Alleged Screen Used Hero TOS Phaser up for auction (now the aftermath)

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Believe it or not, I’m pretty familiar with this world for a slightly different market. What’s unusual in this case, is the reluctance to share basic information like the credentials of the experts. Generally, you want respected experts in more than one relevant field. Fooling multiple disciplines very difficult. At lest that’s the conventional wisdom…
Oh, I believe you, and I agree completely. Citing an expert who isn't willing to put pen to paper and stand by their opinion is worse then no expert opinion at all. In every other market I deal in, that is a kiss of death. Obfuscating the identities of the two or three other experts who agree with the opinion doesn't help at all either. It doesn't take much to cherry pick and find the opinions that you want, and ignore the rest.

HeroComm has always been a great resource, and one that provided a LOT of facts and references, and didn't really render flat out opinions except in this case. I find that odd as well. Maybe they DO have solid information, and were waiting until the auction was over to reveal it. I have no idea, I'm not party to their discussions.
 
Einstein was an EXPERT. He predicted that light would bend around a large gravitational mass. But until the that was PROVEN, it was not taken as fact.

Jein is an EXPERT. He predicted that the phaser is a real vintage 60's Star Trek phaser. But until it is PROVEN, I do not take it as fact.

He has given his opinion, but has not done any test to PROVE what he claims.
 
So...let's take it as read for a moment that the props are real and that the evaluators (and a small percentage of others) are aware of details or information that prove this to be true. They are, however, unable to reveal this information to the bidding public, to the almost certain detriment of the auction.

Why? What possible facts about a public auction could be that sensitive?

I'm not making any judgement here, just a statement of possibilities. I don't know the actual reasons here.

The auction and art world thrives on secrecy. Selling price, asking price, who's selling, who's buying, all of that information can be leveraged to change the market price of items, either up or down. The "insider knowledge" that people like me use to broker, buy, and sell, gives us an edge, and allow us to make profit where another person might not. If everyone knows that the buyer is a tech billionaire with a passion for Star Trek, you can bet that, somehow, that lot will sell for a lot more then if they were anonymous.

Now, as to why an auction house wouldn't write a good, informative, and helpful description? To be generous, laziness. (There are a lot of other, far less generous reasons, as well!) I can absolutely make a case for some items that doing a lot of research, getting scientific analysis done, consulting professionals, etc... is just not worth the cost. This is not one of those cases. There is no reason to spend $10k to authenticate something worth $20k. The profit margin isn't there. In this case, though, if the offered evidence was undeniably solid, I'd have expected the phaser to sell for far more then a mid-grade. In which case, I'd like to think that they'd have put forth a little more effort.

Here's the thing, though. Maybe they are lazy, maybe they think they're reputation is good enough that they don't need to go to such lengths, maybe the cost vs. return wasn't there for them, maybe the provenance is weak... or maybe they just don't care. Once the contract is signed, the items photographed and cataloged, it's up to the buyers to decide if the description is good enough for them to bid. Why put more effort forth then you need to?

There are probably a few dozen fans who could have afforded to buy it. Most would take a look, form their opinion, and bid or pass. Some would consult with others, or enlist a professional to do the legwork and form an opinion of authenticity. From the auction house's point of view, why cater to the masses, the forums, and the entirety of the internet? They're not the ones bidding, and frankly, no matter how good of a job you do, the internet will hate it anyway, so why bother?

That's my generous take. I'm not saying that's what happened. There are other, less savory possibilities. It could all be a fraud on the part of the consigners, a long con, or something completely innocent, and nobody wants to admit they are wrong. At this point, who knows? Certainly not me.

Forums like this, and sites like HeroComm, can be a tremendous resource for buyers, bidders, and researchers. They can, and do, affect auctions. Certain blogs can make or break items, and I think that can be a good thing. Nobody knows everything, and crowd sourcing some of the legwork can be tremendously helpful... or harmful. It's a great case of "let the market decide".

The problem is, when the offered item and provenance are contrary to the current wisdom, you'd better be ready to back it up. Judging by this thread, they haven't done a great job of that.
 
That tidbit genZOD mentioned I find very interesting. Both Wah Chang and Jim Rugg said that there were at least six heroes? Could that be a simple case of fuzzy memories and false recollections clouding the facts, or is there more to it?

“At least six” isn’t all that far off from four, after all.
 
That tidbit genZOD mentioned I find very interesting. Both Wah Chang and Jim Rugg said that there were at least six heroes? Could that be a simple case of fuzzy memories and false recollections clouding the facts, or is there more to it?

“At least six” isn’t all that far off from four, after all.

Well, the shells are different from the GJ and the surviving midgrades all of which have common characteristics so at least the mystery 5th phaser alone (an probably the forth-coming mystery 6th phaser) were pulled from a different mold? Really?
 
You know, all of this could be shut down immediately if the *experts* in question would come forward with their irrefutable provenance. They without doubt know about this thread. So why be silent? And why again do certain others get so triggered, so agitated, so apoplectic over suggestions that it might be a forgery that they come off as completely unhinged, spewing hate and threats at people? I contend that here are REASONS for ALL of this. Things for people to gain- whatever they are. Money, influence, employment, etc., are all on the table. If HC or JG came forth with undeniable facts, we'd all say, "Well I'll be damned!" and move on. But no. It's being allowed to continue. Why?
 
Well, the shells are different from the GJ and the surviving midgrades all of which have common characteristics so at least the mystery 5th phaser alone (an probably the forth-coming mystery 6th phaser) were pulled from a different mold? Really?

And here’s that 6th phaser: A production-made prototype which was given to a fan by Wah Chang at the end of the first season, after the midgrades were built. It was a first attempt at repainting the black-and-whites, and sported an early color scheme that Wah later changed to the gray phasers we know and love. It sat in a basement for decades, which is why no one knows anything about it.The LoAs and chain of custody are irrefutable and should not be questioned by anyone, ever, so no one will be seeing them. Scientific material testing is also unnecessary, because the unnamed owner and the unnamed experts say so.

AC275F3B-8C9C-4C83-BBB0-7D0F4EE254AE.jpeg


You know, all of this could be shut down immediately if the *experts* in question would come forward with their irrefutable provenance. They without doubt know about this thread. So why be silent? And why again do certain others get so triggered, so agitated, so apoplectic over suggestions that it might be a forgery that they come off as completely unhinged, spewing hate and threats at people? I contend that here are REASONS for ALL of this. Things for people to gain- whatever they are. Money, influence, employment, etc., are all on the table. If HC or JG came forth with undeniable facts, we'd all say, "Well I'll be damned!" and move on. But no. It's being allowed to continue. Why?

Money and clout.
 
You know, all of this could be shut down immediately if the *experts* in question would come forward with their irrefutable provenance. They without doubt know about this thread. So why be silent? And why again do certain others get so triggered, so agitated, so apoplectic over suggestions that it might be a forgery that they come off as completely unhinged, spewing hate and threats at people? I contend that here are REASONS for ALL of this. Things for people to gain- whatever they are. Money, influence, employment, etc., are all on the table. If HC or JG came forth with undeniable facts, we'd all say, "Well I'll be damned!" and move on. But no. It's being allowed to continue. Why?

Do you know what "Yes men" are? (rhetorical question)
GJ and his 3 yes men don't question this, and clearly are the ones assuring everyone that the evidence is irrefutable.

But Socrates [apparently] said, "The unexamined life is not worth living" during his own TRIAL.
Meaning that he welcomed his PRIVATE life being examined and welcomed defending it to people.

A person [or expert] that says that this evidence is not worth examining is also saying [as far as I'm concerned] that that evidence is not worth HAVING. Which is the same as no evidence at all.
 
Introducing the Socratic method into these discourses??

The Socratic method is a form of cooperative argumentative dialogue between individuals, based on asking and answering questions to stimulate critical thinking and to draw out ideas and underlying presuppositions.

The best definition I have seen on what has transpired here. (y)
 
Do you know what "Yes men" are? (rhetorical question)
GJ and his 3 yes men don't question this, and clearly are the ones assuring everyone that the evidence is irrefutable.

But Socrates [apparently] said, "The unexamined life is not worth living" during his own TRIAL.
Meaning that he welcomed his PRIVATE life being examined and welcomed defending it to people.

A person [or expert] that says that this evidence is not worth examining is also saying [as far as I'm concerned] that that evidence is not worth HAVING. Which is the same as no evidence at all.
Well put.
Logic would dictate that if certain evidence would irrefutably support their claims, and therefore would alleviate all dissention, then refusing to bring it forth would be- illogical. (And counterproductive.)
So again- what's the LOGICAL reason for withholding it from an "up-in-arms" community?
Present answer: Unknown.
 
From the auction house side, I think it might be a simple as sunk costs and damage mitigation.

If it was real, and it did sell for $250k, then there is no reason to provide any more information except to the new happy owner.

If it's fake, and it sold for $250k, then providing any more information could unwind that sale. That would be embarrassing, at the very least.

If it's real, and didn't actually sell for $250k, then why bother sinking any more effort into it?

If it's fake, and didn't sell for $250k, then drawing any more attention to it would be not be in anyone's best interest but ours.

In short, there is no incentive for them to provide any more details, and in fact, there are plenty of reasons not to. Which is terribly unsatisfying.
 
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James,

I think there is an incentive for them to get ahead of this and clarify the situation. They have made a recent major change in administration and leadership, and a misstep could mean further loss of confidence in them and their auctions - the opposite of where they want to be.

In spite of a successful series of auctions, all at one time, a huge endeavor, they have failed to issue a press release on it and the results. Liveauctioneers last week, reported twice, on their video game world record marks, yet what is now a $7.5M sale, with more than a few boastful lots (MM Bus Stop outfit at $399K), is not being hailed anywhere.
 
James,

I think there is an incentive for them to get ahead of this and clarify the situation. They have made a recent major change in administration and leadership, and a misstep could mean further loss of confidence in them and their auctions - the opposite of where they want to be.

In spite of a successful series of auctions, all at one time, a huge endeavor, they have failed to issue a press release on it and the results. Liveauctioneers last week, reported twice, on their video game world record marks, yet what is now a $7.5M sale, with more than a few boastful lots (MM Bus Stop outfit at $399K), is not being hailed anywhere.

Yep, they need to improve ties with the community. Addressing OUR concerns is one of those things, but even just notifying the public of successful events (as you say) is part of what should be in their communications.
 
Do you know what "Yes men" are? (rhetorical question)
GJ and his 3 yes men don't question this, and clearly are the ones assuring everyone that the evidence is irrefutable.

But Socrates [apparently] said, "The unexamined life is not worth living" during his own TRIAL.
Meaning that he welcomed his PRIVATE life being examined and welcomed defending it to people.

A person [or expert] that says that this evidence is not worth examining is also saying [as far as I'm concerned] that that evidence is not worth HAVING. Which is the same as no evidence at all.
To me, it looks like a clique of insiders got over excited & talked each other into buying a phaser that's probably going to end up being deemed a fake.

I'm open to changing my opinion--but I'd need, you know, FACTS.
 
I think there is an incentive for them to get ahead of this and clarify the situation. They have made a recent major change in administration and leadership, and a misstep could mean further loss of confidence in them and their auctions - the opposite of where they want to be.

In spite of a successful series of auctions, all at one time, a huge endeavor, they have failed to issue a press release on it and the results. Liveauctioneers last week, reported twice, on their video game world record marks, yet what is now a $7.5M sale, with more than a few boastful lots (MM Bus Stop outfit at $399K), is not being hailed anywhere.
That's a really good point! I'd agree from a PR standpoint, and certainly a community building perspective that it would be a good move to do so... except at what cost?

Is it worth the time and effort (money) to them to constantly engage with people on forums, most of which can't afford to buy the goods they are selling? This thread has been a real roller coaster, and can you imagine how much crazier it would be if there was an official representative posting here? Dealing with actual buyers and sellers is hard enough, can you imagine being hired to actively monitor and patrol the internet and social media trying to spread goodwill? No one could pay me enough to deal with that sort of drama! I think there's a reason most big businesses tend to avoid posting anything, even on official forums. It's even worse when you get into really niche areas, some of the those communities can be downright toxic.

While I'm a big fan of transparency, and I'd hope that facts were forthcoming, I'm not holding my breath.

To me, it looks like a clique of insiders got over excited & talked each other into buying a phaser that's probably going to end up being deemed a fake.

I'm open to changing my opinion--but I'd need, you know, FACTS.
Groupthink is a dangerous thing. Especially when there is a veil of anonymity and limited accountability. Since no-one has to stand behind their reputation, there is no cost to doing so.
 
What if, a bunch of people that had never heard of "GONE WITH THE WIND" examined the book? They might say, "Look at all the things that are RIGHT about the time, and culture, and events of the civil war....isn't it likely that Gone with the Wind is.....NON-fiction?"

They'd still be dead wrong, if they didn't involve people in the discussion that KNOW that Gone with the Wind is a work of FICTION. Only talking amongst themselves and not getting outside input could make them make a mistake in identification.
 
That's a really good point! I'd agree from a PR standpoint, and certainly a community building perspective that it would be a good move to do so... except at what cost?

Is it worth the time and effort (money) to them to constantly engage with people on forums, most of which can't afford to buy the goods they are selling? This thread has been a real roller coaster, and can you imagine how much crazier it would be if there was an official representative posting here? Dealing with actual buyers and sellers is hard enough, can you imagine being hired to actively monitor and patrol the internet and social media trying to spread goodwill? No one could pay me enough to deal with that sort of drama! I think there's a reason most big businesses tend to avoid posting anything, even on official forums. It's even worse when you get into really niche areas, some of the those communities can be downright toxic.

While I'm a big fan of transparency, and I'd hope that facts were forthcoming, I'm not holding my breath.

Precisely.

And that's why this debate will rage on forever, until such time as someone discloses key information.

Considering the amount of red flags and aggressive personalities surrounding this piece, there's simply no way that the community will ever come together and agree that it's genuine. This item will always be the red-headed stepchild of the prop community, rather than a celebrated discovery which so many people had been waiting so long to see.
 
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