants recognize Deckard as one of their own.
    Even Sebastian and Chew spotted Nexus 6 easy.
    They clearly knew what each other were as they came to earth together.


    Again, and it's the 800lb gorilla in the room that Deckard as replicant advocates continue to dance around..

    The massive level of conspiracy required.

    From Tyrell all the way down to the beat cop and who Deckard rents from.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2011
  34. Wes R

    Wes R Legendary Member

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    If anything half his replicant traits could be explained by him being a burnt out cop. He was miserable and killing replicants was getting to him, plus the booze probably didn't help, and i bet at some point if Rachael hadn't come along he'd have punched his own ticket.
     
  35. robstyle

    robstyle Master Member

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    I really fail to see this "conspiracy" of Deckard being a replicant.
    Replicants are specialized to the job, they are not super weapons. Its even said in the movie, gift them with a past...

    Take into account the Earth for the most part is done. Not just LA or major cities but the Earth as a whole. The only real danger or conspiracy of replicants being on Earth is to have them realize what they are and what they are working/fighting for. Since they are an artificial person with individual intelligence whats to stop them from just walking away, going on strike or taking over? Now give them a reason to. Mankind knowingly destroyed the Earth now they are looking to take over another planet and do it again. Why let them?

    If replicants put two and two together, they can simply take over. This would essentially mean an end to Tyrell Corporation and humanity as its known. The only fail safe control is the limited life span yet that brings back in the question of replicants making replicants. If a single genetic engineer realized he/she is a replicant and secretly starts mucking about with things, game over and it turns into They Live but with light up umbrellas.
     
  36. CessnaDriver

    CessnaDriver Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    It's a conspiracy because they are illegal on earth for one, two and here is the gorilla....you have to have people like Bryant in on the little secret pretending for this dude is some guy that's been on the force a dogs age. Holden, Gaff, everyone.

    They are all acting and pretending in his presence to keep up appearances. Shhhh....don't tell the horribly inadequate replicant for this job he is a replicant.

    That's a lot of show to put on and it's plain silly.

    He also was quit. Right? He was quit and on the street. We saw that.

    They would let a replicant walk like that out into normal life?
    No worries?

    It doesn't fit guys, it never has and I don't see the appeal.
    I don't know what else to say.
    It's awkward, forced, and utterly destroys the elegance of the story.

    A replicant learns that replicants should not be slaves? Wow. Big whoop.
    There is no redemption in that and who would care because nothing has changed.

    People start spinning all kinds of weird clumsy meaning to Deckard as replicant to make it work somehow.

    It doesn't work. You can pound a square peg into a round hole eventually though.
     
  37. Larry Young

    Larry Young Master Member

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    The "conspiracy" folks refer to is not that Deckard is a replicant; rather that the infrastructure that has to be in place given the world as presented in the film to allow the character to be a replicant borders on the conspiratorial.
     
  38. CessnaDriver

    CessnaDriver Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    AND they would be trying fool a detective.
     
  39. nickytea

    nickytea Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    God, yes. I'm tempted to post my video again.

    To believe he is a replicant you must assume:

    That Gaff left the unicorn. (Silly, as of course he did, but we never see it.)

    That Gaff's unicorn origami was referring to Deckard's dream. (I always took it to reference Rachel. Telling Deckard to realize what he had found with her, replicant or not.)

    That either Deckard's unicorn dream was a memory, or that dreams can also be implanted into replicants.

    That there is a "file" containing replicant's memories/dreams. (We never see this.)

    That Gaff had access to this "file."

    The off screen movie it would take to explain this would be longer than the actual movie.


    All that being said, I like the question, and hate the answer. The doubt is more important thematically. I object to nothing but Ridley's insistence that it be one, very ridiculous thing.
     
  40. Larry Young

    Larry Young Master Member

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    Gaff's unicorn is saying Deckard's love for Rachael is a fantasy.

    Also, you should link your tube clip again, as it is undeniably awesome. :lol
     
  41. CessnaDriver

    CessnaDriver Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    And is consistant with his character just being an azz with those origami/matchsticks through the film.

    I wonder if he got his promotion?
     
  42. robstyle

    robstyle Master Member

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    Your looking at things blinded in a theory its a conspiracy yet completely missing the point. The world is done and the only thing keeping mankind going is artificial food, light, life... Get past the thought train that anyone knows who is who and realize nobody does. Like I said, we can go on and on.

    Deckard wasnt alive that much time prior to him standing there in the rain. He is programed to do a job full of memories that are not his. Look at Gaff, seems to be an obvious human baby sitting Deckard, always breathing down his neck. At the end I believe Gaff expected Deckard to either off Rachel or bring her in. Instead he ran.

    The issue of us going back and forth is because we have seen the movie upteenhundred times. I used to not believe Deckard was a replicant but it makes perfect sense. The people ive shown the movie to that have never seen it before thought Deckard was going to off Rachel, he is a replicant and cant believe the movie is 30 years old.


    The back story I mentioned has much to do with how Deckards apartment is decorated. Dont think for a second all those picture memories and such just happened to show up on set. It was a lot of work to make happen. Its in relation to "precious photos". More thought went into things than people are given credit for.
     
  43. Larry Young

    Larry Young Master Member

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    No, of course; but it's more of a yin-yang thing. A burned-out human remembering past glories is equal to a newly-mint replicant "remembering" triumphs that weren't theirs.

    If Deckard is human, the story is transcendant; if he's not, it might as well be an episode of Thomas the Tank Engine.
     
  44. robn1

    robn1 Master Member

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    I agree with Larry and Cessna, Deckard being human is a much better story. A robot, who doesn't know he's a robot, sent to kill other robots is cool in a techy sci-fi way; but this film is about more than that. I've always seen it as Deckard is a flesh and blood naturally born human. He's emotionally detached, either from his work or maybe he was always like that. The robots he's sent to kill teach him a lesson about humanity, and about himself. That's a much more compelling story, whether it was intended or not.

    And Batty choosing to spare Deckard's life would lose all of it's impact if he was another replicant. And if Deckard is a replicant, why does he get his * handed to him? He and Batty should at least be evenly matched physically, and I expect a cop replicant would be built to be a better fighter.
     
  45. Krel

    Krel Sr Member

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    It has been done before in the 1920s, "R.U.R.", Rossum's Universal Robots.

    David.
     
  46. CessnaDriver

    CessnaDriver Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    The moment blew me away as a young teen.
    The whole film climaxing in this moment of mercy.
    This moment of transcendence.
    Batty earns his humanity in that moment. Deckard has found his again.


    [​IMG]
     
  47. CessnaDriver

    CessnaDriver Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    "I've seen things you people wouldn't believe....."


    I think it's quite safe to say that Batty would have figured out if Deckard was human or replicant by the time he said that, he never would have used "you people" if it were another replicant.

    In fact what would his monologue have been?... Fellow slave, we space replicants have seen things you earth replicants wouldn't believe?
     
  48. Larry Young

    Larry Young Master Member

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    yesyesyesyesyes
     
  49. robstyle

    robstyle Master Member

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    I dont believe Batty knew who was or was not human/replicant on Earth but he sure walked around like he carried a mighty big stick. His story again is self preservation. In the end he accepted his fate and went out with a self imposed whimper as opposed to a bang. If the prequel focuses on the mentioned replicants story, it will make him an anti hero.
     
  50. androidandy

    androidandy Sr Member

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    I would say by this reply that you would likely fail a VK test ;)...

    PK Dick makes his point that caring for an individual life, be it human or otherwise is what makes us human. If you had a twin, would it be okay to say it is alright for one of you to die since there are two of you? Or if we could clone you, is your life that less valuable? A replacement is not the same person/being as the original. They are two unique beings. That is one of the points that can be derived from films like this. It isn't our origins or labels that make us "Human", it is our choices and actions. Our "soul", so to speak. Also being able to dehumanize someone based on a label is also part of the film's hidden messages. The replicants are in essence human physically/biologically, but because they are "Man made", they can be used as slaves. Either our dehumanizing others based on their status is wrong, or our lifting ourselves up to a sanctified status is.

    As far as the "elegance" of the film missing, I have an issue with it because it asks for, and in the end means "simple, neatly contained story". One of the reasons I love this movie is the layered complexity throughout. Even if all the outside context was unintentional, it was influenced by the people working on it, and the turmoil of the times. It ends up being much more deep and authentic as a result. It is something that seems to be missing from so much film now in the days of expensive, overly crafted films, that seem to me to lack heart. Real dirt, grime, and blemishes are missing, in exchange for stylization and superficial stereotypes.

    Andy
     

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