Behind the scenes discipline

[defstartrooper]

Shocker :unsure

 

[Darkknight0667]

I sent a PM to RPF staff, and that's gotten the ignore treatment as well.

Wow, and their communication skills are usually so good. :unsure Makes me long for the days when Lonnie was their designated spokesman. Sure the responses held as much water as a colander, but at least you got a response.

 

[Treadwell]

One thing is for sure this thread is being ignored, and even when and if there is an official reply it will be twisted and spun so far out of context it won't bring any conclusion...

We're damned either way, then, huh?


Anyway, big Hanlon's Razor effect here, folks: only just now have we been alerted to this thread. We've been spread thin of late and have totally dropped the ball in due diligence of things like checking this forum or the RPF Staff account (which is not used as anyone's regular login--it's something we all try to check periodically but it's very easy to forget). Not excuses, just being honest with ya. So, yeah, (talking-to-dog voice) bad mods, very very bad mods. :redface

(some will have fun quoting that line...enjoy.)

Questions about the infraction point system can be answered if one just read the Code of Conduct that you claimed to have done when you registered at the forum. It's available by clicking on the "FAQ" button at the top of the forum. (They're called "Steps", not "infraction points" in the CoC because it was written before we moved to Invision software, which uses that term instead, but the concept is the same.)


So. Private or public discipline. Well, my take on it has been that it's a private matter. I've tended to keep it behind the scenes simply out of courtesy and respect for the recipient. I wouldn't enjoy being publicly embarrassed every time someone had to correct me. One time my boss blew up at me in front of everyone and that pissed me off far more than the reprimand itself, and I seriously questioned whether I should keep the job. That kind of thing.

Plus, my feeling is that if there were an announcement forum listing infractions given, it would by definition, when looking at the main forum menu, give the impression that moderator smackdowns are of equal interest and importance to the entire board as Props or Costumes or Models, etc. Suggesting that that discipline is part of why we're here. Which is of course not the case. We're all here for the hobby.

That's just my view on it, but I'm interested in ya'll's thoughts. It's an interesting topic for discussion.

As for "Judge Judy" statements, I think Juno has a point. Those things do bug me in other contexts. Perhaps we could be more utilitarian when closing threads, simply stating "thread closed due to violation of Part X of the CoC" or something like that.


As for having a discussion forum about infractions and bannings, etc...we had that once (before my tenure, I might add) and it consumed a highly disproportionate amount of moderator time, and, frankly, that of the membership as well. We're here to talk about props, etc, and, again, it's really putting the cart before the horse to devote more attention talking about running the board rather than talking about the hobby itself.

My personal view, which goes back to before I was a mod, that among some of the RPF membership is the biggest sense of entitlement of all the board memberships to which I belong. Only here do people want to have a say in every little thing, and demand explanations for every administrative decision. On every other board I'm on, there is nowhere near the drama concerning who's in trouble for what and who should be able to come back and why can't we do this, etc etc. Stuff happens, it ends, and people just go on with discussing the subject matter. But not here. I still don't know why.

And, finally, am I getting this right? There are a few of you who would like to form a self-appointed oversight committee over staff decisions? Woo-hoo, let's add a level of bureaucracy! Let's spend more time on meta discussions instead of props!

This. Is. A. Hobby.

These are my personal views and is not necessarily an official stance of the RPF administration.


As for Mycroft Holmes, he was personally PMed several times about his behavior in the thread, and if he wasn't specified by name in the public warnings posted by staff in thread itself, what, did he think they didn't apply to him? That he only had to behave himself if specifically told to by name in public (PMs not counting for anything, I guess)?

As I stated previously, I take full responsibility for the misrepresentation of the "reporting to the studios" thing, but, again, there had already been a quorum among the staff about banning him for his behavior--the (perceived) other thing was just so much worse, that that was the main reason given publicly when the banning took place. But as far as the vote was, he was already gone before that (incorrectly interpreted) information came to light. I even retabled the banning with the staff after the mistake was discovered, just to be sure. Everyone was sure.

There will be those who won't believe that, and they are welcome to go on thinking so.

Ya know why banned members can't come back? Because you have to pull a LOT of crap to get banned here. Every person that's been banned earned it long before it actually took place. There is a LOT of cushion there. If we're wrong about one out of ten things they pull, it doesn't turn them from sinner to saint. Banning discussions are taken seriously and bans are not handed out like cookies. Members who can discuss the hobby like a mature adult do not get banned. So when a banned member wants back in, it's like, um, no, who wants more headaches?

Talking about openness, perhaps I should post the numerous PMs of thanks I recieved about the Microft banning?

 

[defstartrooper]

Sorry i still dont get the Mycroft thing the way the banned members thread reads to me is like this.

Mycroft was to be disciplined and would have been issued an infraction point for trolling,but because of the other supposed offence he was banned so the trolling thing didn't make any difference.
The next post then goes on to explain the banning offence was proved to be incorrect but the trolling offence has now escalated from earning an ifraction point to a complete ban.

That to me reads as moving the goalposts, if he deserved to be banned is one arguement and one i don't want to get into, but i think it's disturbing that seemingly the staff have moved the goalposts to either suit their needs or to save face over their own mistake.

 

[Bar]

That to me reads as moving the goalposts, if he deserved to be banned is one arguement and one i don't want to get into, but i think it's disturbing that seemingly the staff have moved the goalposts to either suit their needs or to save face over their own mistake.

And he was "due to be banned" anyway?
Trolling... We have truly evicted a master criminal from our midst...
Harrumph...

 

[gnrlotto]

So. Private or public discipline. Well, my take on it has been that it's a private matter. I've tended to keep it behind the scenes simply out of courtesy and respect for the recipient. I wouldn't enjoy being publicly embarrassed every time someone had to correct me. One time my boss blew up at me in front of everyone and that pissed me off far more than the reprimand itself, and I seriously questioned whether I should keep the job. That kind of thing.

This is only when giving out points, correct?

 

[Archie Opteryx]

This is only when giving out points, correct?

That question sounds like a set up, to me :lol

 

[gnrlotto]

That question sounds like a set up, to me :lol

Well, I haven't gotten any points so far as I can tell (and no PMs, though I'm sure to get one now) but I have gotten called out plenty of times, had people follow my apparently call-out worthy behavior with things like outright insults and other nastiness, ask for fairness on my behalf, and then received a milquetoast, "Everyone knock it off, let's get on topic," response from the mod. So it's a fair question if one is going to brag so highly on their propriety.:lol :confused

 

[juno]

Firstly, thank you for taking the time to write a well-thought out response. Secondly, I understand the sarcasm that is in your post. I’ll ignore it; I know it’s not easy to reply when feeling attacked. I also understand that the lack of timeliness in reply was just an oversight – yes, perception is reality, but you gave (what I think) is a valid reason for not replying sooner.

I have read the Code of Conduct, my question was not, “what is this infraction point thing,” my question was: is this behind-the-scenes discipline a good thing? I think all the problems you’ve mentioned here: from over-interest in how the board is run, to questions of banning, would be solved with transparency. You say, being publicly embarrassed made you made – I say, being publicly embarrassed should make you not do it again. If you storm off pissed and quit the job, who does that hurt in the end? (And it certainly prevents you from doing that embarrassing behavior again.) I think being called out for being an ass by your peers is a lot easier to accept than getting an infraction point. Take, for example, my infraction point for “baiting” Ortiz34: I was pointing out what I deemed to be an inappropriate behavior on Ortiz’ part. Other people chimed in. The thread would have eventually run its course – or not. If his behavior (or mine) was inappropriate, you have to assume people would say something. You posted in the thread about ganging up on a member. That was enough to make me stop because it made you uncomfortable. Perhaps someone else it wouldn’t have been, but I’d like to think that there are enough adults on here that it would have eventually run its course. Now, I’m not saying there shouldn’t be banning; does anyone disagree with the ban of that crazy guy Phil from many years ago? There are appropriate times and places for everything.

My personal view, which goes back to before I was a mod, that among some of the RPF membership is the biggest sense of entitlement of all the board memberships to which I belong. Only here do people want to have a say in every little thing, and demand explanations for every administrative decision. On every other board I'm on, there is nowhere near the drama concerning who's in trouble for what and who should be able to come back and why can't we do this, etc etc. Stuff happens, it ends, and people just go on with discussing the subject matter. But not here. I still don't know why.

I’ve been a member of the RPF since 1999 (I don’t know why my date is incorrect, I think I didn’t register during one of the many switcharoos), so yeah, I feel a sense of entitlement. Every member of this board should feel one – they make this board happen. If it weren’t for the membership, it would be nothing. I was a mod on a much larger forum (the Leaky Cauldron), and you’re right, this board IS drama.

I can say that it has never been a more unfun place than today. I used to look forward to visiting the RPF – even to read threads on things I wasn’t interested in. The number of thou-shalt-not-be-nameds and subjects-not-to-be-discussed has grown in proportion to the membership. Why does AA need to be off-limits? Why can’t I say jhyphen or Durasteel?
I know what you're thinking: "If it's so unfun, why don’t you pack your bags and leave?" Why not? Because of the occasional diamonds in the rough: The Mantis show-off threads, the Michigan and Indy prop parties, Gnrlotto’s corner displays, RelicMaker’s phenomenal recreations, the discovery of the Worldcon Blaster and the Obi Wan saber parts, and more. I don’t leave because my hobby is replica props, and I’ll take whatever scraps of it I can.

There are so many places to point the finger of blame (and yes, there’s definitely one pointing at me) when it comes to the dysfunction of the forum, and I would never claim to be able to fix everything, but I do believe transparency amongst the leadership would eliminate much of the questioning you see of your decisions.

 

[OldKen]

Juno, first off for whatever reason I have not recieved Any PMs from you since the last one about your fairytales fiasco... I have always tried to keep open and communicate with you... right? Im still a noob as far as the RPF mod team but let me tell you, Its not fun, its not a bragging rights or the power trip that people sometimes suspect that it is. Its a few people trying to hold this place together while being constantly picked apart talked down to and blamed for everything that doesnt smell like roses.

Why are there always people comming on board? Because there are always people stepping down... why?

Because of threads like this.

I understand everyones concerns and curiousity about the "behind the scenes" goings on... but really its just a few people who are constantly so busy trying to get each others backs, that they rarely have time to do much else!

I dont get paid, and do have an outside life as does everyone else on here.

And back to your fairytales issue... You never even got back to me about it do you realise how many people ask us everyday to take care of there personal problems? (did I mention I aint gettin paid?)

Now does that mean that I cared to try and help NO! But I tell you just reading some of this stuff makes me Ill.

I tell you that every single one of the people on this staff love this place and do the best they can to try and help people and keep things civil and descrete when a problem does arrive (every singele day!) And all we get for it is riddicule and heartache.

You wanna talk about behind the scenes? Lets talk about all the cliqs on here... all the gangs of people that just wait for the opportunity to pounce on others be it staff or other memebers or even groups of members. People need to understand... you think its not fun to be a member anymore? Try being blamed for it... see how much fun that is!

Weeeeeeeee!!!

 

[Archie Opteryx]

Why are there always people comming on board? Because there are always people stepping down... why?

Because of threads like this.

I'm at a loss for words.

 

[defstartrooper]

Who else should members ask about or comment about how the forum is run if not to the ones running it ?

 

[juno]

The PM I sent was to the RPF staff. I’d assumed it was honestly sent to all the admins – I didn’t realize it was an account that required a login. And you are correct; you have always been very open in your communication with me.

As to the Jasmine / Fairytales situation, this is the last PM I have from you:

From : OldKen
To : juno
Date : 2007-10-05 17:27
Title : Re: Favor?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I wil try!

Did I miss one? Honestly, I figured she hadn’t gotten back to you, but I also assumed (rightly so, it sounds like) you’d contacted her. (And I have not yet gone to her county to file my small claims case.)

I wouldn’t imagine being a mod is fun, but I would imagine you’d generate a lot more followership if people knew what was going on. I can’t sympathize with you if I have no common ground on which to sympathize.

“Why are there always people comming on board? Because there are always people stepping down... why?

Because of threads like this.”

I’m not quite sure how to take this. I can understand your frustration with the membership; however, do you think the post you just made is civil? Are you saying that I should just accept everything that happens because . . . well I don’t know what the because would be. I’m not trying to get you or any other mod. I’m trying to improve the forum (and I ain’t getting’ paid either).

I do not doubt for one second you or anyone else’s love of the hobby. And again, it’s hard for me to have compassion for moderators' plight when I can’t see SOME of what’s happening.

 

[OldKen]

I'm at a loss for words.

So am I.

Did you read the whole post or just skim for what you could use against me? :unsure
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am currantly sick as a dog (probably first steps of the flu) and probably not the best time for me to try and make any sense...

I just wish that more people had some understanding that there isnt some big conspiricy, or big headed rule with an iron fist mentality.

There is so much the staff has to deal with, that after reading all the negative posts it just really makes you want to walk away.

Havent others went on to make there own paradise non-RPF prop forums?

How did that work out?

I agree that there are some old school rules that could stand changing... in fact all the staff think so.

And EVERYONE is open to suggestions!!!

But in the manner of bashing the staff as a whole untill something is done?

What part of that seems like it would be good for all? When you want a law passed do you bring it up to your congressman or throw molitov coctails?

There are some serious conspiracy theorists here... for instance you really think that we sat and watched this thread and didnt say anything? Discussing the punishment for all? You think we cant admit human error?

I just now saw it.

Again, I think that there are alot of things that should be discussed and changed/fixed. But not with torches and pitchforks!!! :unsure

As a united community.

Can the staff force that to be?

No.

Would we want to if we could?

NO!

The power to make it better is in the hands of all.

I suggest using a bit more understanding AND tact.

Notice I said I didnt recieve Junos PM to the staff... Hrrm... could it be that there are still hiccups in the system? (no its surely the work of the diabolical staff!)

Seriuosly please... EVERYONE.

Lets try and make this a better place.

Let go of your hate.

Quit trying to place blame, and try and help find a solution to the problems that arise.

Let me also say. IVE NEVER BANNED ANYONE. Never even givin a PIP. I try and be a helping hand and voice of reason. And where has that gotten me?

Here, now. :cry

LOL!

Seriously though, from the bottom of my heart. I love this place. I love the talent that people like Juno posess and share with the community.

Why cant we work together?

Lets make this place what it could be, what it SHOULD be. Lets try and find common ground, and try and be understanding that what is good for one isnt good for all. So sometimes we cant all get what we want.

Im willing to do whatever I can. And I know the rest of the staff is. But it sure would be nice to do it without all the negativity.

Im seriously dizzy, I have a fever and am sweating as I type this.

sincerely, hoping to make a better tomorrow for all.

Ken

 

[OldKen]

The PM I sent was to the RPF staff. I’d assumed it was honestly sent to all the admins – I didn’t realize it was an account that required a login. And you are correct; you have always been very open in your communication with me.

As to the Jasmine / Fairytales situation, this is the last PM I have from you:
Did I miss one? Honestly, I figured she hadn’t gotten back to you, but I also assumed (rightly so, it sounds like) you’d contacted her. (And I have not yet gone to her county to file my small claims case.)

I wouldn’t imagine being a mod is fun, but I would imagine you’d generate a lot more followership if people knew what was going on. I can’t sympathize with you if I have no common ground on which to sympathize.



I’m not quite sure how to take this. I can understand your frustration with the membership; however, do you think the post you just made is civil? Are you saying that I should just accept everything that happens because . . . well I don’t know what the because would be. I’m not trying to get you or any other mod. I’m trying to improve the forum (and I ain’t getting’ paid either).

I do not doubt for one second you or anyone else’s love of the hobby. And again, it’s hard for me to have compassion for moderators' plight when I can’t see SOME of what’s happening.

That was a good post.

please try and wade through the 20 page book I just wrote.

And no I never heard back from that... person. :angry Since she fixed the other peoblem she had... yeah I assumed too much myself. :$ Sorry about that.

I admitted I was wrong!

I really do think that YOU are making some very valid points. But I also think you greatly OVER estimate the behind the scenes stuff... there really isnt that much to know.

But about the infractions being made public... You really would want your little thing to have maybe made you look bad?

I think that this discussion needs more... discussion cause sometimes people DO need to be publicly punished, your right. But I also can see how that would lead to more THE STAFF IS SO HORIBLE they ran my name through the mud and all I did was XXXXXX...

But thank you seriously for the civil response Juno Ive always liked how you have fire and passion but your also usually very reasonable.

 

[Archie Opteryx]

So am I.

Did you read the whole post or just skim for what you could use against me? :unsure

I read the whole post, and this point is what impressed me most, but...

Im seriously dizzy, I have a fever and am sweating as I type this.

Get back to bed Ken, you need to rest. There are other mods that can address people's concerns in this thread. Heck, it took three weeks for one to respond. It's not like it's urgent or something, right

 

[OldKen]

I read the whole post, and this point is what impressed me most, but...



Get back to bed Ken, you need to rest. There are other mods that can address people's concerns in this thread. Heck, it took three weeks for one to respond. It's not like it's urgent or something, right

Im too ill to get if thats sincere or not... but I hope so.

Just know that I do take it a bit personally when people feel that none of us care or are doing anything or are willing to listen when I feel that I really am trying and I believe in this staff.

I hope that one day that all will see what I see, and that people will one day all work together (what am I MLK of props? LOL!!!)

Seriously I didnt get the PM, and we missed this thread. Human error.

Im going to go pass back out.

Peace & Love

Ken

 

[Archie Opteryx]

Im too ill to get if thats sincere or not... but I hope so.

It was sincere. Get better, man.

 

[Birdie]

So none of the mods are aware of the 'new posts' button that shows us which threads are active across all forums?

 

[Treadwell]

Good point. Myself, I never use it because there's always active threads everywhere! But yeah, using that or just being sure to scroll down on the main page to see if there's activity in the Suggestions forum is definitely something we should have been more diligent about, and hopefully will be from now on.