All kit producers read
- Thread starter BrundelFly
- Start date
MustangGTR1
Sr Member
Just means if someone in the U.S. gets something, they can copy it and vis versa..Kev
JoslinFX
Well-Known Member
Actually its you that has it completely wrong, and i will take your agressive post apart to explain it you.
1] Mr Ainsworth, and his small company Sheperton Studio props won the case against lucas film just before christmas in a UK court, and Sheperton Studios is self had nothing to do with the case, so why you think the film studio itself got sued i dont know.
2] The trooper suit was never patented, neither in the UK or US, it only has existing design rights, and rights as art in the US. If it was patented lucas would have won imideately, cause the patent office is world wide.
3] Lucasfilm lost because there acusation that the orignal pattern masters were defined a sculptural art. The UK court threw this idea out of court becasue UK law defines a piece of art as something that is created specificall with a sole or main purpose of apeasing the eye. Not something that has a main utilatarian purpose of defining a who the bad guys are in a motion picture. Because this was thrown out, the design rights of the trooper suit and specifcally the helmit, was reduced the industrial design, not a piece of sculptural art.
4] So lucasfilm tryed the design rights being breached to get Mr Ainsworth, and failed because in UK law, industrial design only has a life span of 15 years, which is unrenuable after it expires. And lucasfilm registered the design right in 1976, and Ainsworth started publicly producing trooper suits in the late 90's. so do the math.
5] When any film company, or any company, or even an indavidual person, hires an artist to product a product, if that company or person does not produce a legally binding contract on rights of any kind, then the interlectual pattern rights belong to te artist, regardless wether it is or is not defined by law as art. The film company may retain certain design rights, if the design it self for the product wasnt designed by the artist. [IN UK LAW]
6] As for you agressive INTERNATIONAL copyright shout, your wrong. Lucas lost on that ground too, when he wanted the case trialed in a US supreme court after loosing the design rights in the UK. But unfortunately, the United States Of America, is not a memeber state of the EU. When any law of another country out side memeber states of the EU is broken in side the United Kingdom but when no UK laws on the same issue are not breached, The juridiction of judgement lays in the hands of the courts of England and wales. And no EU special unique law is gonna be written for Lucasfilm sake. This is why, even though lucasfilm won the United States Court hearing, it could not be brought to trial because of this Juridiction issue, and refused to award Lucasfilm the 20mill for the breech, also US court judges were in two minds over the issue of the trooper pattern being defined as sculptural art.
7] I see rip off trooper suits all the time on ebay, every time i browse the prop section, and have seen them for over a year.
8] I dont believe for a second that you read the actual UK court findings document. But may be skiped through it, cause it was full of legaslative jargon. The court document on the final case results was split into sections to show each issue of the case seperately, you may have a read sections where it explitly stated Ainsworth broke US law, and that lucasfilm had rights, but these were countermanded on all issue as explained above if you actuall read the whole document.
As for Mr Ainsworth, he happly making trooper suits legally at his company shepperton Props. His only legal failier, is that he is no longer alowed to sell the US. As you will see from the post two threads up with the link to his online shop.
So when you have an anchst on an issue being discussed, make sure you actually have all the facts, before you start shouting in a forum thread, and acussing other people of not haveing the facts, that you dont even have you self, especially if your gonna finish your own post with: - Get it,got it - GOOD! Goodbye,and God bless.
PS: Please!!! No more posts on this Issue, this main thread was to discuss the issue of studio scale recasting, and our rights
Jonathan
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Miniaturizer Ray
Well-Known Member
You basically have it right, but the whole business is quite bizarre. You can check out this thread, and this link for more information.
The judge's decision to classify the stormtrooper as an example of industrial design essentially hinged around his opinion that "while there is no accounting for taste, it is highly unlikely that they would be placed on display and periodically admired as such" (here, specifically, he's talking about strormtrooper toys rather than costumes, but there's an obvious logical connection). What, exactly, did he imagine Ainsworth's customers were planning to do with the helmets?
PS - Sorry 'bout that. Started my post before you edited in your PS
The judge's decision to classify the stormtrooper as an example of industrial design essentially hinged around his opinion that "while there is no accounting for taste, it is highly unlikely that they would be placed on display and periodically admired as such" (here, specifically, he's talking about strormtrooper toys rather than costumes, but there's an obvious logical connection). What, exactly, did he imagine Ainsworth's customers were planning to do with the helmets?
PS - Sorry 'bout that. Started my post before you edited in your PS
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Basherthrasher
Member
First of all,I was not shouting at you,but emphasizing my point!
THIS IS SHOUTING!!!!
The U.S. does not need to be a part of E.U. to recognise,or be recognised by international copyright law. Your arguement is fallacious (false)! I read about all this right on this very site - a thread posted by one of our very own beloved members. This was MONTHS before the case was settled. I didn't have a chance to read any updates on this subject. It would've been nice if I could've read that first,but your " Coup' ContreCoup " example was never mentioned in any legal court that I've heard of as of yet,but none of this is the original subject of this thread.
Your attempt to "pick apart my post" is childish at best! You provided no evidence,or link to any authoritative proof to the contrary of your arguement. However,when a studio commisions another (under normal circumstances) once all the contractual obligations are met - it's over between the two studios,and all proprietary rights are those of the original designer of the parent studio commisioning the work. You didn't see any of the artists suing Lucasfilm for selling models of the X-wing,TIE fighter,AT-AT,or other projects they designed have you?
Yes,I am aware of the stormtrooper knockoffs available on ebay. These are all unlicensed,and they are also HANDMADE by fans,and not recast,or reproduced from an original vaccum formed suit. Now,it's on the behalf of the plaintiff,and the defendant to prove their cases,and not ours. There are certain criteria that most vendors must meet when producing a legally licensed product. I'm not arguing that with you,nor am I going to. But,the original agreement between Shepperton studios,and Lucasfilm Limited is not a matter of public knoweledge. I'm sure that George Lucas believed that he had enough legal standing to defend what he thought was his property,otherwise he wouldn't have said anything about this,and made all the noise he did concerning this matter.
There also may have been other contractual obligations that George Lucas had bound Shepperton studios to that aren't mentioned in the lawsuit for whatever reasons of privacy,as these were probably long expired themselves,and Mr.Ainsworth might have felt that this would no longer bind him legally to the original terms of the contract. None of which has ever truly been disclosed. It's more of a matter of who can,or who can't reproduce stormtrooper armour legally - either here,or abroad! It's who owns the rights. If Lucasfilm only had a patent that ran out,and he didn't renew it - that's his fault,and it's open season on armour. This is what this whole story is about. I wasn't attacking you mate,just your lack of legal prowess.
Now,between the two litigants,we'll see each presented their cases with what they both felt was their right to ownership now,as opposed to then. This isn't Coup' ContreCoup',but rather an arguement over who has the legal rights to the original stormtrooper design. Even though this was,and is Ralph McQuarries original design,and Shepperton studios produced it,that doesn't mean that they own it! It all boils down to who has rights,and who doesn't. This has become a pissing match,and now I'll release this back to the original topic. Get it? - Got it? - GOOD! Good night,and God bless.
THIS IS SHOUTING!!!!
The U.S. does not need to be a part of E.U. to recognise,or be recognised by international copyright law. Your arguement is fallacious (false)! I read about all this right on this very site - a thread posted by one of our very own beloved members. This was MONTHS before the case was settled. I didn't have a chance to read any updates on this subject. It would've been nice if I could've read that first,but your " Coup' ContreCoup " example was never mentioned in any legal court that I've heard of as of yet,but none of this is the original subject of this thread.
Your attempt to "pick apart my post" is childish at best! You provided no evidence,or link to any authoritative proof to the contrary of your arguement. However,when a studio commisions another (under normal circumstances) once all the contractual obligations are met - it's over between the two studios,and all proprietary rights are those of the original designer of the parent studio commisioning the work. You didn't see any of the artists suing Lucasfilm for selling models of the X-wing,TIE fighter,AT-AT,or other projects they designed have you?
Yes,I am aware of the stormtrooper knockoffs available on ebay. These are all unlicensed,and they are also HANDMADE by fans,and not recast,or reproduced from an original vaccum formed suit. Now,it's on the behalf of the plaintiff,and the defendant to prove their cases,and not ours. There are certain criteria that most vendors must meet when producing a legally licensed product. I'm not arguing that with you,nor am I going to. But,the original agreement between Shepperton studios,and Lucasfilm Limited is not a matter of public knoweledge. I'm sure that George Lucas believed that he had enough legal standing to defend what he thought was his property,otherwise he wouldn't have said anything about this,and made all the noise he did concerning this matter.
There also may have been other contractual obligations that George Lucas had bound Shepperton studios to that aren't mentioned in the lawsuit for whatever reasons of privacy,as these were probably long expired themselves,and Mr.Ainsworth might have felt that this would no longer bind him legally to the original terms of the contract. None of which has ever truly been disclosed. It's more of a matter of who can,or who can't reproduce stormtrooper armour legally - either here,or abroad! It's who owns the rights. If Lucasfilm only had a patent that ran out,and he didn't renew it - that's his fault,and it's open season on armour. This is what this whole story is about. I wasn't attacking you mate,just your lack of legal prowess.
Now,between the two litigants,we'll see each presented their cases with what they both felt was their right to ownership now,as opposed to then. This isn't Coup' ContreCoup',but rather an arguement over who has the legal rights to the original stormtrooper design. Even though this was,and is Ralph McQuarries original design,and Shepperton studios produced it,that doesn't mean that they own it! It all boils down to who has rights,and who doesn't. This has become a pissing match,and now I'll release this back to the original topic. Get it? - Got it? - GOOD! Good night,and God bless.
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JoslinFX
Well-Known Member
Heavens and Ministers of grace defend us!!!!
If you only read about it months ago as you stated and havent had a chance to read the recent updates on the final end to the case, prehaps you should, and once again before you tell me im wrong again.
The case is over, done dusted, never to return, no repeal, unless the United States America becomes a memeber of the EU. Which the US must be a memeber of in this particular case.
As for the ILM model makers not ripping off the original fx miniatures, they were designed, built and film in the US, meaning lucasfilm is procted under US against that. The live action of the film its self was shot in the United Kingdom, where all the prop, sets, weaponry and costumes were made, just like every Lucasfilm of the time. If lucasfilm didn't contract artists in the Uk tHats his problem. It may also be a issue of the artist being hired through a third party, which still happens now, as i am an artist in this very industry, and im always hire to produce stuff for films without any contract. The only contract i only get given is security contracts, that forbid me from revieling top secret infomation about the production.
Lucas film only has design rights and artistic rights in the US not the UK, he never had an Patent right, movie props would never be given a patent, patents are engineering and invention. [ That is Patent rights, Not pattern rights].....
You know what im not going through this again.... if you cant be bothered the read the actuall final UK court finding, thats not my problem.
PS: Please!!! No more posts on this Issue, this main thread was to discuss the issue of studio scale recasting, and our rights
Moderator, i beg you, save this thread from distruction please????....
Jonathan
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My friends...start your own thread.
I'm glad someone said this... I have two GKs. There are several I would love to own if I had the $$$$ (including the Millennium Falcon SS if kitted) But the bottom line and what is somewhat ironic is the bottom line that all of these kits, as great as reproductions and WORKS OF ART that they are, are ripoffs of intellectual property, regardless of any clever attempts to disguise them, as suggested on various post on this thread.
I completely understand the kit creators being incensed that their artistry and craftsmanship and hard work is being stolen, but in fact that is what they are doing as well. They are taking someone else design (reproducing it) and then calling it "theirs". It's not theirs. It's a copy of someone else's work
I am not passing judgment. I would buy as many of these as I could if I could afford them and appreciate that these kits are being made available whereas, otherwise we would not have most of them.
However, that does not change the fact that unlicensed creation of these kits for sale is an infringement of the rights holder (period). There is no way around that, which makes the whole topic a bit ironic, i.e., " Y is po'd because X is stealing Y's ripoff of Z rights". Granted Y put in a lot of blood sweat and tears to ripoff Z, whereas X took an unfair shortcut by buying Y's ripoff (I'm sure it wasn't GIVEN away) and merely recasting it.
All who produce and buy these models know it's a gray market business. In a gray market business, you have no rights. This thread topic reminds me of the prohibition era i.e., giving the people what they want, that the govt. (studios/licensees) wouldn't give them, but there were always the upstarts who would high jack shipments of booze and resell them for less than the major bootlegger. But the bootleggers kept the product coming......
Agree.
Which is WHY Im gonna stop producing kits.
Ill just Show off what COULD have been available.
And say NANER NANER!
;-)
Which is WHY Im gonna stop producing kits.
Ill just Show off what COULD have been available.
And say NANER NANER!
;-)
treker2557
Active Member
I just jumped onto this thread and I agree with most of it. The only thing is that when technology becomes more readily available and at cheaper costs things like boot legging and recasting will always occur. It has always been around and won't go away. People that put in a great deal of time and effort to produce a kit has to take this in consideration but shouldn't drop out of something they enjoy doing because of a select few.
Homicidal9
Well-Known Member
this is happening more and more in almost every facet of the hobby spectrum...
take care,
Tommy
take care,
Tommy
Skyler101
Sr Member
most of you guys need to setup your own recasting outside of the US
US postage is what kills me
$100 for something is all well and good, but the $40 in postage on top
i'd rather pay $140 to the creator if you know what i mean.
setup your own recasts overseas, the only thing the didgy recaster have over you guys... from my POV as a non US resident, is postage.
because hands down, at the same or slightly high price, before postage, your work is worth a hell of alot more
NB: i dont buy recast stuff, i just look at all the stuff i woulc buy if it didnt cost double in postage
US postage is what kills me
$100 for something is all well and good, but the $40 in postage on top
i'd rather pay $140 to the creator if you know what i mean.
setup your own recasts overseas, the only thing the didgy recaster have over you guys... from my POV as a non US resident, is postage.
because hands down, at the same or slightly high price, before postage, your work is worth a hell of alot more
NB: i dont buy recast stuff, i just look at all the stuff i woulc buy if it didnt cost double in postage
Forensick - Where do you live that postage is that high from the US?
My CM kit is around 250 pcs. That's a lot of rubber. As of right now I'm only offering it to RI and RPF members. I'm still undecided if I will offer it outside of the boards. :unsure
My CM kit is around 250 pcs. That's a lot of rubber. As of right now I'm only offering it to RI and RPF members. I'm still undecided if I will offer it outside of the boards. :unsure
Grant Da Modeler
Well-Known Member
I'm guessing Australia ... shipping product over there is expensive.
A model kit in a box sized at 13.0 x 15.0 x 9.0 inches, and weighing
5.5 lbs costs $133.00 to ship to Australia, from Canada !!
Contrast that with shipping the same kit to Florida from Canada ...
cost ? $28.00.
When the kit costs $200 to purchase, paying over $130 for shipping
can leave a sour taste in any Aussie's mouth.
You mean casting ?? ... the problem with that is trying to find someone
that can be trusted in another country.
I'd heard a few horror stories from prop/modelmakers who tried that
kind of arrangement, and got screwed over by the person they had
trusted to cast/distribute their product.
Hope we're not hijacking Frank's thread ...
Skyler101
Sr Member
Thank George W. for that Forensick.
I used to support alot of the builders on the RPF, and have everything sent seamail. Got it in a few months, but cost of sending stuff was 1/8 what it is now.
GW changed the law, made everything sent O/S go through his friends who direct ship/couriers, and the prices are now what they are.
Just means I have to really want a piece to have it sipped directly, or get a friend to collect it all, and send it in one lot. I try to then have it shipped through a company I can get a deal from. Its harder than it needs to be, but it ca be done.
Sorry for the hijack Fran... Now onto regular programming
I used to support alot of the builders on the RPF, and have everything sent seamail. Got it in a few months, but cost of sending stuff was 1/8 what it is now.
GW changed the law, made everything sent O/S go through his friends who direct ship/couriers, and the prices are now what they are.
Just means I have to really want a piece to have it sipped directly, or get a friend to collect it all, and send it in one lot. I try to then have it shipped through a company I can get a deal from. Its harder than it needs to be, but it ca be done.
Sorry for the hijack Fran... Now onto regular programming
