Another Question and Hobby Ethics

Discussion in 'Replica Props' started by Boba Debt, Feb 9, 2006.

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  1. Boba Debt

    Boba Debt Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    THEWRAPOFCONS posted a thread to discuss the Lost Virgin Mary statue, it seemed as if he was asking for help identifying it, then a little while later he posted that he had found it and that he was going to offer a repainted and weathered version for $50 -$75


    I posted that I would be interested in an unmodified statue but he never replied.

    I thought $50 was kind of high for this type of prop so I did a Goggle search and the first page contained plenty of places that sold this statue and one place had it listed for $30

    Within a day I had located the wholesaler and I found out that I can buy these at wholesale for $18 plus about $3 each for shipping for each statue.

    I didn't think THE WRAPOFCONS had any desire to offer these in an unmodified condition so last night I posted an interest thread offering the Lost Virgin Mary statue in the Junkyard for $25 as it comes from the factory.

    If you deduct about $2 for PayPal fees and shipping supplies I was going to have a slim $2 profit margin.

    I almost consider this to be an At Cost Project


    The thread was pulled and this was the PM I received:



    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    David,

    THEWRAPOFCONS contacted the staff regarding a possible hijack of his LOST statue project. I've temporarily pulled your thread from the JY until we can review the situation.

    We appreciate your patience while we look into this.

    Lonnie



    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    I almost went off the deep end, how could it be considered inappropriate for a second person to offer a "found" item in a different condition for a lower price?

    MR Dealers compete on a daily basis and there have been parallel runs of machined parts that where reverse engineered from found items (Han Flash Hider and Obi Grenade)


    What made this all more infuriating was that some people posting in the THEWRAPOFCONS thread have advocated the outright recasting of an original statue to save money.


    When I got home today this was what the RPF Staff sent to both of us:



    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I'm sending this PM to both THEWRAPOFCONS and Boba Debt.

    After talking this over with the rest of the staff, this is our decision:

    We put BD's thread back in the JY. We wish BD would have talked with TWOCs to work out something in advance, but he didn't. We're pretty sure if the roles had been reversed, BD would be up in arms about this kind of treatment, too.

    The RPF has always been a free market, and there has always been a competition among sellers. While BD's apparent hijacking of this project is bad form, it is not against any rules that we have in place. Also, apparent price-jacking 2-3 times the cost of a found item (even for a better paintjob), while not against the rules, is also bad form.

    The members will decide with their dollars who they want to do business with.

    If you have any questions, please PM me or one of the other staff.



    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



    Yes, I have a question,

    HAVE YOU LOST YOUR MINDS?



    PS: I have emailed the content of this post to 30 people and I intend to send it to many more, I highly recommend you allow this thread to remain so it can be debated until this issue is resolved.
     
  2. blufive

    blufive Sr Member

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    I'm not sure I'm following the intent of the thread. Upon staff review, your thread was allowed back.

    :)
     
  3. Boba Debt

    Boba Debt Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    The intent of this thread is to figure out why the STAFF thought they had to review my thread.

    PM me your number and I'll give you a call.



     
  4. Macklin

    Macklin Well-Known Member

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    I'd like to know what entails "hijacking a project."

    This board has never self-destructed because two or three members offer up a project at the same time. Why is it an issue now?

    Is there anything at all in the COC about this?

    EDIT: After investigating the COC, no. Nothing even close.
     
  5. TOKI

    TOKI Well-Known Member

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    What I find incredibly disturbing is that the staff has apparently decided what a paint job is worth.

    A member has every right to charge as he pleases for his services without remark from the staff. The consumer will decide through action if the price right.

    Very bad form. VERY.

    Arthur
     
  6. rocketeer25

    rocketeer25 Sr Member

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    TWOC sent the staff a PM complaining that you had hijacked his project after participating in his research thread.

    I temporarily pulled your JY thread until the rest of the staff could look over the situation and figure out what was going on. I told you in a PM that I was temporarily moving your thread.

    I put your thread back today after the rest of the mods had a chance to look over the situation. We all agreed that your moving in on TWOC's project was bad form, but that since he was marking up the price on a found item (even if he was going to be making some changes to it), that in the end the membership would vote with their $$ on what they thought was the right thing to do. Free market and all that...

    It turns out that TWOC stated in his original thread that he would be willing to sell the unmodified statues as well. He stated that in post #26 of his thread.

    http://www.rpf.invisionzone.com/index.php?...%20statue&st=20

    He also states that he hadn't nailed down a price yet. I guess that doesn't matter...

    In the end, you should have communicated with TWOC if you were interested in doing a run of these statues. It would have saved everyone some hassle...

    My personal preference is that on found items like this... a link should be posted to the vendor or manufacturer. Let members get it right from the source, unless a deal can be brokered to get a discount by buying in bulk. But thats just my way of looking at it.

    In the end, a little tact and communication from Boba Debt would have gone a long way in diffusing a relatively simple matter. :rolleyes
     
  7. Prop Runner

    Prop Runner Sr Member

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    Maybe I'm not reading the timeline right, but because THE WRAPOFCONS didn't respond to you within 24-48 hours, you assumed he had no intention of selling unmodified statues, and without giving him the courtesy of first right of refusal, you unilaterally went ahead with your sale thread.

    Since THE WRAPOFCONS' statues are repainted and weathered, I wouldn't go so far as calling your offer a hijack, but I'd venture that there was some potential stepping on toes. Still, shame on the staff for unilaterally pulling David's thread before contacting him for clarifications.

    And yes, THE WRAPOFCONS can charge as much as he likes for paint jobs, but don't cry foul when somebody else offers a found item at cost.

    My call:

    Bobadebt - :thumbsup :thumbsdown
    THE WRAPOFCONS - :thumbsup :thumbsdown
    Staff - :thumbsdown

    Well, you DID ask for feedback. ;)

    - Gabe
     
  8. TOKI

    TOKI Well-Known Member

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    From the staffs own Junkyard guidelines:


    Price Bashing
    Please respect our fellow members' right to ask whatever price they like for an item and conduct yourself accordingly.


    Seems the staff cannot even follow their own rules.

    Are you guys going to issue yourself a "first warning"

    This would be the appropriate step in "behaviour modification by choice."

    Arthur
     
  9. mez7

    mez7 Sr Member

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    so just how is offering a found item for a more reasonable price hijacking a project?

    i wouldnt mind hearing a definition of hijiacking a project, because i dont really understand why anyones thread would be pulled for simply offering a found item someone else is also offering, more reasonable price or not,

    i just dont understand why a review was even needed?
     
  10. exoray

    exoray Master Member

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    Yeah WTF, so now selling a found part below the cost of another member is something the staff feels they need to investigate and review??? It's a found part...

    So much for a free marketplace...
     
  11. Boba Debt

    Boba Debt Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Please define "Bad Form"

    Are all people supposed to contact other RPF members before they decide to offer a similar product.

    If I wanted to sell MR Props, would I have to give Dave the Bookie and Phantom Collectables a heads up?

    Why is this an issue now when it HAS NEVER BEEN AN ISSUE IN THE PAST.

    In fact, in the past when a person whined about someone offering the same item they got the "it's a free market place" speech

    I also want to know why the staff has not voiced a dissenting opinion about the out right avocation of recasting an original statue?

    And I concur, who are you (the RPF Staff) to judge TWOCs on what he should and shouldn't charge for his work?

    BTW: I somehow missed post 26, if he wants to sell unpainted Statues for $25 I will gladly step aside.
     
  12. Gary Weaver II

    Gary Weaver II Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    I'm probably totally off here, but aren't we talking about two different items in the first place?

    I understood that Max was going to mold and custom cast/paint some statue replicas.

    David was going to simply offer the original unmodified statues direct from the wholesale source?

    -Gary
     
  13. CeSquared

    CeSquared Sr Member

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    Thanks for the explanation Rocketeer25.

    I was reading through this thread, then I went to the JY and read BD's original thread.

    My opinion?

    1) TWOC should have nailed down all of the specifics before posting his initial thread. By posting his "interest" thread but leaving so many doors open, he was inviting someone else to step through the door and offer this item for less.

    It is a "found" item. He can't call "dibs" on it and expect nobody else to do some research and sell their own.

    He should have kept his mouth shut until he nailed down the prices, availability, etc.

    2) BD stepping in to offer this himself is arguably bad form, but he has to be commended for quickly doing the research, contacting a distributor, and getting the numbers figured out. It isn't his fault TWOC didn't reply to his inquiry and he can't be blamed for wanting something so easily found for a little less money.

    3) I don't think the RPF was wrong in temporarily pulling BD's thread. They were investigating a complaint and after they found that no COC was broken, put the thread back up.

    Since it is a found item, this shouldn't even be an issue.

    If I actually wanted this piece (which I don't), I would just do the research myself. I've seen this statue at a local Mexican Grocery Store for about $11 and the first thing I said to myself was "Huh...That is the statue from LOST."
     
  14. rocketeer25

    rocketeer25 Sr Member

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    Because we got a complaint from a member about another member. We get those from time to time. :rolleyes

    Since I was the only one of the mods online at the time last night, and the complaint involved potential transactions, I temporarily moved BD's thread, and told him I was doing so. It was put back today.

    Imagine that you started a thread trying to find a "widget" from the movie of the week. After a couple of dozen posts, you get the info you need to track them down. While you thinking about how to offer them to the board, someone who had been active in your research thread jumps the gun and decides to post in the JY about the very same "widget". Now you complain to the staff. What would you want the staff to do?

    We took a couple of hours, reviewed the situation, and put everything back the way it was. No harm, no foul. Except BD's pride was hurt, I guess.
     
  15. JD

    JD Master Member

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    BD,

    I can't really blame the RPF for taking a moment to review your thread and the history that details it. It my look black and white to you, but to others it may need some review and some backstory.

    I do think it's wrong for the staff to state that you are "hijacking" the project, that's poor form. But, it's easy to see how someone might get that impression.

    I think better communication might have solved this before it got to this point - did you PM or talk to the other "seller?" Rocketeer25 points out that the other "seller" did note in a post that he was going to offer this unmodified, and state that you felt he implied that he did not plan to offer them like this.

    It is a free market, it is a found item - an item many people might have access to. I can see how both parties can have a problem with this incident and I can't blame either for their responses. But, had we a little more communication it might not have gotten this far.
     
  16. RedTwoX

    RedTwoX Sr Member

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    In my opinion Boba Debt is over reacting. The sale was reviewed and allowed to continue. So what's the big deal? I'm sure THE WRAPOFCONS felt like his business was being cut into, so he turned to the forum moderators. Of course he has no claim to be the sole provider of Mary statues to the RPF, and the competitve sale was allowed to continue. "Bad form" is up to personal opinion, but I really son't see anything wrong here. Disputes between members are going to happen here. It's the domain of the admin and mods to review those situations. They did, and in this case made the right call.

    The "price bashing" occured in a private message. It was intended only for Boda Debt and THE WRAPOFCONS. It was not an open bash of TWOC's pricing, and the only reason we know about it is because of Boba Debt's actions (IMO over-reactions).

    My 2 cents. Keep the change
     
  17. Boba Debt

    Boba Debt Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    I dissagree with most of your post except for this part


     
  18. Prop Runner

    Prop Runner Sr Member

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    Well, no, because afiliates make separate deals with MR, not each other, and undercut one another to recruit more customers. It's competitive, and there is a profit margin involved - theoretically. ;)

    But since you're not making any money off offering unaltered statues, and in fact are expending time, energy, and materials to offer them at a wholesale discount, (which in my book ARE worth some compensation), I'm not sure what you're gaining personally. I would have just told TWOP - "dude, you can get these for $18 wholesale and charge less money to RPF customers while still making the same markup for painting & finishing services." Then again, TWOP would probably have arrived at his own volume discount given enough orders, and dropped his price a bit (even though I'm not saying he overcharged without knowledge of the statue's cost: $40-$50 for a professional paint and weathering job is VERY reasonable.)

    I *DO* believe your intent was to "pay it forward" to the RPF, but since the majority probably would prefer a repainted/weathered statue, you could have paid it forward through TWOP. Overlooking post #26 was an honest mistake, but better communication and patience BETWEEN ALL PARTIES could have avoided this incident altogether. :)

    - Gabe
     
  19. Boba Debt

    Boba Debt Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Let's see, Amish started a thread about the Han ANH Flash Hider, Darth Lars made a positive ID and then after a lot of leg work I found a person willing to ship me a real flash hider at my own expence.

    Prop Runner also found a source, except his was better.

    When he posted that he was interested in doing a run I NEVER ONCE felt offended.

    In fact, I stepped aside because I knew he could offer a BETTER Part at a BETTER PRICE.

    Then I returned the Flash Hider to the original owner.

    In the big picture I lost about $70, the cost of shipping, but It doesn't bother me a nit because I know the RPF is going to get a better Part.

    So stop claiming i would have done the same thing, that judgment has no basis in reality.



    As for my pride being hurt, that is laughable since I am the one making this a public issue.

    I made this info public because i am dumbfounded by your logic and I think that the members of the RPF DESERVE to understand the mentality that went into your decision to review my thread.


    I'M STILL WAITING FOR SOMEONE TO EXPLAIN HOW IT IS BAD FORM FOR A PERSON TO OFFER A FOUND "RETAIL" ITEM FOR LESS THEN ANOTHER MEMBER?


     
  20. Kerr Avon

    Kerr Avon Master Member

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    Welcome to the world of capitalism. If someone can provide the same product at a lower price, I'll buy from him.
     
  21. TOKI

    TOKI Well-Known Member

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    The staff, the powers that be, the people in charge, those that can edit/delete your posts and ban you, have suggested to a member that his cost for services is too high.

    What is the member to do/think. Should he lower his price out fear? Should he thumb his nose at the staff and fear retribution? Should he no longer offer his service on this board?

    Of all the abuses of power seen, this is in my opinion the worst.

    I beleive TWOC is owed an immediate apology and explanation as to why the staff could not follow their own guidelines.

    Arthur
     
  22. Boba Debt

    Boba Debt Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    I'm not over reacting.

    It would have only took Rocketeer about 10 minutes to read my thread, and TWOCs thread to figure out what was going on


    Instead it ttok a satff reveiw to detemine and if they had sent me a reply stating that after reviewing the thread they didn't see anything wrong this would have been a non-issue

    BUT, I have been accused of having "bad form" and TWOCs has been accused of price gouging

    (Sarcasim on)That mean old Boba Debt is giving away props again, what a jerk.

    And TWOCs actually had the nerve to ask to be compensated for his time and talent, unbelievable (Sarcasim Off)


    I think both of us are owed an apology.
     
  23. rocketeer25

    rocketeer25 Sr Member

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    It was a simple lack of communication.

    You showed bad form when you didn't communicate with TWOC, the author of the thread you were participating in. You could have simply let him know that you could get a better deal with your connections than he could. You both could have come away winners, and the membership could have benefited from it.

    Maybe he would have wanted to work with you, maybe not. Either way, he would have known that you weren't out to "hijack" his project and undercut his price, as he stated to me in a PM.
     
  24. rocketeer25

    rocketeer25 Sr Member

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    I publicly apologize for using the words "apparent price-jacking 2-3 times the cost of a found item" in a Private Message to Boba Debt and TWOC.

    In several PMs from TWOC concerning BD, he has stated that he never set a price.

    Apparently, BD and I both took the $50-$75 estimate out of context.

    For that, I apologize again to TWOC.
     
  25. Prop Runner

    Prop Runner Sr Member

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    David, I actually thought I'd bring up our experience in my previous post for comparison, but decided it wasn't a true parallel. But since you bring it up, to clarify the difference between the two situations: before I made any announcements, I conferred with you and asked if you wanted to use my blueprints, while at the same time I told you my intention was to offer functional steel replicas at a low pricepoint. Given my superior sample and access to cheaper CNC machining, you graciously stepped aside, and I even offered you the files so you could offer simplified aluminum replicas with bull barrels that would not compete with mine, just as Serafino and I are offering steel ANM2 booster-gears while Roman's Empire is selling aluminum replicas. For your own reasons, you declined. But that's my point about the two situations being different: I offered you first right of refusal, and you did the right thing by the RPF, and for that you deserve everybody's gratitude and respect - not to mention all the advice you generously provided later on. :)

    I hope we can agree to disagree here, because that's what often happens between friends. Bottom line, I think your heart was in the right place, although it could have been handled better vis-a-vis TWOP, that's all. And the staff should NOT have taken unilateral action BEFORE evaluating the facts. Parallel: if my landlord had temporarily evicted me while investigating a neighbor's complaint, I would have had her in court the very next day. :p Once again: :thumbsdown

    And TWOP: if you're indeed offering resin or plaster casts of the found item, you had NO JUSTIFICATION for your complaint. Period.

    - Gabe
     
  26. Boba Debt

    Boba Debt Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Why is anyone "required" to contact another member before they offer to sell a found item, what is that ethic based on?

    When has this standard been applied in the past?



    You are assuming that he was paying more for his statues.

    For all we know he could actually be paying less.

    Either way, i have to ask why i should be required to contact him.

    Since obviously "profit" isn't my motive what do you think my motive was?




    Why do you think I should have given him the option to accept or deny my help?

    Maybe I didn't want to work with him, after all re-shipping the statues to him would onlyincrease the base cost.








    Once again you assume to much. If I had contacted him and if he decline my help he may have still felt like I was undercutting his price.

    Even if I do under cut his price how is that a bad thing?
     
  27. pyxl

    pyxl Well-Known Member

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    The only part of this I'm unclear on, is why anybody has their hackles up that the staff took a thread temporarily down to review it. The "How dare you" attitude seems unjustified IMHO. They didn't wipe it forever..they just said, "hey, we need some time to look at this". I get why you'd be peeved if they permanently pulled it. I get why you'd be peeved if they slapped you on the wrist (I guess I don't consider somebody calling 'bad form' a slap...I just hear Dustin Hoffman yelling at Robin Williams). I don't get why you're angry at them for stepping back to review. I appreciate they'd do that instead of a flat out "pull, delete and deny". I had enough of that at other boards.

    Did I mention I can offer these statues for $9.95? :) Just kidding.
     
  28. Boba Debt

    Boba Debt Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Gabe: I was a bit dumb founded when you contacted me about your project.

    I didn't understand why you felt as if you had to seek my permission to offer your version of the flash hider.

    I know that's not the best way to sum up our conversations but it is the easiest.

    What would you have done if I had asked you NOT to pursue your project, after all I had already spent $35 to have a flash hider shipped to me (At the time we didn't know it wasn't an accureat version).

    I also didn't step aside for gracious reasons.

    I was smart enough to recognize that you had the ability to offer a better product them me, therefore there was no reason to "compete" with you.

    I thought the TWOCs was going to offer Painted and Weathered Statues for $50-$75

    I could see that some people wanted unmodified statues and due to the fact that I missed Post 26 I did not know TWOCs was willing to offer unmodified Statues so I filled the void.


    About a year ago Phil was offering Riddick Knives (unmodified Blade only) for $15 (I think)

    I was able to offer a full kit for $15 (Knife and Handle) and I even added an optional wall display for $10 and I posted a construction tutorial.

    No one complained then and many people participated in my project, I had to do 4 runs.


    How is this any different?
     
  29. Boba Debt

    Boba Debt Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    This administration has a track record for making odd decisions about subjects that shouldn't even be an issue.


    This should not have been an issue, therefore it should not have been reviewed.


    The conclusion of the review is that I used bad form

    I still don't know how it's bad form to offer the people of a hobby forum something at great price.

    Some people have stated that I should have contacted TWOCs.

    I ask why you don't think he should have contacted me instead of the Mods?

    After all he just received an order of Verse Money from my other At Cost Project.

    A simple "Hey dude, I think your stepping on my toes" PM could have prevented all of this.

    I'm sorry I didn't perceive that HE would be offended by my offer but since he was he should have come to ME first.





     
  30. Megatron

    Megatron Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    hmmmm...

    guess you have to ask everyone if its ok to start projects...
     
  31. RedTwoX

    RedTwoX Sr Member

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    What on earth are you going on about? Fear of what? What retribution? They just said that they thought the price was to high. There were no threats. There was no pressure to lower the price. Just a statement of personal opinion made in private.

    It was good of Rocketeer25 to step and appologise in the interest of smoothing ruffled feathers. However, I am disgusted that an individual should be expected to apologise for a personal opinion expressed in a private conversation. Are we not adults of free will with a voice (be it written or spoken) to express it?

    This whole thing has gotten blown WAY out of proportion. A complaint was made, it was looked into, no wrong doing was found, and everything was set back exactly like it was to begin with. If you felt you were being wronged by another member wouldn't you want the moderators to look into it? That's all that happened here.
     
  32. Macklin

    Macklin Well-Known Member

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    Heheh. Score one for BD.

    Or is that three? Hmph.

    You notice that only a couple of your questions have been answered? I doubt you'll get any response regarding the history of free market on the RPF. Just a lot of doublethink.
     
  33. TOKI

    TOKI Well-Known Member

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    "Just a statement of personal opinion made in private."

    This was not personal opinion. It was an official PM from the staff informing him that the staff felt that he was charging too much for services.

    "Are we not adults of free will with a voice (be it written or spoken) to express it?"

    Are we not adults free to charge what we want for our time and talent without being scolded by the staff?


    Arthur
     
  34. Boba Debt

    Boba Debt Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Are you even reading this thread.

    I was and am still being accused of BAD FORM and TWOCs was accused of PRICE GOUGING

    Are the people that wanted to get the statures from me also in some way guilty of Bad Form?

    Is it wrong to want to "help" some people by making a product more affordable to them?


     
  35. Prop Runner

    Prop Runner Sr Member

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    Simply put, you rang the project bell first, and I felt that your track record in leading projects just like this in the past, not to mention your long-established Han blaster creds made you (in my eyes) the best person to take it on. If it weren't for my machining source and pristine sample, I would have been buying a replica from YOU soon. ;)

    I would have offered my 3D IGES file and blueprint, like I said I would, and perhaps asked to be compensated with a discount on a replica. :)

    That, my friend, is the DEFINITION of gracious. :D

    Here's another example of gracious behavior: when an RPFer places a bid on an eBay auction, and another member, recognizing the eBay handle, graciously doesn't enter a bidding war for the item. Unfortunately, unless the Junkyard posts a stuck list of RPF and eBay handles alphabetically, it's impractical if not impossible to be proactively courtious. :p Again: nobody HAS TO BE courtious, which is why it remains a voluntary act and why the perceived lack of it should not be "reviewed" or labeled "bad form." :rolleyes

    Megatron: no, that's not what I'm saying. But when there's some overlap or doubt as to toe stepping, it's always best to ask.

    The Blade Runner LAPD badge is another example. One board member was preparing a run of metal badges with Deckard's photo in the middle, in the spirit of the film's real wallet badge, but two other members answered growing demand for a repeat-run of the original LAPD-style badge and rose to the occassion with their project, not being aware that another peoject was in the works, yet unannounced. When I tried to play diplomat and merge the two projects, both sides decided it was best to keep them separate, and the photo badge project was put on hold until the LAPD-badge project is over, out of courtesy to prevent loss of customers to the active project.

    Again, courtesy is a voluntary act, but not one that should be automatic or assumed in a highly competitive marketplace such as the RPF.

    - Gabe
     
  36. RedTwoX

    RedTwoX Sr Member

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    You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but I really don't see it that way at all. These are a bunch of folks running a web forum for prop fans, not the FBI. Even if they are in a position of authority, they are still human beings entitled to an opinion and the opinion was expressed in private. If it had been stated in open forum then they would have broken their own rules of conduct, but they didn't. There was never any pressure to change the price. They just stated an opinion on it. I really don't see a problem here. I don't understand what all the fuss is about. There might be some grounds for coming down on THE WARPOFCONS for "crying wolf", but even that's a very loooong stretch.
     
  37. RedTwoX

    RedTwoX Sr Member

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    You got accused of "Bad Form". So what? It was in private. No one on the open forum had any knowledge of it until you posted it. They are entitled to their opinion. You are equally entitled to yours. They would have handled the situation differently and stated as such. You handled it the way you did and stuck by your guns.

    The mods found no wrong doing on either part and your sale of statues was put back in place.
     
  38. Boba Debt

    Boba Debt Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    I guess you just don't understand the rule the moderators have on this forum.

    They make judgment calls and people get banned, some forever.

    If they found no wrong doing why the need for the Bad Form comment?




     
  39. mez7

    mez7 Sr Member

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    ok, nice touch with the rollseyes, good form for someone in charge,

    but i still dont see why a pulled thread would be needed over this situation....
     
  40. TOKI

    TOKI Well-Known Member

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    When writing with their "mod hats" on, yes, they give up their right to expressing an opinion about pricing. It may be your opinion that it was just a members opinion on pricing. But it was stated in a PM discussing official mod actions. It was an official PM.

    A rose is a rose by any other name.

    Obviously they feel they have the right to suggest pricing guidelines. How far a step is it to enforcing price guidelines? Maybe a big one, but I never thought I would see them even suggest it. It is simply none of their business at all.

    I see "mere suggestions" at work all the time, but you better take the suggestion to heart or else. Comes with working under a supervisor who grew up in a communist country.

    Arthur
     
  41. RedTwoX

    RedTwoX Sr Member

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    Perhaps I don't understand the role of the mods. Perhaps you are blowing it way out of proportion. I didn't see nor did I read in any threat of banning or other disciplinary action in the PM. It is my understanding that, except in extreme cases, disciplinary action will be preceded by a warning. I did not see nor did I read in an expressed or implied warning in the PM.

    This isn't my first rodeo. I'm a noob to RPF, but not web forums. I'm a member of a lot of forums on a number of different topics and have been for many years. I've seen poor and heavy handed moderation. This ain't it.

     
  42. TOKI

    TOKI Well-Known Member

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    The point I'm making is how much weight do you give an OFFICIAL suggestion that you're charging too much for a service.

    It is only human nature that certain questions are raised in your mind when receiving such a "suggestion".

    Given I have used extreme examples, but it is extreme that the mods would make such a suggestion. Especially when you consider that they state that "price bashing" is a no-no. It doesn't matter if it is public or private.

    This is why it is so very important for those in power to choose their words very carefully, and to live by their own rules.

    Arthur
     
  43. rocketeer25

    rocketeer25 Sr Member

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    Yep, we roll back prices every night in the JY when everyone is asleep. Learned it from Walmart. <--- (notice, no smileys here)

    Toki, you seem to have really been offended by my private comment to TWOC and Boba Debt. I've traded a few PMs with TWOC about this situation tonight, even while this thread has been rolling along, and he's never once mentioned it to me. Yet you seem greatly disturbed by it. Perhaps it was your exposure to communism? Regardless, for your sake and his, I apologized to him publicly. If you have some other bone to pick with me, please let's handle it privately.

    And don't worry, RedTwoX, you're seeing things exactly as they are. This mountain was made from a molehill, and it's getting pretty old pretty fast.
     
  44. RedTwoX

    RedTwoX Sr Member

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    They did not suggest a price change. Yes, they did state that they thought it was too high. However, there was no suggestion, influence, or pressure to change it. There were no warnings, no threats, no strong arm tactics of any kind. They made it quite clear that the market would set the fair price:


    The message was made in private. They never made any suggestion to any potential customers that they price was too high. People in authority are still people. They have just as much right to their opinions and the free expression of them as any one else.

    In my opinion this is being given far more weight that it deserves. If there really was an attempt exert influence over a price it would be a different story, but I just don't see it here. All they did was express an opinion. I may or may not agree with the opinion, but I won't fault someone for expressing one. I expect the same from others.
     
  45. TOKI

    TOKI Well-Known Member

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    Disturbed, not offended.

    But all points have been made.

    Arthur
     
  46. Mechinyun

    Mechinyun Sr Member

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    you guys should take this to court, cause who ever wins is gonna be RICH, RICH FROM THE SWEET DELIGHTS THAT ONLY THE TERRACOTTA MEXICAN VIRGIN MERRY COULD PROVIDE.
     
  47. rocketeer25

    rocketeer25 Sr Member

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    :lol

    BTW... love the avatar Mechinyun. Got that sucker on my workbench right now. I think I've inhaled a pound of resin dust. :D
     
  48. Mechinyun

    Mechinyun Sr Member

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    aHHH yeah. The coolest prop in the world.
     
  49. rocketeer25

    rocketeer25 Sr Member

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    You better believe it. If I can find my camera, I'll post some pics of the kit I'm working on. :)
     
  50. synasp

    synasp Sr Member

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    Holy crap, I cannot believe this thread even exists..... :( <--face of disappointment.

    Because Gabe is a nice guy. He respected the "other" party involved with a project just to give a heads up. You didn't need to agree with him. You could've gone forward, and Gabe could've done the same. End result? Members vote with their wallets. (which doesn't always follow the low price)

    Since this isn't inherent to you, a misunderstanding arises. I honestly believe you didn't intend to screw WoC over. You're not a bad guy. That doesn't mean it's still not bad form.

    WoC started the thread, and he did deserve a heads up. It's a gentleman's courtesy that Gabe extended onto you. He could've denied or accepted, and you could've done what you wanted. The difference is you would have fulfilled your end of this courtesy, as Gabe did for the other project.

    This has nothing to do with price. It has to do with someone starting a project, releasing a product, you hijacking the project, him complaining, and a mod responding to a complaint to see what the hell was going on. We try our best. We're not omnipresent. Lonnie TEMPORARILY pulled the thread so a 3rd party could take a look at it and make a FAIR decision. It was clear, after review, that you should have communicated better with WoC as a courtesy--out of respect for another RPF member. We don't mandate courtesy or respect of others (although it's nice to have, no?), and that's why we put your thread back. Again, price has nothing to do with this. Should I repeat this again?

    I'm really very sorry that you are so terribly unhappy with a mod responding to a complaint. If something is a "hot issue" I lock down a thread until I can review it without 500 more posts being written, pushing me further behind being able to fully understand the issue. I like to know all sides of the story before I make a decision. Lonnie extended this onto you. He could've said, "hey, a complaint. Oh, WoC is complaining about BD. I'll nuke BD's thread. Hell, lets send BD a warning too." But he didn't. He wanted to give you equal opportunity. He wanted to see both sides of the story. He did that, put your thread back, and PMed both of you trying to clear up the situation.

    A similar issue is with live auctions. If we get a complaint, we yank it temporarily for review. If it is found to be a fraudulent auction, we put it back. If it's not, we yanked it for good and contact the involved parties. Again, we try to be fair and thorough. My apologies if you feel wronged, but I fully support the actions that took place.

    You're not required to contact another member. Again, it's courtesy resulting from respect of other members. This is not too much to ask for. And even still, you have the liberty to entirely disregard this courtesy if you so choose. But if you so choose to disregard courtesy, it is bad form. I, at least, consider it bad form. Bad form. Baaaad form. Why does "bad form" make you so angry? (not rhetorical--I actually want to know why you're so angry with the use of this term)

    This is very true, but has nothing to do with the mods. He chose to exercise his ability to hit the REPORT button. We responded best we could. In hindsight, it was STILL the right call.

    Not enough time to get a full picture? The hot issue is pending, like a live auction link? Pull it, review it, put it back or contact involved parties. Simple process. I'd do it again.


    ----
    and Toki, I believe saying WoC's prices were high in the Private Message was offered to WoC as a possibly reason as to why BD did what he did. It's not "cool" of anyone to try to sell something to the membership for double his cost (though I think this is still unclear). But, everyone has the right in this free market to put any * price he wants on something. Don't like the price? Move on. This is also why we have a "no price bashing" rule. PM the guy and say, "hey, isn't that price a bit high?" but don't say it in public where it can actually hurt his sale. It was never meant as a threat. That concept is so absurd (to me, anyway) that a mod would threaten someone to lower their prices... geez. :rolleyes <--there are my rolling eyes.

    But yes, I admit once and for all. The RPF staff is conspiring to take over the world. We're all evil. We try to screw anyone and everyone we can, and take advantage of any opportunity given. In fact, I have to go eat some babies now, because I haven't filled my quota for today. (Yes, we have baby-eating quotas..) BLargu BLagoblah. :wacko

    (okay, I understand now why this thread was started. But with 99% of all issues I see here, it extends from miscommunication, and could have--and still can.--be avoided)
     
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