Blade Runner ID comparisons

I'm not a member of T4BB. I'm in no way, shape or form beholden to "Voldemort" :rolleyes. I do, however, occasionally post in the 'other' forum. In fact I posted there a couple of days ago, defending Richard Coyle. I disputed accusations that he had the photos pulled in order to corner the market on a new BR blaster.

I suggested that Richard would no longer be producing such a prop, as this would show his actions regarding the photographs as very disengenuous indeed. Then, last night, I received a group email from Richard saying that the gun was 'a go' and soliciting for orders. Boy, did I feel stupid :love

Oh yeah, and disgusted, manipulated.

Back in the gun thread, I asked Phil several times why he should be/feel accountable to his contacts for the actions of others (Karl/Rich) in, respectiveley, posting the pictures, and replicating the pistol.

I received no reply from Phil.

Then this thread starts up. Like SfProps, I don't believe Phil had any ill-intention or tried to misguide anyone when the wallet was produced, but if folk can't see the damage limitation going on, then I don't know what to say. There seem to be ducks loudly quacking all over the place.

I don't hate Phil. I have always had a great relationship with him. I have absoluteley no agenda here, don't belong to any private prop groups and neither love nor hate T4 or its detractors. I see a situation which smells very, very, unpleasant all round and when Phil starts denouncing anyone who dares question his motives because of his reputation *I* feel insulted. There are no demigods here. This 'do you know who I am?' attitude sucks. Sorry Phil, I'm just trying to call it as I see it, and as a non-partisan participant, it's not making sense to me.
 
can someone send me a picture of the convention id? the only one I didn't snag. I have no agenda, just curious.
 
I have nothing against Phil since I don't really know him that well. But this whole conspiracy drama would not have come to this if

1. Phil wouldn't have spoken for the other higher ups in the blaster thread, if they wanted to voice their opinion then they would have done so themselves not through someone else.

2. If Phil would have come out with something like, " This new id card discoveries are like the ones I made and I need to check again. If I need to change or update them, then those who bought from me will get a free of charge replacement with the new features. Since my source material look to be in some what different I may have jumped the gun in saying they where screen acturate from actual items used in the movie." Or something like that, I'm not trying to put words into your mouth Phil. But a little explanation would have worked along with showing the board your id card to compare with the convention one from the get go.

3. Nobody would have noticed the difference in the id cards if the pics were not taken down from the post in the first place. Except fore those who bought the wallet from you, then you would have dealt with them on the side. This whole negative feelings would not have come to this and attacking your reputation.

Once again I appologize Phil, but this is my opinion for what has come to this whole fiasco.
My 2 cents have been put in the collection jar.

OH, let not also forget the other party in this and not attack Phil alone what about Rich and taking down the pics deal. I have nothing against you Rich, but your actions made people wonder as well.
 
First of all, I don't know Phill or Richard at all. I've never heard of Phill before I started posting about the ID. Also, I didn't know who Phil was even after I started posting. Someone brought it to my attention that he was the guy who made the wallet.

My focus is on the claims that were made about the ID and the fact that Phill refuses to proven them.

The way Phill presents his project is pretty shady to me. None of his claims can be proven because he so conveniently pleads the 5th so he can protect his sources.

My source this, my source that. We have proven beyond ANY doubt that his claims are false about the I.D. he made. We are 100% clear that his claims were false. He admitted he was wrong (Ooops, mistaken).

That's what I was out to prove. Things didn't add up and I needed answers. I'm pretty good at doing research and finding out things so I wanted to solve this riddle. I'm glad there are many others who feel the same need as I did. I just hope the rest of his wallet in genuine.

I am not a member of T4 nor do I have an agenda other than discovering the truth in a false claim. I really liked working on the ID card that I made and I was drawn into the discussion through my research on making the ID. I was in utter shock that it could sell for $300.

For all I know Phill could be Mother Theresa's right hand man, but the fact is that No one that post's here is above being accountable for their claims.

I believe the reason people are harsh to Phill was his fancyfull way of stepping around valid questions that were brought up. His replies made me laugh at how he could avoid blame or the truth. In my experience, this is the actions of someone with something to hide. This can make many people angry. Some people can get down right mean. Phill is the only one to blame here not the people who proved that he was in fact wrong.

I'm relatively new here so I don't know his, or most other peoples history, and I don't care who you are or how long you've been here or what fonts you've made or who you know etc. I did however find it alarming that Phill has numerous prior problems with authenticating his referenced material.

I saw something wrong and I called the person on it. I don't think Phill should be banned, but I do think he needs to prove to the moderators that his claims to even have a source for his wallet is in fact true.

If he can not do this, I think actions should be taken against him in some fashion.

Is it the history of the RPF to just take someone's word on things? If that is the case, I don't see why more people can't make props and just say "I can't reveal the person, but they assure me that it's real".

I would love nothing better than to have Phill PROVE to us that he's not a liar. All we need is some form of irrefutable proof that the original stuff he used as reference was used in the movie Blade Runner. That's it. I'm affraid that this will NEVER happen due to the clever way he can get around things.

I know he'll post something like, "I have a duty to protect my sources and even if it makes me look like the the bad guy, which I am not (and by the way I can not tell a lie), I have to honor my agreement. I am a man of integrity and a man of my word......"


FB
 
<div class='quotetop'>(SFPROPS @ Sep 8 2006, 10:46 PM) [snapback]1316255[/snapback]</div>
I also don't think Phil intended to mislead anyone when he sold odd-sized Carter Burke Alien acrylic business cards stating that he believed them to be highly accurate (before better pictures of an original surfaced).

[/b]

Did I miss this? I haven't seen any other pics of an original Burke card.

I'm still happy with the one i have though.

David
 
<div class='quotetop'>(dkwd @ Sep 9 2006, 05:06 PM) [snapback]1316693[/snapback]</div>
<div class='quotetop'>(SFPROPS @ Sep 8 2006, 10:46 PM) [snapback]1316255[/snapback]
I also don't think Phil intended to mislead anyone when he sold odd-sized Carter Burke Alien acrylic business cards stating that he believed them to be highly accurate (before better pictures of an original surfaced).

[/b]

Did I miss this? I haven't seen any other pics of an original Burke card.

I'm still happy with the one i have though.

David
[/b][/quote]

Don't get me wrong...I'm still happy with mine as well.

I believe that the newer Aliens DVD release had a production still (I think that's where I saw it) showing the card very clearly and it was eiither a lot narrower or wider. I can't remember which. I just remember that the difference in size was substantial. I've got an older style PKD kit that suffers from the same malady. :lol

<div class='quotetop'></div>
I would love nothing better than to have Phill PROVE to us that he's not a liar[/b]

A liar is someone who knowingly says things that are false. In regards to the ID's provenance, I think you're going to have a hard time proving such a thing and when accusing someone of being a "liar" (which is a designation above and beyond simply not telling the truth, IMO) I believe the burden of proof is on the one making the accusation. You can easily prove someone is wrong, it's much harder to prove someone knew they were wrong and made false claims anyways. I personally think it will be doubly hard because, in regards to the ID, I don't think he intentionally mislead anyone (though I could be wrong).

In regards to the matter of trying to manipulate people into thinking he had no incentive or stake in the matter he was discussing with the "higher ups", which ended with another person who also had a stake asking for the photos to be removed (at the expense of the members here), the evidence is there for people to decide for themselves.
 
Ah - that explains it. The quadilogy finally came down enough for us to justify getting a new copy of a movie I already have on DVD.

I'll see after I get it on Christmas.

David
 
For the record, I do not own a copy of the wallet. I've been asked the question about a million times recently, so there ya go.

I DO have a copy of the NDA sitting on my desk, and I would have purchased it if 5 months ago if my Disney gig would have started as scheduled, and I was making the moolah. Instead the show (a road based reality show about native american rock bands) has been pushed back for further development and to be retooled. More than likely will never happen now. You move on to other things.

Does this mean I would not buy it still? The sad fact of my life is that I have a weak spot and that weak spot is blade runner. I know that Phil has made a high quality product, and to be TOTALLY honest the appeal for me was never that it matched the screen used piece. I'm not even very suprised it doesn't match. The appeal for me was that it is blade runner. Period. Doesn't have to be canon, doesn't have to be screen-used or screen accurate. I want. I WANT. :love

The second aspect is, can I afford it, and am I willing to pay the high price for a freakin' wallet. The answer right now is No, and Yes. In the very near future, after I have done some other things and made some cashola, well, it'll be yes and yes.

Whether Phil will still sell the wallet after all this, or sell to me again after being pushy and kind of a jerk to him in these threads I guess is the real question. But I have purchased from Phil in the past, and have had many a conversation about him with other people, and the fact is he's part of a handful of people who are just very solid when it comes to the selling. He sells cool stuff that is top shelf, and might be pricey. It's a FACT. Whatever you're opinion of his character, or whether you agree with him being a liar or not.

But like I said, I'm a sucker for Blade Runner. I know it, and now so do you. :D

Does this change the way things have unfolded here? Nope. Just a point I wanted to make, that I think the wallet is still cool, and it's still worth more than you're average ebay "neocron" wallet badge. Which is nice but weird. Would I like to pay less than a grand? Sure, but the price is the price. He's asking it, you're either paying it or walking away.

I will also buy one of spinner44's wallets if I can get one. That wallet also looks to kick heaping loads of BR replica arse. Mafia be damned, I think it's cool too.

But folks have to get over some things here. The high end guys have to get over themselves I guess and thinking thier collections make them special, the people who bought the wallet will have to get over thinking it was something it's apparently not, and we all gotta get over Karl's wondeful pictures being removed, and the ensuing prop drama.

Now, to get BACK on topic, specifically the ID comparison. There are already replica ID's hitting the big E, we might even see ID's with the "real" ID photo now. So if you want one, they are not hard to come by. Will Phil be recreating this "real" version? Maybe including a laminated copy of it with his written apology to his buyers? (that's a joke - haha)

It will certainly be interesting and provacative to see what the future holds. Consider me compelled.

I'm tired, but compelled.
Njc------------
 
i missed something. please pardon my ignorance. What is a NDA? In my mind, it stands for 'non-disclosure agreement.' But after that last post, i'm guessing it means something different here?

thanks
 
Look Phil with Regards to the ID, this isn't about any of the following...

T4BB vs Moffeaton, Phil et.al.
Voldemort
Lies
Scams
Personal Hate
or even elaborate conspiracies...

It is about 1 thing and it is the same thing I harped about in the Miami Vice ID Thread....

Homework.
Homework..
Homework...

As a broker, you should do your homework with regards to provenance prior to starting the sale and you shouldn't expect your customers to do the homework for you. You should represent both sides of the deal to one degree or another, rather than just protect the "seller". Unfortunately, you don't consistenly do your homework. Plain and Simple. In fact you have admitted to people at times that you often don't ask many questions, whether to get the gig or give yourself plausible ignorance as protection I don't know.

Instead you look the other way on inconvenient details, put "unshakeable" faith in your sellers, over pitch the product to one degree or another and then make the sale.

If things go south, well by all accounts you do refund the money but you crab on the details of how/when and by whom you got misled. Will you refund wallet owners? I'm sure you will if asked because you do indeed seem committed to backing your own guarranty. (In fact I'm fairly sure that if homeowrk had been done, it would probably be discovered that the ID you modeled yours from was a unused, production made, discard that didn't pass Ridley's muster and was then gifted to someone or another.) If pressed for explaination though, you dodge and avoid any real answer and if pressed further, you then shout "Why do you hate me"?.?

You billed the wallet set as used in a specific scene and clearly it doesn't match. You've been asked for explaination repeatedly and have not answered that question directly yet. Instead you immediately went on a sales pitch of "Well my secret source is immaculate so trust me, it was used somewhere in BR". As a broker, why don't you know the specifics to the best of your ability? Why has Spinner44 been the one doing YOUR Homework in tracking down and speaking to production folks to get authentication? Why haven't you been the one posting the emails with these people, backing up your story? Why don't you have a file on every item you broker with whatever proof of provenance you can obtain stored inside? Having the same lame proof of "my seller is above reproach" in the file of each prop you've brokered or replicated is why you feel this heat yet again. You want the questions to stop? Then provide the proof or admit you have no proof.

It is that simple...

No pitchforks, mobs or bans required, just direct answers to direct questions.
 
<div class='quotetop'>(neosporing @ Sep 9 2006, 07:27 PM) [snapback]1316788[/snapback]</div>
i missed something. please pardon my ignorance. What is a NDA? In my mind, it stands for 'non-disclosure agreement.' But after that last post, i'm guessing it means something different here?

thanks
[/b]

Nope it means just that, On the sale of said items you had to agree to a bogus "agreement" in which Phil claimed ownership to the copyright of said items and granted you permission to only look at it within your home and that was itm nothing more... OK maybe you could touch it... The agreement stated that you were not allowed and wouldn't allow anyone to replicated it in any form including photos, detailed drawings. measurements blah blah blah... The agreement also forbid the transfer of item to another party, blah blah blah... All under the fake and bogus threat of legal action as the copyright owner of the items, blah blah blah...

It was nothing more then a tool to intimidate the buyers, a tool that held no water... Ironic in the fact that Phil's assertion to be the legal copyright owner of said items by implication of legal action under Copyright laws is probably the only real actionable part of the document...
 
I've been doing some additional research, and I'm not convinced that the ID in the Deckard Wallet Project isn't close to correct or even correct.

Here's a screencap I took from my newly-acquired re-mastered DVD. I increased its size, but applied no filters of any kind to the image. Clearly, the triskelion-like mark is quite visible. I was surprised to not see it in earlier captures, as this symbol has an important meaning:

[attachmentid=11975]


Also, the image is still highly pixilated, but upon very close inspection, the bar underneath the Police 995 doesn't look completely solid.

I challenge everyone to get this DVD and check it out (I bought two tonight). Juno's caps don't exactly add up.

Phil
 
Actually, one of the caps (that I did not take) is very close to the one you have. Here they are all cut and pasted together:
237639728_36592ff2fc_o.jpg
 
<div class='quotetop'>(philippes @ Sep 9 2006, 09:27 PM) [snapback]1316834[/snapback]</div>
Here's a screencap I took from my newly-acquired re-mastered DVD. I increased its size, but applied no filters of any kind to the image. Clearly, the triskelion-like mark is quite visible. I was surprised to not see it in earlier captures, as this symbol has an important meaning:
<div align="center">
br_id_remas_01.jpg
[/b][/quote]

The Worldcon ID will give you the same appearance if you reduce it and blur it just slightly. Also, as Tif has shown, if you take the HI-DEF verion and you simply adjust the levels in photoshop (as she later did), you can see clearly that the " triskelion-like mark" was just an optical illusion due to the 3 larger geometric shapes used in the Worldcon ID and that there is a triangular design that looks like the one on the Worldcon ID above the photo. That's why she suggested (but I don't necessarily agree) that it looks like someone guessed at what the design should look like by viewing the screencaps but didn't realize that there was some visual information that wasn't apparent.

<div class='quotetop'></div>
Also, the image is still highly pixilated, but upon very close inspection, the bar underneath the Police 995 doesn't look completely solid.

I challenge everyone to get this DVD and check it out (I bought two tonight). Juno's caps don't exactly add up.
[/b]

Juno's caps are from a higher definition transfer. Not the DVD. In the DVD, without any type of enhancement it's hard to tell anything. Even the older DVD transfer with the levels adjusted shows a clearer picture of the features of the ID, IMO.

[image]http://img372.imageshack.us/img372/3852/capbrightnb1.jpg[/image]

Though, one thing is for sure. There are features of the "wallet set" ID that are also a part of the Worldcon ID that were not known before, so even if I disagree the piece in question is the "Zhora" ID, it's quite possible it's another screen-used ID (though screen-caps likely can't answer that question because the scene is so dark). Jason brought up an interesting observation (that I also noticed before) about how the ID slides under the clear plastic when Deckard moves the wallet in the scene where Deckard calls Racheal. Either the ID has heft, or the wallet is completely empty (but stretched out) and a thin card is sliding around. Given that we know that there were hard wedge-type card ID's made for production (even without the wallet set, the V ID Jason discovered pretty much proves that) I'd be willing to accept a theory that the ID in that scene might have been different than the one in the "Zhora" scene.

:)
 
Here are some caomparrisons I did.

The first 4 images are screencaps. The 5th photo is of the one Karl posted and the 6th one is of Phil's.

[attachmentid=11976]


1.) What my eyes see in the first photo is the RFID. The diamond shape is clearly there just like in photo 5.
Phil's has a dark spot but it doesn't have the angles or the black diamond shape.

2.) The negative space between the L and the A on Phil's ID makes a distinct black spot. There is also a smaller one below the P. On the screencap, there is no such black mark.

3.) The photo isn't correct. The ID photo doesn't have the same hair line. Also the torso is shorter on Phil's.

4.) The triskelion-like mark that Phil mentions is also created by the Original Circular mark when shrunk down. The one on Karl's pic is almost a direct match to the screencap.

FB
 
<div class='quotetop'></div>
3.) The photo isn't correct. The ID photo doesn't have the same hair line. Also the torso is shorter on Phil's.

4.) The triskelion-like mark that Phil mentions is also created by the Original Circular mark when shrunk down. The one on Karl's pic is almost a direct match to the screencap.[/b]

That I believe is the most obvious, Ford's shoulder in EVERY screen cap including Phil's shows it about mid way up the "triskelion thing" not nearly as low as on the replica...

And mere coincidence that the original circular mark when shrunk down appears nearly identical to the scren caps?
 
just to clarify, those higher resolution screencaps were taken by me from the HD copy of blade runner that i have. the native resolution of each screengrab was 1920x1080, as that is the resolution of a 1080i movie, and all i did was crop them down and place them all into one image. i just wanted to have something better to do comparisons from, as there is over 4 times as much image data in each HD cap as opposed to regular dvd caps (even the remastered version).

and i posted it with the intention that it was free for anyones use.
 
<div class='quotetop'>(aliensarchive @ Sep 9 2006, 11:15 PM) [snapback]1316895[/snapback]</div>
Whoever bought that prop for $40k is in for quite a shock.

Maybe it will be in the next Profiles auction.
[/b]
The current new owner of the wallet is aware of the questions surrounding the ID in his set and he's extremely happy with it nonetheless.

My sponsor just contacted me to tell me this.

Phil
 
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