Alien: Covenant (Prometheus Sequel)

Re: Paradise (Prometheus Sequel)

The xeno itself was never interesting beyond Alien, just another dull boogeyman to cart out again and again.

We are in complete agreement. The xeno is nothing more than a monster at this point.

What *was* interesting was the Space Jockey, and the power of it lay in it's mystery. It spoke of something way outside our understanding, and the fact that we had never encountered them and they quite possibly had never encountered us suggests the human race should maybe keep quiet, hide under it's 'bedcover' and hope to never ever draw the attention of such horrors.

The power/problem in characters like this (hello Boba Fett) is in the mystery and the lack of information. Because there is so little offered, our imagination vaguely makes up the rest and in our broad mind's eye what could be is always more exciting than what actually is. The excitement lies in the mystery. With that in mind, it is IMPOSSIBLE to go further or to have a story about that character without inevitably destroying some of the mystery and therefor some of the excitement. No story, no matter how great, will stop that from occurring. The only winning move is not to play. :(
 
Re: Paradise (Prometheus Sequel)

The excitement lies in the mystery. With that in mind, it is IMPOSSIBLE to go further or to have a story about that character without inevitably destroying some of the mystery and therefor some of the excitement. No story, no matter how great, will stop that from occurring. The only winning move is not to play. :(

While it is true that any loss of mystery that added to the overall product is something that's prone to being whined about, there are some things we can be more forgiving about. Even if the Engineers were something totally different but still a let down, and someone involved in the making of the film said "It could have been worse. We were at one point going to have them be humans who created live on Earth and that corpse you saw in Alien would have been revealed to be a suit." I would have been "Yeah. I'm glad you didn't go in that direction."
 
Re: Paradise (Prometheus Sequel)

While I'm not a Prometheus hater, found this amusing:

original.jpg
 
Re: Paradise (Prometheus Sequel)

Boba Fett came to my mind too :D My main gripe about the OT revisions isn't anything like the Han/Greedo hullabaloo but the wiping out from existence of Fett's voice, only to be retconned with a duff voice and even worse delivery. Unforgivable! I guess you can argue we were always leading up to seeing beneath Vader's mask and learning his history, the groundwork was there, but Fett was an inspired bit of set decoration that suggested more, much more, similar to the Space Jockey.

I know it's impossible to go further into a mystery without destroying the magic, but with Prometheus it's the Alien tale that didn't need telling. It's not like Scott had doggedly been persuing the story of the Space Jockey since Alien -it was a decision by Fox to resuscitate/re-invent/capitalise on an existing (and tired) IP. Even Scott had to be pretty much told by the studio he had to do it - the politics of film making I guess -but I think a better artist would have known that revisiting a classic brings more problems than opportunities.
 
Re: Paradise (Prometheus Sequel)

blipper, do you think he should have avoided a space jockey story all together, assuming he would have been allowed to do so?
 
Re: Paradise (Prometheus Sequel)

My
2cents.gif
, For What It's Worth...

In My Humble Opinion, the biggest mistake made in Prometheus was drawing TOO much inspiration from Chariots of the Gods. Back in the 1970s, that would have been new and cool. But now, 40 years later... it's been done to DEATH. :facepalm

The second biggest mistake, IMHO, is that they wanted to tell a different kind of story than Ridley Scott told in ALIEN, yet they kept the same, cookie cutter, STUPID, clichéd horror movie stock characters! :facepalm

In spite of all that, it's still a good movie. But had Mr. Scott made smarter choices, maybe INSISTED on another rewrite, it could have been a GREAT movie. :unsure

As for the 2 bungling idiots that get lost in the cave/base, you know what would be awesome? A "music video" of their stupidity with "Because I Got High" playing in the background! :lol
 
Re: Paradise (Prometheus Sequel)

blipper, do you think he should have avoided a space jockey story all together, assuming he would have been allowed to do so?

I think the narrative purpose of the Space Jockey in Alien is wholly at odds with the narrative purpose of the SJ in Prometheus.
Scott wanted to evoke something entirely apart from the human race in the first film and yet in the newest one he wants to bring human familiarity with the same alien being.

This seems a strange artistic decision and kind of disingenuous to the original conceit. Like if Spielberg were to make a Jaws sequel that retconned the original shark as a bio-suit piloted by a mad scientist with a beef against Amity Island residents.

The lasting impression of Alien is brutally stark - man is terrifyingly insignificant and ill equipped to deal with the nature of the universe.
Prometheus seems to want to say that man is most certainly significant and quite capable at taking on the nature of the universe.

I guess this is the difference between Scott now and Scott then, and studio strong-arming aside to make an 'Alien' movie, I think Scott has a more spiritual and less nihilistic outlook in his latter years, and dare I say less adventurous and more pragmatic view as many seem to do. So I don't think Scott should have made an SJ movie, not when he's attempting to utilise it as a vehicle for quite an opposing philosophy.
 
Re: Paradise (Prometheus Sequel)

The lasting impression of Alien is brutally stark - man is terrifyingly insignificant and ill equipped to deal with the nature of the universe.
Prometheus seems to want to say that man is most certainly significant and quite capable at taking on the nature of the universe.

THIS.

I agree 100%.

(but I still love both films :p )
 
Re: Paradise (Prometheus Sequel)

Prometheus seems to want to say that man is most certainly significant and quite capable at taking on the nature of the universe.
Except for the part where they all died. Yeah, super-capable and prepared for anything, sure.
 
Re: Paradise (Prometheus Sequel)

I think the narrative purpose of the Space Jockey in Alien is wholly at odds with the narrative purpose of the SJ in Prometheus.
Scott wanted to evoke something entirely apart from the human race in the first film and yet in the newest one he wants to bring human familiarity with the same alien being.

You guys know I love this movie (my favorite of 2012) and I think most of the arguments against it have been a bit lame. However, this is the best argument I have seen for why so many were disappointed and while I wasn't disappointed, given this POV, I can completely see why others were and now can relate a bit more to not only your view of the first film, but your reason for taking issue with this one.

With that being said, I am still trying to imagine a film or scenario in which the Space Jockey truly remained completely alien, with nothing relatable or knowable. I would think it would be a maddening and wholly confusing film. Again, part of what makes the Space Jockey alien is that he is a mystery. I just can't imagine that all of his intents and purposes could have remained unfathomable to us throughout the course of a film.

This seems a strange artistic decision and kind of disingenuous to the original conceit. Like if Spielberg were to make a Jaws sequel that retconned the original shark as a bio-suit piloted by a mad scientist with a beef against Amity Island residents.

Hmmmm... Is that really a fair comparison? Did you not like that the Space Jockey was a suit or that there was a humonoid in the suit? To me, the revelation that the head was not a head at all, was a great moment and didn't take away from the Space Jockey at all, but actually made it more complex than expected.

The lasting impression of Alien is brutally stark - man is terrifyingly insignificant and ill equipped to deal with the nature of the universe.
Prometheus seems to want to say that man is most certainly significant and quite capable at taking on the nature of the universe.

I agree with the first part but not the second. Nothing about Prometheus made me believe we were any more significant than any lab experiment and in terms of being capable, we seemed even less capable to me. We killed nothing at all (except our own), crashed our ship, and barely made it out alive.

I guess this is the difference between Scott now and Scott then, and studio strong-arming aside to make an 'Alien' movie, I think Scott has a more spiritual and less nihilistic outlook in his latter years, and dare I say less adventurous and more pragmatic view as many seem to do. So I don't think Scott should have made an SJ movie, not when he's attempting to utilise it as a vehicle for quite an opposing philosophy.

Maybe you are right. I am pretty familiar with Scott's anti-religious views so to see him include some even remotely traditional religious concepts in this film was incredibly surprising. I kept waiting, the whole film through, for the other shoe to drop and the nihilism to come in. I was actually really pleased that it never did because I think it added quite a bit to this particular story, but remained suprised at Scott's approach with seemed to be contradictory to his own views.
 
Re: Paradise (Prometheus Sequel)

Well, almost a year old now and still the debate goes on. And it seems like a lot of us concluded at the time, that NOBODY, not the characters in the film, not the script writers and not even the director, really had a true understanding of what the story was about and where it was going to lead.
Prometheus is THE single most frustrating film I have ever seen. I watched it again last night, pad in hand ,finger on pause button , jotting notes as they came to me. This is probably about the tenth time I’ve done so since the DVD came out and that’s pretty much a record for me.
It is the most singularly subjective sci-fi film I have ever seen (apart from Solaris (both versions)). Depending entirely on my mood I can love it or loath it in equal portions as I watch the story unfold.
Objectively it can be easily torn into teeny tiny shreds, particularly the very poor science, the character actions ,strange editing choices and all the unresolved questions by the end. And yet.
I cannot help but feel the essential flaws in understanding the film reflect all the major flaws witnessed in the main characters.
The most central to the story, Elizabeth Shaw, is a terribly conflicted and damaged person, having lost both parents at an early age, emotionally desperate to find meaning and stability through her beliefs and work , even when they directly contradict each other ( a Christian God created man ,not visiting bioengineering space aliens, how does she make that work???).
And considering the entire structure of the Prometheus mission revolves around the driving force of her theories its not really surprising that nothing can objectively be concluded by the stories end , because through the entire film every other key character involved sees something different as to what is actually supposed to be revealed, entirely based on their own desires and experience.
Shaw can either come across at the end as a dogged heroine trying to find redemptive answers at the ends of the universe for both herself and the human race , or a dogmatic fanatic, willing to risk the entire destruction of the humanity just to satisfy her personal craving to try and understand the capriciously creative and destructive natures of alien god (s).
Ultimately ,like most of theories about Prometheus, it relies entirely on what you the viewer WANT to believe is the TRUTH or reality behind what Shaw does against the evidence you have seen. Exactly like the TV series LOST.
And this is the paradox of Prometheus. I think Ridley was trying originally to deliver a straight story in the first drafts, then was sidined by the deliberate ambiguity in the revisioned later texts. The issue is they absolutely MUST deliver a storyline in the second (possibly third) films that takes us somewhere definite and makes sense. Or risk a colossal backlash in terms of box office and critical appeal.
Personally I’m on the fence. Part of me would prefer they left it as it is , a flawed but fantastic looking film that has provoked endlessly interesting interpretation and clever debate.
But, rather like Shaw, a stronger part of me believes there is a far more satisfying answer and conclusion to be found in the next story and film, if only they can be sufficiently patient and bright enough to work it out.
Personally I have a couple of story lines that satisfy me and help me square the Prometheus story and the original Alien without any of the obvious links and I hope the writers get close to them. But the futures never perfect is it.
 
Re: Paradise (Prometheus Sequel)

Well, almost a year old now and still the debate goes on. And it seems like a lot of us concluded at the time, that NOBODY, not the characters in the film, not the script writers and not even the director, really had a true understanding of what the story was about and where it was going to lead.

It is the most singularly subjective sci-fi film I have ever seen (apart from Solaris (both versions)). Depending entirely on my mood I can love it or loath it in equal portions as I watch the story unfold.

But, rather like Shaw, a stronger part of me believes there is a far more satisfying answer and conclusion to be found in the next story and film, if only they can be sufficiently patient and bright enough to work it out.
Personally I have a couple of story lines that satisfy me and help me square the Prometheus story and the original Alien without any of the obvious links and I hope the writers get close to them. But the futures never perfect is it.

Such is life.
 
Re: Paradise (Prometheus Sequel)

I blame the vast majority of these "issues" on editing. The cut scenes on the DVD answer most of these and other questions of seemingly stupid motivations. Why they cut them from the film I will never know.

I found the answer to that question with Scott's handling of the "Director's Cut" of Alien. He has moved from being a director about cadence to being more about fast paced action. His decision to move the mutant Fifield sequence earlier in the film (let alone have the sequence at all) is one of the worst editing mishaps I've ever seen in a film.
 
Re: Paradise (Prometheus Sequel)

I have said it before but I really enjoyed Prometheus for what it was as opposed to disliking it for what it wasn't.
 
Re: Paradise (Prometheus Sequel)

The xeno itself was never interesting beyond Alien, just another dull boogeyman to cart out again and again. What *was* interesting was the Space Jockey, and the power of it lay in it's mystery.

I'd argue against that.
There are a lot of elements that have grown from the original xeno that made perfect sense.

They went in and found eggs. The next logical question would be "where did those eggs come from" which was answered in Aliens, and done very well.
The xenos in Aliens were more animals than the "boogeyman" of the first movie. What they lacked in singular creepiness they gained in "strength in numbers" and "all hope is lost" when everything seems to be going wrong for the humans.
Aliens also fleshed out another underlying theme from the original movie which was how much Weyland-Yutani is willing to sacrifice to get control of the xenos. Which then opens the biggest fear factor of the overall concept of the xenos: what if W-Y got them to Earth?
Well, unfortunately that question was at least partially answered in AVP-R, which was, in my opinion, a turd of a movie. I'd rather see something that starts out with credit cut-scenes of an expedition team getting a queen and returning to Earth... and the rest of the movie dealing with a global infestation with the end result NOT being happy.
Alien3, Alien Resurrection and AVP all dealt with the end goal of making sure all of the xenos were killed to prevent a planetary infestation... the results of which were at least partly foreshadowed by LV426: infestation = no chance of the humans getting it under control without destroying everything.

With Prometheus, I think they've just created another alien to lump into the franchise... so that someday we might see engineers and humans fighting Predaliens on an infested Earth.
As soon as the engineer that woke up from the pod went on a rampage it went from "they've created an intriguing character for this story" to "another alien that wants to kill humans". Nothing was gained from finding them.
 
Re: Paradise (Prometheus Sequel)

With Prometheus, I think they've just created another alien to lump into the franchise... so that someday we might see engineers and humans fighting Predaliens on an infested Earth.

That scenario would be disappointing without end. I can't possibly imagine an Engineer "fighting." My expectation would be that any world infested by the xenos would simply be completely wiped clean by the Engineers, without much thought, compassion or drama.
 
Re: Paradise (Prometheus Sequel)

Well, almost a year old now and still the debate goes on.

You have to admit, either through genius or dumb luck, the creators have done a terrific job of holding our interest... and it isn't just due to the franchise... as you don't see us spending a lot of time debating Alien: 4 or AVP. :D

And it seems like a lot of us concluded at the time, that NOBODY, not the characters in the film, not the script writers and not even the director, really had a true understanding of what the story was about and where it was going to lead.

I am not sure that I agree with you that they didn't know what the story of Prometheus was about, but I am in complete agreement that there was VERY little thought or planning on setting up future movies and making this the true start of a trilogy.

It is the most singularly subjective sci-fi film I have ever seen (apart from Solaris (both versions)). Depending entirely on my mood I can love it or loath it in equal portions as I watch the story unfold.

Again, is that brilliance or dumb luck that allows for both? I can actually see how some would be frustrated, but I absolutely love it for what it is, and especially after the DVD was released and I got to see more character motivation from the cut scenes, my love was greatly intensified because decisions that defied explanation in the theater suddenly seemed more plausible.

The most central to the story, Elizabeth Shaw, is a terribly conflicted and damaged person, having lost both parents at an early age, emotionally desperate to find meaning and stability through her beliefs and work , even when they directly contradict each other ( a Christian God created man ,not visiting bioengineering space aliens, how does she make that work???).

While Shaw wears a cross, did you really get the feeling she holds traditional Christian views or that the cross is simply symbolic of a more broad-based "faith?"

I absolutely love Shaw (far better than Ripley, who was never even remotely likable) and love that she is flawed. I love that, for her, science and faith can coexist and even the proof of the Engineers doesn't cause her to lose her faith. It is an interesting concept and makes her a fascinating character in a world that likes to preach that the two concepts are mutually exclusive.


And considering the entire structure of the Prometheus mission revolves around the driving force of her theories its not really surprising that nothing can objectively be concluded by the stories end , because through the entire film every other key character involved sees something different as to what is actually supposed to be revealed, entirely based on their own desires and experience.

But isn't that what makes thes characters interesting... possibly even moreso than those in ALIEN? In ALIEN most of the characters had different motivations; money, wanting to go home, scientific discovery, etc. You have similar things in Prometheus, but for me, they were much deeper issues and almost EVERYONE had a different desire or need, many of which directly conflicted with one another. I absolutely hated Holloway and Millburn's characters until seeing the cut scenes and suddenly I saw their flaws and/or motivations and it made me appreciate both of them a lot more and while both of them still made very foolish decisions, I could understand the reason they did so. To me, this made them much more believable and relatable as we see these kind of things every day in the real world; people making dumb decisions that don't seem dumb to them because they are driven by an internal need that overrides, if only momentarily, logic and reason.

Shaw can either come across at the end as a dogged heroine trying to find redemptive answers at the ends of the universe for both herself and the human race , or a dogmatic fanatic, willing to risk the entire destruction of the humanity just to satisfy her personal craving to try and understand the capriciously creative and destructive natures of alien god (s).

My take is that Shaw simply has nothing left to lose/nothing better to do and much like Sherlock Holmes, she has come on the first bit of evidence that is a breadcrumb trail leading to the answers she feels she needs to know. The sad thing for me is, as much as I want to hate Holloway, I think he needed to know more than Shaw did, and he never will. :(

Ultimately ,like most of theories about Prometheus, it relies entirely on what you the viewer WANT to believe is the TRUTH or reality behind what Shaw does against the evidence you have seen.

I LOVE this about the movie!

Exactly like the TV series LOST.

Interesting that you feel this way because I LOVE Prometheus, and hates LOST, especially the last season or so that seemed to have no rhyme or reason, made no sense, had no direction and seemed to be nothing but a total mess.

And this is the paradox of Prometheus. I think Ridley was trying originally to deliver a straight story in the first drafts, then was sidined by the deliberate ambiguity in the revisioned later texts. The issue is they absolutely MUST deliver a storyline in the second (possibly third) films that takes us somewhere definite and makes sense. Or risk a colossal backlash in terms of box office and critical appeal.

LOL.. Didn't that last bit already happen?

Personally I’m on the fence. Part of me would prefer they left it as it is , a flawed but fantastic looking film that has provoked endlessly interesting interpretation and clever debate.
But, rather like Shaw, a stronger part of me believes there is a far more satisfying answer and conclusion to be found in the next story and film, if only they can be sufficiently patient and bright enough to work it out.

I think you have more faith than Shaw. I can't imagine them giving us a truly satisfying follow-up.

Personally I have a couple of story lines that satisfy me and help me square the Prometheus story and the original Alien without any of the obvious links and I hope the writers get close to them. But the futures never perfect is it.

Don't be shy! Give us a rundown of your thoughts!
 
Re: Paradise (Prometheus Sequel)

I agree with the first part but not the second. Nothing about Prometheus made me believe we were any more significant than any lab experiment and in terms of being capable, we seemed even less capable to me. We killed nothing at all (except our own), crashed our ship, and barely made it out alive.

I think Prometheus showed us to be significant in as much as we are depicted as children of 'gods' and possible heirs to a divine knowledge of life and creation. We are also shown to be a quite capable and significant race in as much as we are able to accurately locate, travel to, understand and commandeer advanced alien technology, and converse with an apparently superior alien being.

From the movie's beginning with Shaw's enthusiasm to unravel the mysteries of the universe to the movie's end with Shaw eagerly going forward with renewed vigour in her quest for answers, the Prometheus universe is shown to be one where the search for answers is virtuous, monstrous obstacles in the way can be bested and even a chariot of 'god' himself can be acquired in the quest to get an answer from his very mouth.

By contrast the Alien universe has a protagonist who never cared for pursuing those mysteries, but when she's involuntarily exposed to a glimpse of those mysteries she runs as fast as she can away from them, and for good reason.
It's like the punishment for stealing a look at the opened Ark of the Covenant - we just aren't ready for these things, and maybe never will be. The closing shot of Ripley in hypersleep is a perfect summation: the best you can hope for if you survive exposure to such blasphemous horrors that might share our universe is the mercy of unconsciousness. Until the nightmares start, of course.
 
Re: Paradise (Prometheus Sequel)

That scenario would be disappointing without end. I can't possibly imagine an Engineer "fighting." My expectation would be that any world infested by the xenos would simply be completely wiped clean by the Engineers, without much thought, compassion or drama.
And this is where the creation (Humanity) prove ourselves to truly be like our creators (the Engineers.) ALIENS provides the proof...

Ripley: "I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure."

Cleanse & purify the planet with nuclear fire. Methinks the Engineers would approve of the logic, if not the exact method. :thumbsup;)
 
Re: Paradise (Prometheus Sequel)

You don't get meaning or significance from who created you. You give your own life meaning and significance by your actions.

Prometheus - We Made You Because We Could - YouTube

Sometimes there is no answer, or there is an answer that is less than what you wanted it to be. I think the engineers just created humans as cattle to be the base for making the Xenomorphs once humans had been fruitful and multiplied, but who knows.
 
Back
Top