All kit producers read

The bottom line is that anything that is created can be copied. It doesn't matter how complex the original moulds were, a recaster will lump the parts together, cut corners by making a two part mould and undercut the price of the original. Quality is not their concern, profit is.

As for a contract and a buyback program. A contract means nothing to someone who is willing to obtain an item they're willing to copy, and a buyback program just gives them an opportunity to get their initial investment back once they copy an item.

Pure profit for them anyway you cut it.


I agree any kit can be copied, but only under certain cercumstances. let me explain the diference between general recasting, and recasting with expence put into it.

There are several types of ways to make certain molds: for example, closed mold resin injection/ or simple pore molds with a large sprew holes. These are two of the main molding processes use today in resin casting. Pore molds are the most common mold that most genuine kit makers use. Unfortunatelty, because of the simplicity of the patterns, they only require pore molds. I know the Salzo and Cpt cardboard kit like the back of my hand, and every single peice is specifically patterned to the original movie miniature part, which were, in there own time in the seventies,specifically mastered for a pore molds.
Any resin kit what so ever that is pattered for pore molding, throws the door wide open for recasters, because pore molds is the central skill and quickest and cheapest, and easiest molds to produce to rip off your work.

If an object you intend to duplicate, compromises your general understanding of duplicating things, the end result will also be compromised, even if you already intend to acheive a reasonable low standard. And even low standard redast have there standards.

Closed mold resin injection, is only used, "when the masters are pattened in a way, that makes pore molds unusable to get any semblance of a usable low quality casting. For example the genral X-Wing kit, has large flat undetailed surfaces that will be hidded wen the kit it built, where the parts are pored up from, and the larg sprew arm shaffered off. when your parts have no large undetailed areas, and no clear flat surfaces to stick a master to flat surface, to wall off and pore sillicon over, then the recaster, if he doesnt no how to make closed mold casting, then cast he will get achieve using the pore technic will be so poor, that even a picture of parts on ebay, will be instantly identifiable to the lamen, as utter rubbish. Unfortunately, 90% of resin kits are mastered to use pore molds, leaving the door wide open to recasters.

Ive been making professional quality patters and sillicon molds for nearly 25 years, i know what im talking about.
If we all start learning to master patterns in a way, that are just too complex for pore molds, making sure the parts are predominantly promoted with the product, you will reduce the recasters idea of ripping the kit, based on there own limited skills in mold making.
I know for a fact that the largest percent of indavidual recaster thiefs, no nothing more about mold making than pore molds.

As for the customers idea of getting an exact replica of a studio scale kit in relation to the seperate pieces, one should really reconsider the configuration of masters patterns. And draw the line between what is more important, the seperate peices looking preatty and configured to seperate peices of the original movie model, to the finished painted model, that will regardless, be identical to the shooting miniature once built.
At the end of the day, they want the finished model on the shell to be the replica, the seperate parts would be purely cosmetic for the fives minutes as they look at them before they glue them all together to produce the same product if the parts were mastered differently.

If that concession saves your hard work from being stolen, from even a small precentage of recast thiefs, then it will be worth the change in studio scale kit processes.

I spent most of ninties working for sci-fi model shops, being hired to making resin kits, and figering the best way to master patterns and process that produce complex parts that cant be easily copyed without ending up as a pile crap that doent even qualifiy as low quality, to reduce the chance of recasting and it works!!!!

And it works purely down to producing something that requires a specific kill to mold, that most recasters "do not have"!

When recasts are riped, where ever they are advertised, the parts to the kit, are prodominanly always advertised with it on show in pictures. This is absolutly neccassary, as when any resin kit recast shop on the internet advertises resin kits, they always show the parts.
Question: If you intended to recast something you were intersted in, from say an artist on this forum for theory sake, yet you could see that the parts to the kit, were designed in such a way, that does not work with your skill level of understanding of mold making, do you belive you could get the same low standard of recast than you normally would? Or would you be concerened the low quality could be 70-80% lower, and consider the financial expense in everything that is needed to do the job, is worth the risk?
believe it or not, recasters do think about this. in the 90s i spent a larg percentage of my time around model recast maker rip artists and resin kit seller paying model makers with no soul to do this. And these complexity issues are a major factor.

..
 
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Brother Joslin,

Awesome info. Agree with alot of it, but sadly, some of it is wishful thinking at best.

We actually signed each and every kit we sold. One signature is a printed in the label, the other is signed on the box, and the label.
I would like to think it helped a bit. Maybe caused a small hurdle.

Re: Wafers....our castings, are not real complicated, and yes, your wafer concept is a good idea.

However, It does two things:

1) make your kits so labor intensive, they approach the "is it even worth doing"
2) Slow down a recaster, at best.

Although, I do agree it would discourage most, it only takes one brave soul.

Thats why I subscribe to the "PHAUKEU-Method".

WHich involves a lead pipe and alot of cursing.


I cant wait to see your XWING. Id love to buy one.

Frank
 
Brother Joslin,

Awesome info. Agree with alot of it, but sadly, some of it is wishful thinking at best.

We actually signed each and every kit we sold. One signature is a printed in the label, the other is signed on the box, and the label.
I would like to think it helped a bit. Maybe caused a small hurdle.

Re: Wafers....our castings, are not real complicated, and yes, your wafer concept is a good idea.

1) make your kits so labor intensive, they approach the "is it even worth doing"

Although, I do agree it would discourage most, it only takes one brave soul.
Thats why I subscribe to the "PHAUKEU-Method".
WHich involves a lead pipe and alot of cursing.


I cant wait to see your XWING. Id love to buy one.

Frank

Unfortunately signitures on the box and other things dont actually make a diference, they will either discard it, or put it in a new box. lol ive worked with these nasty kinds of people.

As for labour intensive, it actually isnt. maybe a little more work, but i find most model makers dont treat building something they want as a chore, and do it because they want to se if they can recreate something using their own abilities. That makes them love the finished model more, because tey made it, like a sence of achievement.
Those that dont, all i can say is, buy a revell ready painted snap fix kit.. lol

I endorse your "PHAUKEU-Method", unfortunately, theyll probally be in North Korea, were neither you can get in that country, or them get out..... unless there in a body bag. lol


I am going to have to do a thread with diagrams on difference between objects that can be pore molded and those types that cant, and ill use the genral X-Wing kit as the prime example as to how it can be remastered to only molded useing a closed mold. People with the most basic mold skills can easily tell what is to complicated for pore molds. Because people think it wont make a diference. Yet i know diferent.

If you make resin kits, and only know general molding technices, i bet i can master the same Kit, and you wouldnt have a clue how to mold it. lol

I will get some pics up hopefully by the weekend on some of the very very complex parts my 1/24 Uber X. Put it this way, if tamyia did a 1/24 X-wing in a way to represent what it be if it was a real vehicle, what do you think it would have. and most peeps know how detailed and complex tamyia go with large kits.​

Jonathan

PS: Heres a pic of the prototype test idea for the skin of the wings
 
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For years, people have talked about RFID tagging in the castings, so you can verify if it's a legit casting or a recast... but the problem with this method is that a whole heck of a lot of buyers don't care if it's a recast or not, and it's not like you're going to go all over the world, checking people's kits... and even if you scan a casting (built or not) and it's proven to NOT have the RFID tag inside, it's not like you can go all Jay and Silent Bob on them, or demand compensation.

You just have to accept that once it's "out there", it will probably get copied.

Master/Cast/Sell and move on to the next one. Bob and weave!! Bob and weave!!
 
I have always looked at it this way.

Your kit and there parts are shown everywhere, exposing the obvious as to how they were manufactured. If you make a kit, that is patterned specifically to use the most simplest technics in molding and casting, then someone else will take a shine to it with the same ideals.

When this form of resin kit production happens, it becomes an advertisment to the thief who has predominanly "only those skills", and it doesnt become a recast possibility, it becomes a garrauntee.

Jonathan
 
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Bottom line is..you can mitigate it, but you cant prevent it.

No real suprise.
However, great discussion. Thanks for the input.
 
No, Frank. The REAL bottom line is THIS:

If you don't have a license to make the model, you have no right to produce it. Period.

And when I say "you"... I mean..."we". I am right in there with ya. :lol

The RPF has been arguing about perceived "artisan rights" for years. "If you only make TEN is is ok", "if you change it 7%, then it isn't considered unlicensed" (remember THAT classic?) ...ect. It is NOT ok. Period. Not a comma, not a semi-colon...PERIOD.

The studios tolerate a certain amount of unlicensed activity as it is just impossible (and annoying) to try to stop everyone; everywhere. It would also be negative publicity for them in some cases. They DO pop someone everyone now and then just to let you know they are watching. Just ask Richard Coyle...

I have spoken to dozens of studio reps in my 16 years at this, and most of them have told me..."As long as people stay under the radar, and don't go nuts, we will leave them alone..."

But then... I have seen people make a couple of something and immediately get a C&D, so you never know when the hammer will fall upon YOU.

Ask not for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for THEE :lol

Anyway...

I have been recast soooo many times, I have lost count. If I had a dollar for every time some bonehead tried to sell me a recast off of one of my patterns (and gave me some lengthy, lame story about how it was molded off the original prop!) I could retire. I put "tells" in everything I produce, so I spot recasts of my stuff constantly. I learned that one from Paul Francis.

Heck....WARNER BROTHERS sold someone one of my batarangs (or a casting of it) in a shadow box WITH A CERTIFICATE as an original screen-used prop! Tells and all!

I was RECAST by the WB! Go figger THAT one out!

And Terry at MiM LOOOOVES to copy my stuff.

But if it isn't licensed....oh well...sucks to be me. THAT is something we all have to deal with. It is the risk we take with no studio protection.

(Actually...It is a risk you take WITH studio protection...they just don't give a crap about their licensees, but that is another long story...)

Is it ok? NO!

Will it get worse? DEFINITELY!

Suck it up and deal wth it, or get out of the "business"!

(Or get a license... or get a REAL job...) :lol
 
Heck....WARNER BROTHERS sold someone one of my batarangs (or a casting of it) in a shadow box WITH A CERTIFICATE as an original screen-used prop! Tells and all!

I was RECAST by the WB! Go figger THAT one out!

And Terry at MiM LOOOOVES to copy my stuff.

But if it isn't licensed....oh well...sucks to be me. THAT is something we all have to deal with. It is the risk we take with no studio protection.

(Actually...It is a risk you take WITH studio protection...they just don't give a crap about their licensees, but that is another long story...)

Is it ok? NO!

Will it get worse? DEFINITELY!

Suck it up and deal wth it, or get out of the "business"!

(Or get a license... or get a REAL job...) :lol
I'm laughing all the way around on that one! This happens all the time on ebay. No honour amoung thieves for sure! This is why I stamp all my stuff with a serial number catalogued with the name of the person I've sold it to. Not just tells. This won't stop recasting,but it sure helps to identify crap copies. Recasters will find a way around any type of casting form that you use,so that they can make an inferior,and sometimes comparable quality cast to the original without all the hard work involved in creating multiple walled forms.

Does modelrealms' (Mike Tait) ring a bell? He's sold so many thousands of dollars of crap parts to friends of mine,and gotten away with it. I don't know how many crap copies of the Salzo kit he's made,and sold,but I know a couple people that have gotten at least one from him. He sold the ones that he was caught selling on ebay a few years ago to members here,and on the old version of www.studioscalemodeler.com before selling the domain. The site no longer exists,but the new version is under new ownership,and administration. Gee,I wonder why......
 
No, Frank. The REAL bottom line is THIS:


If you don't have a license to make the model, you have no right to produce it. Period.

And when I say "you"... I mean..."we". I am right in there with ya.

The RPF has been arguing about perceived "artisan rights" for years. "If you only make TEN is is ok", "if you change it 7%, then it isn't considered unlicensed" (remember THAT classic?) ...ect. It is NOT ok. Period. Not a comma, not a semi-colon...PERIOD.

The studios tolerate a certain amount of unlicensed activity as it is just impossible (and annoying) to try to stop everyone; everywhere. It would also be negative publicity for them in some cases. They DO pop someone everyone now and then just to let you know they are watching. Just ask Richard Coyle...

I have spoken to dozens of studio reps in my 16 years at this, and most of them have told me..."As long as people stay under the radar, and don't go nuts, we will leave them alone..."

But then... I have seen people make a couple of something and immediately get a C&D, so you never know when the hammer will fall upon YOU.

(Or get a license... or get a REAL job...)


I have a genuine concern, and its about this site and many others. Only a small thing..

How this site and many other get away with the...

"KIT ALERT" NEW Bla Bla Bla $$$$$ Order Now

I dont supose any one reaslises, but that advert in its self is a promotion of breaching of copyright.

The leagel breach is, when concerning any private industry involved im manufacter for private persons, it "Is financial gain through propogating the public, to buy a specific product", regardless that you have to make it first by order.

Yet there is this a leagel way believe it or not... [The Coup'e Contr'e Coup'e Of Copyrigt]

The Leagel way to do it, is promote your self [Folio], not a specific product [as sites like this will do it for you by the promotion of a quality model maker], but make sure it is obvious things come from molds so the public know. And then every customer that comes to you, you mail them a Crafter Contract, that lays down that the customer is propogating you, to produce a specific product for them. And that they are only paying for the final product, not anything used to produce it -I.e The masters. Tell them to sign it, and post it back to you, and payment to be payed on notification of return of receipt.

It exactly the same with any private industrial manufacture like carpenter's for example: - if you have 1/2 of a set of very unique but copyrighted furniture, its perfectly leagel for the capenter to make the rest of the set, as long as it is the public propogating him, not him propogating the public to buy a specific product

This is producing resin kits completely safe and leagally, without any breach of copy right, because its the public propogating you, not you progating the public. And this Contr'e Coupe, "Completely covers online portfolios" As not being a shop, but a demonstration of product & standards. Not a propogation for a specific indavidual item.

If this coup'e Contr'e Coup'e of copyright, on industrial design, was made ileagel, it would put every private contractor of every kind, in hundreds of diferent insdustries in the western world, in a position where they couldn't be contracted by anyone to make anything tat hasnt already been made by someone else before....

Or move to North Korea, if they let you in, where Copyright laws dont exist. But this would mean getting up evey morning and praying a thanks to the universe for Kim Jol Yin 24/7 for the rest of your life.... lol

Thats why the kits alerts worry me for the artist that produced the kit, cause if anything i make, gets promoted here, interms of an advert propogating the public to buy. I would end up really paranoid.



Jonathan
 
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I spoke with a client who is a lwayer, and he said this. As to the Crafter Contract, in the U.S. will not hold up in a court of law. Unless you own the copyright to it or desgin or license , you can hang it up.



I have built for him for many years, and we used him when I played in a band. Also the buy back, this is a bad idea as well, the reason is plan. You sell about 20 kits, lets say at 300 to 400 each. You make one of the guys mad, and they air it in public. Well the guys who got your kit and unbuilt all get together and now want the money back, you spent.

You need to keep the price low as to keep recasters out of it, plan and simple. If you dont want someone over seas to copy and run with it.

Kev
 
OH come on Mikee....like you never finger fudged a keybpard.
I meen, luke how speel sometimz.

All good Points.

Whats even funner, is when you STOP makinga kit, someone knocks it off, and you STILL get blamed for it.

Im not whining, the point of the thread was nothing more than a comment on how technology is changing the way the recasters operate.
And..unless your model is YOUR work, you are indeed a recaster.

And before you get on a soap box, if you dont have a LICENSE, SD is right, ...you are a "COPY RIGHT INFRINGER."
Period.

Tell me which is worse?
 
I would really hate to see the talent of some get shot down due to recasters like this. I for one think the ones who do offer kits, for the most part, the ships, do a better job then the big model companys by far.
 
...yeah, it took me a while to realize he meant "pour", not "pore" molding. At first I thought he was talking about molds that are porous.
 
You know, I just had an awful thought:

With all these new digital scanners cropping up, its just a matter of time when someone would break into LucasFilm archives (or homes of other private collectors broken in) and steal those models to be scanned. And then along the way, someone else would get their PC hacked into and the digital data files of the scanned models were released all over the Internet.........:eek
 
It was fun when kits were selling well.
Now its tedious. I have molds sitting here, and I need the room back.

Im going back to model building.
Vipers; Ill trickle out til the inventory is gone.

If Moe finsishes the Falcon kit, Ill mold it, and we will offer it.
When he is done with the WING (just sent him new bucks to redo the engines) we will complete the trades we promised. Maybe sell a few to some friends. I could care less about making it available publicly.
The Slave 1, is already in work and we are committed.

It happens. Its no biggie.
 
I spoke with a client who is a lwayer, and he said this. As to the Crafter Contract, in the U.S. will not hold up in a court of law. Unless you own the copyright to it or desgin or license , you can hang it up.

I have built for him for many years, and we used him when I played in a band. Also the buy back, this is a bad idea as well, the reason is plan. You sell about 20 kits, lets say at 300 to 400 each. You make one of the guys mad, and they air it in public. Well the guys who got your kit and unbuilt all get together and now want the money back, you spent.


Kev


Well here in the UK, The crafter Contract stands in British law under the Coup'e Contr'e Coup'e, and.... in the UK, any entertainment industry designs for props, or miniatures, or costums, or set peices, or anything designed for a film regardless of copyright, when it is made for a film that was made in United Kingdom, i.e Star Wars - Elstree Studios Hartfordshire, is defined by British Law, as Industrial Design, and Industrial design Copyright, only has a 15 year lifespan """which is non renuable"""...

So if your in the UK, and you produce a kit based on a model designed and copyrighted in the mid 70's lets say, then its copyright in the UK, ran out at the end of 80's

"This is why just before this christmas, for the first time ever George Lucas LOST his last copyright lawsuite case against the Original pattern maker who [based in the UK] produced the Original Stormtrooper Suits for A New Hope in 1976.
This case went to a US court, and was passed over to a United Kingdom Court, because the Accused was living in another country, and that country was where the orignal manufacturing took place, not just for suposed ilegal copying, but also, where the orignal film was made and all legal issues related to any arrangment between lucas film, and the indavidual concerned.

Lucas case: Hes producing stormtrooper suits from the orignal patterned masters that i own, and the copy right.

Artist case: I own the interlectual copyright to the "pattern design" and the masters them selves are mine under all UK legal definition of interlectual manufacturing rights ='s [Manufacturers agreement or crafters contract, either presented to the contractor by the manufacturer]

This artist won Because: -

1] This artist was not under any form of undustrial copyright contract by the contractor when he was hired to redesign the suites to fit actors, and produce the stormtrooper suits. As an indavidual artist and professional manufacture he would have given the film production a manufactures agreemant [Equal in law, to a crafters contract] Which means he was covered under the Coup'e Contr'e Coup'e Of Copyright, because it was a private contractor hiring him to make the suites without a contract, so lucas only own the original suite made for the film. Of which the contractor was only privy to final product [the armor suites] Not anything use to make them -[i.e The Masters]. Lucas could Not prove his companies legal standing under any form of film production contract, because none existed... which put the copy right law on the pattern makers side.

2] The copy right it self to the stormtrooper design, ran out in the end of the 80's, becuase the copyright of the stormtrooper design in british law was Industrial design, and the film was made in the United Kingdom. Which only had a 15 year life span, and unrenuable in the UK.

This Artist who produced the original suites, has been legally producing stormtrooper suits from the orginal patterns he created in 1976 for years, and he will still be legally able to to produce them for ever more. So if you want the most acurate, Legal, and official stormtrooper suite order it from him.



In the UK, a private indavidual collector, or an internet sci-fi model shop can hire me to make what ever resin kits [based on any science fiction they like] and i am not bound by any copyright issues, because i am being to contracted as amanufacturer to do so, but if that same indavidual or company decide to sell what i was hired to make for them to the public, only then does copyrigt arrise, and that lays on the head of the person who hired me, not mine.
I would also be covered by UK law if any kit from any patterns i created were recast and ripped of, and every legal right to prosecute that person or company. copyright of the Original sci-fi design would be irelevant, because the copyright issue, would be the interlectual right of person who made the patterns of the partticlar kit ripped off.
But if I specifically advertise a particual product ive made, propogating the public or company to buy that specific product then i would be in breach of copyrigt just by the propogation, regardless if i actually sell anything or not..

- So its a shame to hear that US law no longer protects private contract manufactures, under the Coup'e Contr'e Coup'e Of interlectual copyright of artistic design. Which effects ever single undustry in the US, [i.e carpenters, machine makes, furniture makers, car machanics, or any industrial specialist, where any indavidual person who personally manufactures items under privste contract by a private client or company, to create things, that been made and designed by others before them.


So to all you, private kit makers, Move to the UK lol....


PS: For those that dont understand what Coup'e Contr'e Coup'e means, its the abrieviation for a "principle" of opposite cercumstance that works vise versa, but only one cercumstance out of the two can be the establishing fact.
This term was defined by the medical profession in Murder cases, to establish whether a moving object hit a stationary body part, or a moving body part hitting a stationary object. This principle has been applied to many things like Law, and legal issues.


Jonathan
 
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I am a professional model maker who produced many star trek and other sci fi kits in the 90's in the UK, and producing masters for a resin kit that is vertually impossible to rip off.

Which specific kits did you work on?
 
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