AVATAR 2: THE WAY OF WATER (2022)

[CT1138]

At first I didn’t understand this one.
Had to think about it.
Is this the take on the similarities?:

Recon mission, turns into rescue mission, turns into one woman/man wrecking crew on the bad guys.

Yes, though I'm actually parroting somebody else's observation. To be fair to Cameron, he wrote both movies at the same time, so some crossover is not unexpected. I believe Cameron has stated he's also noticed the similarities when looking back at the two.

Cameron is a film maker who's aware of his faults, and I do respect that of him. Like the aforementioned infamous rages, I think he's aware that he compensates for his weak storytelling with dazzling special effects. Unfortunately, I don't think he knows how to fix the latter.

 

[Malibu139]

Ok Yes, though I'm actually parroting somebody else's observation.

Ok, I was just trying to understand your post that Aliens and Rambo are effectively the same story.

 

[CT1138]

I know he wrote both- as well as the Terminator- at the same time.

I’m trying to understand your post that Aliens and Rambo are effectively the same story. Do you think they are or does someone else?

Parroting: to repeat exactly what someone else says, without understanding it or thinking about its meaning

Can you explain the similarities without parroting?

Also T2 was not a repeat of the first movie. It’s not without issues but it was not a repeat . I do understand if you are parroting it would seem that way though.

Somebody else pointed out the similarities between Aliens and Rambo II, and I kinda agreed. They feel like more separate movies, though I could see the similarities once pointed out. I'd have to find the article, but there's several out there on the subject.

As for Terminator 2 and 1, T2 is probably one of the most repetitive sequels out there next to Evil Dead 2.
-2 arrive from the future, one to save Connor, the other to kill 'em. One immediately beats up a bunch of degenerates (a bunch of thugs in T1, a bunch of bikers in T2) and the other attacks a cop.
-Cut to Connor's daily life with the future bois stalking them in the background.
-Terminator attacks Connor in public (Tech Noir/the mall), but the scene is shot to fake us out so we don't know who is there to protect or kill 'em.
-Vehicular chase ensues
-Connor and the Good Guy get away and Good Guy explains context to Connor
-Prison break scene (this is switched to before the seedy location hide out in T2)
-Fugitives hide out in a seedy location (seedy motel in T1, abandoned auto garage in T2)
-Cops eventually catch up to fugitives, Terminator wipes them out in a volley of bullets.
-Second vehicle chase occurs where Terminator is badly damaged (removal of skin in T1, T-1000 becomes glitchy in T2 though SE version only)
-Terminator and Good Guy face off in industrial setting where Good Guy is mortally wounded and Terminator is destroyed.

The two are almost note for note the same, with the major difference between the two being that T2 has a lot higher production values. And this is coming from a guy who prefers T2. Cameron's storytelling skills have always left something to be desired while this fault is compensated for with big budget special effects. Avatar is no exception. And again, that's coming from somebody who likes those movies, too.

 

[Malibu139]

CT1138 I edited the other post earlier, not sure where that came from sorry about that, bad day ….

Also thanks for the detailed and insightful response , I stand corrected,

Also I was waaaay wrong about the box office on Avatar2 a couple weeks back. Lol

 

[CT1138]

It's fine. I thought there were some valid points there worth responding to, so I pasted them back in from the alert email.

 

[batguy]

T2 was definitely structured like T1, but it was done so well and the differences were so pivotal that I don't think it deserves to be called repetitive.

Those movies were also 7 years apart with a lot of different circumstances. SFX, the budget, Arnold's career, Cameron's clout, etc.

'Terminator' was a rare franchise that was completed in two movies. Not one, not three, not open-ended. I think the fact that it's so unusual contributes to Hollywood's reluctance to leave the franchise alone now.

 

[CessnaDriver]

I always thought ALIENS had the same exact ending as ALIEN.

Everything is so boned and few left, countdown to self destruct, an innocent previously lost and in peril (Jones/Newt) needing rescue, the old over-used even then.. baddie beaten fake out with the false safe ending, surprise! booga booga I'm still here, battle with an improvised weapon, tossed out the airlock, and the actual safe ending. Bonus using an egg chamber along the way, which of course was originally in ALIEN and cut out.

Did he disguise it well? Yeah, did I realize it when I watched it in 86? Yeah.

 

[yaris]

So I saw it and JC got my money, but I wouldn't see it again.

Spoiler ahead....

It's basically the same as the first Avatar...except with kids....seriously lame that the marine colonel gets to live again. No doubt in A3 he will come back and fully understand what it means...being blue/having kids etc....yawn.

The 3D is reasonably good, but it's the 3 hour story that is rehashed from the first that undermines it.

These films are roller coaster rides and they achieve that goal...so I s'pose it worked out well for me and JC.....

Eye candy at best...lazy story telling at worst.

 

[Bigdaddy]

'Terminator' was a rare franchise that was completed in two movies. Not one, not three, not open-ended. I think the fact that it's so unusual contributes to Hollywood's reluctance to leave the franchise alone now.

Terminator is a self contained story that doesn't need a sequel at all. As much as I enjoy T2 it weakens the first movie and opens the story to even more paradox.
That being said it's a great flick and a good (but unnecessary) sequel.

 

[CT1138]

The 3D is reasonably good, but it's the 3 hour story that is rehashed from the first that undermines it.

Actually, I didn't think the 3D was as good as the first. It didn't pop quite as well, and felt more like I was watching a feature length holographic card vs the immersion that I felt from the first movie where I instinctively moved to whack leaves from falling in my face.

Another criticism I had is that I think the film's score suffered from the loss of James Horner. The musical cues and their use were all too similar. I just didn't feel as much imagination and individuality put into this soundtrack as was in the first. Too much reusing of themes.

 

[Too Much Garlic]

Terminator is a self contained story that doesn't need a sequel at all. As much as I enjoy T2 it weakens the first movie and opens the story to even more paradox.
That being said it's a great flick and a good (but unnecessary) sequel.

Absolutely agree with this.

The only sequel that made sense after the first one was a future war movie - r-rated horror/thriller style. What Reese talks about could easily be a 3 hour movie following key events and then ending with the horror that are the infiltrators that weren't there in the beginning.

 

[yaris]

Terminator is a self contained story that doesn't need a sequel at all. As much as I enjoy T2 it weakens the first movie and opens the story to even more paradox.
That being said it's a great flick and a good (but unnecessary) sequel.

You could say the same about Aliens, but JC adds a lot of value to both franchises before others ruined them.

Actually, I didn't think the 3D was as good as the first. It didn't pop quite as well, and felt more like I was watching a feature length holographic card vs the immersion that I felt from the first movie where I instinctively moved to whack leaves from falling in my face.

Another criticism I had is that I think the film's score suffered from the loss of James Horner. The musical cues and their use were all too similar. I just didn't feel as much imagination and individuality put into this soundtrack as was in the first. Too much reusing of themes.

For my eyes the 3D is good, but my eyes are a bit old and tired, so not as sharp as others seemed to have found it. My kids thought it was excellent using their 'young' eyes....

The score IMHO had Horner written all over it, many times it would start out with a Titanic catch line then change to be something else, but Horner's influence is there. They've worked together, both composers, so I suppose that's natural.

It's a great ride, spoiled by weak story and being too long.

 

[Bigdaddy]

You could say the same about Aliens, but JC adds a lot of value to both franchises before others ruined them.

Well aliens certainly isn't necessary sequel, Alien is a perfectly good stand alone story. The biggest difference story wise is the time travel, T2 muddies things up while Terminator actually wraps up the time loop quite nicely as a stand alone. Aliens doesn't undo the ending to Alien, if anything it enriches the story rather than reconning it.

 

[yaris]

Well aliens certainly isn't necessary sequel, Alien is a perfectly good stand alone story. The biggest difference story wise is the time travel, T2 muddies things up while Terminator actually wraps up the time loop quite nicely as a stand alone. Aliens doesn't undo the ending to Alien, if anything it enriches the story rather than reconning it.

We're off topic here, but fundamentally time travel movies are inherently dumb. They don't work as any type of cohesive story telling, because they never make sense. T2 works because it's a very cool ride, once you forget the fact that of course none of it makes sense, then it can be enjoyed. T1 is just 'as bad' as T2 from a story telling perspective, but still a fun ride.

The Avatar movies are the same type of movie. Ordinary story telling, but a very (visually) cool ride. I would never see A1 or A2 again, I did the ride, thanks, but that's enough. Having said that, I will definitely go to A3 - A27.... ...I'm sure the story's will just as ordinary, but still worth the ride.

Cameron's a smart cookie, he knows the story doesn't have to be that great...the ride itself is where the money is....

 

[CT1138]

You could say the same about Aliens, but JC adds a lot of value to both franchises before others ruined them.

For my eyes the 3D is good, but my eyes are a bit old and tired, so not as sharp as others seemed to have found it. My kids thought it was excellent using their 'young' eyes....

The score IMHO had Horner written all over it, many times it would start out with a Titanic catch line then change to be something else, but Horner's influence is there. They've worked together, both composers, so I suppose that's natural.

It's a great ride, spoiled by weak story and being too long.

Another thing about the 3D is I felt the glasses darkened and faded the colors of the movie. When I popped the glasses up to compare, the colors seemed much more vibrant. Gonna see it again tomorrow without the 3D to be sure, though.

The thing about the score was that's just it: it was TOO Horner. Too many of Horner's themes were reused in this one to the point where I felt like they were just laying the first movie's OST over this movie, and mixing some Titanic in for padding. I know it's Horner's style to heavily reuse themes, but I was really looking forward to hearing more original compositions.

 

[batguy]

 

[robstyle]

So, back to avatar talk.

Contracts for crew are going out to start back up soon. Not sure if that's for any pick ups for part three with part four starting up.

 

[batguy]

So, back to avatar talk.

I'm still on-topic. I'm saying 'Avatar' needs time travel.

These are Cameron sci-fi movies. They take place in the distant future. We're all tired of the 'Dances' storylines. Cameron is talking about rebooting 'Terminator' again lately. This, despite him saying several years ago that he could happily spend the rest of his filmmaking career in the 'Avatar' franchise.

Add it up. He's gonna surprise us all with a crossover project.

Picture it: adult John Connor gets transported to Pandora and meets Jake Sully. They turn him into a blue smurf and then send him back to the future-war in the 2000s. He will have extra physical powers beyond normal humans. And the Terminators & HKs won't even be looking for a 9-foot-tall smurf when they search for John Connor.

Next subsequent movie: Blue smurfs save the Titanic!

 

[Bigdaddy]

We're off topic here, but fundamentally time travel movies are inherently dumb. They don't work as any type of cohesive story telling, because they never make sense. T2 works because it's a very cool ride, once you forget the fact that of course none of it makes sense, then it can be enjoyed. T1 is just 'as bad' as T2 from a story telling perspective, but still a fun ride.

I don't want to derail the thread, suffice to say I disagree with your assessment of the story telling in Terminator and T2.

 

[Solo4114]

Everything you guys have said thus far is confirming my instinct to give this one a miss.

This is also the most discussion of Avatar 2 that I've seen since the film released. Other than noting how much money it's made, nobody is talking about the actual film at all, from what I can tell.