Alleged Screen Used Hero TOS Phaser up for auction (now the aftermath)

[alensatemybuick]

They can not say that their opinion means something and that their opinion means nothing, legally. You can't have it both ways.

Yep, by saying their opinion is NOT A LEGAL ONE, then Herocomm's assertions are TRULY worth no more or less than OURS. And I trust the evaluations of the things that are not right, by OUR people more than people that say these differences don't matter, and it's real anyway.

I disagree. How does one make their opinion a legal one, exactly? Have it notarized? All kidding aside, they are never going to say “beg, borrow and steal as much money you can and bid on that phaser, we’re that certain it’s the real deal. And please sue us if we’re wrong.“ But absent a legal definition, some opinions are going to be worth more than others. Even if they come from people who’ve been fooled before, are going senile, or are “in on it”.

 

[genZOD]

It would not surprise me that those truly in a position to authenticate an item would not want want the whole world to know all the “tells”, for what should be obvious reasons. The world is not actually entitled to that information.

In this case, the significant value of the item is based on its authenticity. Herocomm aside, HA wants six figures for a oddly painted scratch built phaser. They say it’s worth $100,000 — not $100. OK, prove it.

I hope that the P1 & P2 are real. They would be historically significant & add to our knowledge of the building techniques used by 60’s prop makers. I hope that someone finds a scene in an episode that shows them. The stills HA has provided are of different props. Those images really bother me because when an auction house displays a picture it’s implied that they’re part of the item’s proof of authenticity.

 

[Captain Dunsel]

I suspect that the always imitated, never duplicated, “pinky swear” has been invoked to testify to the validity of the piece.

As I said before, in this thread, that would be all the proof that I need regarding the legitimacy of the prop.

In all seriousness, I will never be able to do a hands-on analysis of this prop and am reliant on those who have been able to do so. Until some expert—who has completed a hands-on analysis of the prop and it’s provenance—has raised concerns, then the case is closed for me.

For now, I accept the item as what it is presented to be. Everything else, beyond expert hands-on analysis, is really just unresolvable speculation.

I also trust that Herocomm has done their homework regarding the credentials of the experts who have had that opportunity to complete a hands-on analysis. (Recall, originally, Herocomm had some concerns regarding the authenticity that appear to have been addressed and resolved to their satisfaction.)

On a side note, one thing that is new information for me, from a future builds standpoint, is revealed by the ongoing unfortunate deterioration being suffered by the paint on the Jein phaser…

Due to an apparent fresh “flake-off” of paint, one can see the clear indication that the “bronze” paint on the handle of the Jein Phaser II is a repaint and, underneath that layer of “bronze” paint, you can see a “gunmetal” color that appears to match the color of this newly discovered hero. This also proves that the details on these props can vary wildly and that they they were subjected to repaints and overhauls that were not uniform in nature.

 

[Gregatron]

I suspect that the always imitated, never duplicated, “pinky swear” has been invoked to testify to the validity of the piece.

As I said before, in this thread, that would be all the proof that I need regarding the legitimacy of the prop.

In all seriousness, I will never be able to do a hands-on analysis of this prop and am reliant on those who have been able to do so. Until some expert—who has completed a hands-on analysis of the prop—has raised concerns, the case is closed for me and I’ll accept it as what it is presented to be. I also trust that Herocomm has done their homework regarding the credentials of the experts who have had that opportunity to complete a hands-on analysis. Everything else beyond that analysis is really just unresolvable speculation.

On a side note, one thing that is new information for me, from a future builds standpoint, is revealed by the ongoing unfortunate deterioration being suffered by the paint on the Jein phaser…

Due to an apparent fresh “flake-off” of paint, one can see the clear indication that the “bronze” paint on the handle of the Jein Phaser II is a repaint and, underneath that layer of “bronze” paint, you can see a “gunmetal” color that appears to match the color of this newly discovered hero. This also proves that the details on these props can vary wildly.

View attachment 1473454

Good observation. I’ve always been more in the “gunmetal” camp than the “bronze” camp, myself.

 

[Jintosh]

I disagree. How does one make their opinion a legal one, exactly? Have it notarized? All kidding aside, they are never going to say “beg, borrow and steal as much money you can and bid on that phaser, we’re that certain it’s the real deal. And please sue us if we’re wrong.“ But absent a legal definition, some opinions are going to be worth more than others. Even if they come from people who’ve been fooled before, are going senile, or are “in on it”.

Our society has a court system, all the way up to the Supreme Court. It is a legal system, and the Supreme Court has the legal right to say all other (and lower) opinions don't matter. That what they (SC) says, is law. What we're dealing with here is so loose, that there is no standard or way to truly value an opinion over another in a chain-of-command kind of way. This is just unfortunate, but I'm not saying it can be fixed.

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I say, if something is presented as real, such as a Da Vinci, and even someone that is not a fully recognized expert can spot tells that it is not likely real, then an expert saying that the Da Vinci is real would be the real problem in such a case. If the flaws are so glaring that a non-expert can see them, then an expert should be able to see them as well. (Yes, I'm talking about paintings, again. )
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[USS Endeav]

Actually there is more than the memo, upon Wah's death the executor of the estate wrote a letter detailing all of the Star Trek invoices from his records, one of which said something like "reworking of 4 practical phasers, adding knobs, etc.). Nothing about a mystery 5th phaser.

None of this discounts the possibility a fifth hero was ordered. All of this is circumstantial and non bearing as far as answering the question of the 5th phasers existence.

 

[genZOD]

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I say, if something is presented as real, such as a Da Vinci, and even someone that is not a fully recognized expert can spot tells that it is not likely real, then an expert saying that the Da Vinci is real would be the real problem in such a case. If the flaws are so glaring that a non-expert can see them, then an expert should be able to see them as well. (Yes, I'm talking about paintings, again. )
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Every artifact comes with unexplainable anomalies. Time just has a way of introducing them. My problem with this listing is the complete lack of evidence for the broad claims. For six figures, you'd expect to see some historical/contextual photographic evidence and recent forensic evidence. We have two items that are ONLY valuable because of their history -- with no verifiable history provided -- that have been brought together for this auction. That's an extraordinary event. Now, obviously, there are any number of reasons that this might have happened. The chain of ownership of the P1 and/or the P2 could involve the estate(s) of a celebrity. Who knows. Barring any explanation, we're left with a murky history. Add to that, these props both exhibit odd details that aren't apparent in their siblings & hard to explain away with "they were repaired". Again, these props were hand built from common molds, so these variations are not unexplainable, but odd. I mean, the builder of the P2 might have hated the way the side knob cut into the ribs and altered the design of a hero that they were asked to build later. The builder of the new P1 could have noticed that the side rails kept falling off the other heroes and decided to recess them for this model.

 

[Gregatron]

Every artifact comes with unexplainable anomalies. Time just has a way of introducing them. My problem with this listing is the complete lack of evidence for the broad claims. For six figures, you'd expect to see some historical/contextual photographic evidence and recent forensic evidence. We have two items that are ONLY valuable because of their history -- with no verifiable history provided -- that have been brought together for this auction. That's an extraordinary event. Now, obviously, there are any number of reasons that this might have happened. The chain of ownership of the P1 and/or the P2 could involve the estate(s) of a celebrity. Who knows. Barring any explanation, we're left with a murky history. Add to that, these props both exhibit odd details that aren't apparent in their siblings & hard to explain away with "they were repaired". Again, these props were hand built from common molds, so these variations are not unexplainable, but odd. I mean, the builder of the P2 might have hated the way the side knob cut into the ribs and altered the design of a hero that they were asked to build later. The builder of the new P1 could have noticed that the side rails kept falling off the other heroes and decided to recess them for this model.

That slot for the P1 side rail is one of the big red flags for me. The known TOS heroes had the rails glued on. The slots for the rails are something which apparently only came into being when the fan-made replicas started showing up in the 70s (such as the Brad Nelson phasers), and then made their way through most subsequent replicas, including the John Long P1.

If someone at the studio was, say, given the Jein phaser to use as a reference to build a fifth hero for the show (which should have been unnecessary after the first season), why would they replicate everything else faithfully (meter numbers, no gem, P1 Velcro), but NOT the method of attaching the rails? Why not just copy the method Wah Chang had used? Why get innovative and engineer a method of installing the rails which (so we thought) only came about after the fact, when fans in the 70s were trying to reverse-engineer the phasers using only the TMOST photos and Lincoln Enterprises film clips?

 

[genZOD]

If someone at the studio was, say, given the Jein phaser to use as a reference to build a fifth hero for the show (which should have been unnecessary after the first season), why would they replicate everything else faithfully (meter numbers, no gem, P1 Velcro), but NOT the method of attaching the rails? Why not just copy the method Wah Chang had used? Why get innovative and engineer a method of installing the rails which (so we thought) only came about after the fact, when fans in the 70s were trying to reverse-engineer the phasers using only the TMOST photos and Lincoln Enterprises film clips?

These questions may be unanswerable. Even if the props are legit, these details may be lost to time. If that is the case, I'd like to see the overwhelmingly convincing evidence that lead to these props being authenticated. Even a description of the evidence would be helpful. It would need to be pretty substantial to outweigh the evidence against (as detailed in much of this thread). I'm sure potential bidders would like to see it too. Personally, I'm open to believing that they are legit. Just show me a photo of them on the set or anywhere at Desilu, or in a still from an episode, a convincing chain of ownership, forensic evidence about age/materials/construction... Documentation... anything that's verifiable. We can't expect all the dots to be connected, but no dots is asking a lot for a 100K prop.

 

[Gregatron]

These questions may be unanswerable. Even if the props are legit, these details may be lost to time. If that is the case, I'd like to see the overwhelmingly convincing evidence that lead to these props being authenticated. Even a description of the evidence would be helpful. It would need to be pretty substantial to outweigh the evidence against (as detailed in much of this thread). I'm sure potential bidders would like to see it too. Personally, I'm open to believing that they are legit. Just show me a photo of them on the set or anywhere at Desilu, or in a still from an episode, a convincing chain of ownership, forensic evidence about age/materials/construction... Documentation... anything that's verifiable. We can't expect all the dots to be connected, but no dots is asking a lot for a 100K prop.

Agreed. It's not outside the realm of possibility that the piece is authentic, but we only have so much information here to work with. Speculation and theories are not proof, and so the only logical conclusion to we outsiders should be that the piece's authenticity is highly dubious, at best. I've seen nothing thus far to convince me that this is not a clever fake. The burden of proof has not been met--at least publicly. But this item is being offered for sale TO THE PUBLIC, so that's a problem.

However, there may be definitive information we're simply not privy to. That said, if it's only "these unimpeachable experts say it's real, so just trust us", then that's also NOT proof. To be sure about this, there needs to be a chain of custody, photographic evidence, and/or forensic testing of the materials.

The real problem is that any such evidence available behind the scenes has not been made publicly available--and may never be, presumably for legal reasons and such. Unfortunately, that absence of transparency is already leading people down the path of "they say it's real, but aren't saying why and how they know it's real, so therefore they must be lying and are telling us to just believe them". Which is unfortunate.

 

[Jintosh]

Agreed. It's not outside the realm of possibility that the piece is authentic, but we only have so much information here to work with. Speculation and theories are not proof, and so the only logical conclusion to we outsiders should be that the piece's authenticity is highly dubious, at best. I've seen nothing thus far to convince me that this is not a clever fake. The burden of proof has not been met--at least publicly. But this item is being offered for sale TO THE PUBLIC, so that's a problem.

However, there may be definitive information we're simply not privy to. That said, if it's only "these unimpeachable experts say it's real, so just trust us", then that's also NOT proof. To be sure about this, there needs to be a chain of custody, photographic evidence, and/or forensic testing of the materials.

The real problem is that any such evidence available behind the scenes has not been made publicly available--and may never be, presumably for legal reasons and such. Unfortunately, that absence of transparency is already leading people down the path of "they say it's real, but aren't saying why and how they know it's real, so therefore they must be lying and are telling us to just believe them". Which is unfortunate.

Agreed.

I used the WILL example. (once or twice) If there's a WILL and an unknown HEIR shows up claiming to be long lost and claims to have a later WILL leaving all the money to HIM......then that COULD be the truth, but saying it is useless. Simply produce the will, let it be examined and verified, and the identity of the Heir proven, and then proceed from there. Saying he has a later Will but won't let anyone see it or verify it would be ridiculous.
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Getting back to reality, here, if there *IS* new evidence, produce it and let it be verified. And that is the only way the community can really be satisfied. Claiming a will exists but not producing it would never fly in reality.

 

[Gregatron]

Agreed.

I used the WILL example. (once or twice) If there's a WILL and an unknown HEIR shows up claiming to be long lost and claims to have a later WILL leaving all the money to HIM......then that COULD be the truth, but saying it is useless. Simply produce the will, let it be examined and verified, and the identity of the Heir proven, and then proceed from there. Saying he has a later Will but won't let anyone see it or verify it would be ridiculous.
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Getting back to reality, here, if there *IS* new evidence, produce it and let it be verified. And that is the only way the community can really be satisfied. Claiming a will exists but not producing it would never fly in reality.

Without any actual proof, there could be a convenient theory or a counterpoint for every attack on the piece's legitimacy. "Oh, this prop was built by the studio quickly copying the Jein hero in a pinch, thus explaining the inconsistencies", or "the inconsistencies are the result of repairs which conveniently cannot be verified", and so on.

I still want some kind of a timeline which explains the need for a fifth (...or sixth or seventh) hero phaser when there were already four heroes. And, as noted, those heroes' absolute necessity to the show fell by the wayside with the introduction of the midgrades at the end of the first season. The midgrades alone took care of the potential "we might need more than decent-looking four phasers in one scene, and the vacuformed crapazoids ain't gonna cut it" problem. Again, as noted, the midgrades became the all-purpose phasers, and were used as belt-hangers, in medium shots, in group shots, in occasional closeups, and even as stunts.

 

[USS Endeav]

None of this matters, it is all minutia.

They are claiming it is screen used. Not one scene can be found with this Phaser. At best, it is a production made prop. At best, it is from the show and has historical significance but it was never seen on camera and sadly, is not screen used. At best, it is still a piece of Star Trek history, just not one we can recognize from any of the 79 episodes.

At the worst, there is a scam artist and an ******* behind this auction that has duped a lot of people and stands to make a profit in the process.

Had it been presented as a production made piece, I doubt this would be a 36 page thread.

I lost any confidence in it being production made when the narrative of it being screen used was pushed despite zero evidence to support such a claim. GJ's expert opinion aside, I do not think it is production made so by extension, I do not think it is screen used. As for HC, that is just a web site, manned and operated by people. Who are those people? I have no idea so that is why I ask but if GJ is (possibly) mistaken, then why not the people behind HC given they did not examine it first hand.

 

[Gregatron]

None of this matters, it is all minutia.

They are claiming it is screen used. Not one scene can be found with this Phaser. At best, it is a production made prop. At best, it is from the show and has historical significance but it was never seen on camera and sadly, is not screen used. At best, it is still a piece of Star Trek history, just not one we can recognize from any of the 79 episodes.

At the worst, there is a scam artist and an ******* behind this auction that has duped a lot of people and stands to make a profit in the process.

Had it been presented as a production made piece, I doubt this would be a 36 page thread.

I lost any confidence in it being production made when the narrative of it being screen used was pushed despite zero evidence to support such a claim. GJ's expert opinion aside, I do not think it is production made so by extension, I do not think it is screen used. As for HC, that is just a web site, manned and operated by people. Who are those people? I have no idea so that is why I ask but if GJ is (possibly) mistaken, then why not the people behind HC given they did not examine it first hand.

Of course it matters. This is the RPF. Minutiae is our business.

 

[genZOD]

None of this matters, it is all minutia.

They are claiming it is screen used. Not one scene can be found with this Phaser. At best, it is a production made prop. At best, it is from the show and has historical significance but it was never seen on camera and sadly, is not screen used. At best, it is still a piece of Star Trek history, just not one we can recognize from any of the 79 episodes.

At the worst, there is a scam artist and an ******* behind this auction that has duped a lot of people and stands to make a profit in the process.

Had it been presented as a production made piece, I doubt this would be a 36 page thread.

I lost any confidence in it being production made when the narrative of it being screen used was pushed despite zero evidence to support such a claim. GJ's expert opinion aside, I do not think it is production made so by extension, I do not think it is screen used. As for HC, that is just a web site, manned and operated by people. Who are those people? I have no idea so that is why I ask but if GJ is (possibly) mistaken, then why not the people behind HC given they did not examine it first hand.

Now that we detailed pictures of this prop (well, props) it's not inconceivable that the P1 and/or P2 will be spotted in scenes. It's not super likely, but it's not impossible. I absolutely hate the fact that stills of other props are being used to imply that this combination of unknown pieces is screen used. That's just not honest (intentionally or not).

 

[Gregatron]

Now that we detailed pictures of this prop (well, props) it's not inconceivable that the P1 and/or P2 will be spotted in scenes. It's not super likely, but it's not impossible. I absolutely hate the fact that stills of other props are being used to imply that this combination of unknown pieces is screen used. That's just not honest (intentionally or not).

All of the screencaps featuring decent hero shots have pretty much already been analyzed and categorized to a reasonable degree. In the weeks since the auction photos came up, not one person has spoken up with anything even resembling a "close enough" screencap match, to say nothing of a 100% match. And, as Cessna Driver noted, there's been a distinct lack of enthusiasm in the forums over this supposedly long-lost prop.

 

[dbuck]

I do not care that Herocomm had suddenly shifted gears and now claims it to be authentic. None of the provenance makes sense, and keeping any authenticating information confidential would not give me any confidence in placing a bid bid on this item. Give me the info to allay my doubts.
A fifth hero phaser long after they didn’t need any more and already had decent enough mid grades would be an expense they didn’t need, and we all know the budget for the show was chopped constantly. No paperwork for any of this sudden expense for a phaser made public.
The ten turn key numbers, the side ribs apart from the knob, the phaser velcro, the fact it looks JUST like the Jein phaser…..
I still say It’s extremely likely that it’s a fake. Even using ‘production made‘, which HA isn’t doing, seems to be a stretch of imagination. Using Wah’s name also seems suspicious.

 

[joberg]

When police is disclosing clues of a murder/attack to the press, they will not disclose some of the clues that are only known to the real murderer/attacker. So when it comes time to interrogate the suspects, the investigators will know if this is the person they are looking for: i.e. the person will be the only one knowing that particular detail pertaining to that murder/attack.
This is not a murder case and hiding key info about those props is, for me, suspicious at best. Again, what are they afraid of if these are the real deal?

 

[Gregatron]

When police is disclosing clues of a murder/attack to the press, they will not disclose some of the clues that are only known to the real murderer/attacker. So when it comes time to interrogate the suspects, the investigators will know if this is the person they are looking for: i.e. the person will be the only one knowing that particular detail pertaining to that murder/attack.
This is not a murder case and hiding key info about those props is, for me, suspicious at best. Again, what are they afraid of if these are the real deal?

The could be legal factors at work. Remember, these items were technically the property (PROPS!) of the studio, even after the show was cancelled. Props given away--or stolen--by people associated with the show (or not) could potentially face some legal blowback, hence a desire for anonymity.

 

[genZOD]

All of the screencaps featuring decent hero shots have pretty much already been analyzed and categorized to a reasonable degree. In the weeks since the auction photos came up, not one person has spoken up with anything even resembling a "close enough" screencap match, to say nothing of a 100% match. And, as Cessna Driver noted, there's been a distinct lack of enthusiasm in the forums over this supposedly long-lost prop.

Agreed. I don’t think is very likely. I poured over most of the clear closeups myself—when I built my own replica. Looking over my (admittedly incomplete) collection I don’t see anything. But still, it’s possible that with the benefit of this new information fresh eyes will spot it.