Bigdaddy
Master Member
I plan on making a heartfelt tribute video featuring ALL of Admiral Ackbar's exciting moments from the films. As soon as I finish my Prune face tribute!
Ackbar actor Tim Rose TLJ disappointment
- Thread starter ghostryder
- Start date
Ok I'm the one who is going to have to say it? It's because he's a Mon Calamari. If this was a human female actor the media would be up in arms for daring to kill of a female character in 2019! Freaking speciests!
I plan on making a heartfelt tribute video featuring ALL of Admiral Ackbar's exciting moments from the films. As soon as I finish my Prune face tribute!
Joek3rr
Master Member
There were men and women on the bridge that all died as well.
What about those Bothans? Doesn't anyone give a damn about them? They died getting those Death Star 2 plans. DIED!
Funnily enough my friend cheered when we heard that line about the Bothans when we went to see ROTJ in the theater for the Special Edition. It was hilarious!
Funnily enough my friend cheered when we heard that line about the Bothans when we went to see ROTJ in the theater for the Special Edition. It was hilarious!
Solo4114
Master Member
What were his lines in TFA and TLJ? I don't recall any of them.
Joek3rr
Master Member
TFA
"How is it possible to power a weapon of this size?"
"They have defensive shields that our ships cannot penetrate."
"The Oscillator's been damaged but is still functional."
TLJ
"Proximity alert!"
"Reverse. Rotate the shields!"
"We need to what?"
"All craft, full engines! Concentrate rear shields."
I think that's all of them.
Solo4114
Master Member
I had no idea he had lines. I literally do not remember them at all.
Although, that kinda serves to illustrate my point. There's no real reason to consider him this monumental figure in the films. He's not. In the ST, if they didn't specifically say "That's Ackbar," you'd have no idea. We know he's a Mon Cal in command, and that's it.
By the same token, I see no reason to bother including him in the films if all you're gonna do is have him say, like, 3-4 lines and then blow him up. It's the worst approach to fan service you could take, and I already take a pretty dim view of fan service from the outset. If you're gonna use him, use him for real and make his appearance meaningful to the story (not meaningful to the fans necessarily -- those two aren't the same thing). If you're not really gonna do much, just have it be literally any other Mon Cal you want, and you'll give the fans less to be pissed about when you vent him into the void.
Although, that kinda serves to illustrate my point. There's no real reason to consider him this monumental figure in the films. He's not. In the ST, if they didn't specifically say "That's Ackbar," you'd have no idea. We know he's a Mon Cal in command, and that's it.
By the same token, I see no reason to bother including him in the films if all you're gonna do is have him say, like, 3-4 lines and then blow him up. It's the worst approach to fan service you could take, and I already take a pretty dim view of fan service from the outset. If you're gonna use him, use him for real and make his appearance meaningful to the story (not meaningful to the fans necessarily -- those two aren't the same thing). If you're not really gonna do much, just have it be literally any other Mon Cal you want, and you'll give the fans less to be pissed about when you vent him into the void.
robn1
Master Member
All this is true, and is exactly the point the detractors are making.
Solo4114
Master Member
At the surface, yeah, maybe. But I think there's something deeper at work with the detractors just not liking the direction of the new films at all. TFA is too close to ANH. TLJ is too far from being Star Wars.
My sense is that what the detractors really want is something that is ultimately impossible to give them: a true sequel, featuring the OT heroes front and center as the heroes of the sequel trilogy, with maybe vague indications that they'll hand off the reins to another generation in another trilogy. Or two. In essence, these folks want sequels that would've had to have come in the late 1980s/early 1990s that introduce a new generation of heroes, but which still makes it clear that the OT heroes are the ones saving the day. To the extent they want that done today, I think it's an impossibility and they're fooling themselves about what's realistically doable with these actors.
And I get that. Honestly, I do. Thanks to Lucas' burnout (and likely that of the series' leads to some degree), we missed out on what you'd have expected to see in the late 80s/early 90s, with another trilogy after the fall of the Empire, but where the OT heroes are still running the show. The closest we got was the Thrawn novels, and a bunch of other dreck after that, which are...well, hit or miss at best. (I like the Thrawn books, but I know not everyone does.) But ultimately, that's the itch I think they really want scratched.
Some might say "You could do that now!" I would argue, no, you really can't. Carrie Fisher, for example, was in no condition to be running around shooting guns and saving the day. Mark Hamill, awesome though he is, wasn't really going to be believable as an ass-kicking Luke Skywalker. Harrison Ford could've done it, but even so, the dude's getting long in the tooth, he's always had back issues, and I think they'd have had to cut and angle shots to make it look more action-y than it really would've been. We've seen this in other franchises, too. Go watch A View to A Kill. That's what I think a sequel that prioritizes the OT heroes would've been if it were shot now.
Some might say "That's not what we wanted! We're fine with new heroes, but we want the OT heroes respected and involved!" Again, I don't see that as realistic. The balance would never be "just right" for the level of involvement of the OT heroes. There'd never be exactly the right level of "respect" shown or focus on them to satisfy folks without it also hurting the flow of the film's narrative. This Ackbar thing is a perfect example. Ackbar deserved better? Why? He's not an important figure in any of the films. There's nothing intrinsic to the character that necessitates his involvement in the first place, but even if he's involved, what larger role ought he have played? What greater respect ought he have been shown? A big, dramatic death that features a dying soliloquy? That would've stopped the film dead in its tracks. Same story with a long funeral scene and a big eulogy for him. Should he have been swapped in for Holdo? I don't think that works because it wouldn't make sense for Poe to disobey a guy EVERYONE would know and respect as an OT hero (at least, if you buy the notion of the importance of the character because of his role in the Rebellion). There's just no good balance for including him, really.
But then if you fail to include him, it's all "Oh, why didn't they include XYZ character? They should've brought them back! The actor was even willing to do it! No respect for the OT, I tell ya..."
When TFA was announced and stated to be involving all the OT folks, I was....well, I was pretty sure exactly what's happening would happen. It was always gonna be really, really hard to strike a balance between satisfying OT fans and including the OT characters on the one hand, and shifting towards the future and the new characters on the other. I think they've done an...eh...ok job, but I think it would've been better to set the story much farther in the future. Alas, here we are.
Joek3rr
Master Member
I keep seeing videos pop up on YouTube with title like how can they repair the fan base? You can't. To make a Star Wars film that every fan loves, your going to have to make a deal with the devil. It's impossible to make something that gives the vast array of fans what they want.
When the first film came out, a viewer that saw the film could, dislike the film, enjoy it and move on, or love it and become a fan. So now suddenly there's a group of people that are fans of this Star Wars. Immediately the franchise began to loose fans, it started with The Empire Strikes Back. Yes there were fans that didn't like ESB, were they as numerous as the dislike-ers of today? Since the internet didn't exist yet, we'll never know for sure.(HelloGreedo made a interesting video reading some old ESB reviews, both positive and negative.) Then Return of the Jedi lost fans. Then The Phantom Menace, and Attack of Clones, Revenge of the Sith, The Force Awakens, The Last Jedi. They've all been responsible for losing fans. Some lost more then others. But they lost some. And that's the problem. Unlike some franchises, Star Wars didn't have to climb up to greatness, it wasn't Star Trek, that took years before it found its place. Star Wars started at the top, and sadly there's only one way to go.......and that's down.
When the first film came out, a viewer that saw the film could, dislike the film, enjoy it and move on, or love it and become a fan. So now suddenly there's a group of people that are fans of this Star Wars. Immediately the franchise began to loose fans, it started with The Empire Strikes Back. Yes there were fans that didn't like ESB, were they as numerous as the dislike-ers of today? Since the internet didn't exist yet, we'll never know for sure.(HelloGreedo made a interesting video reading some old ESB reviews, both positive and negative.) Then Return of the Jedi lost fans. Then The Phantom Menace, and Attack of Clones, Revenge of the Sith, The Force Awakens, The Last Jedi. They've all been responsible for losing fans. Some lost more then others. But they lost some. And that's the problem. Unlike some franchises, Star Wars didn't have to climb up to greatness, it wasn't Star Trek, that took years before it found its place. Star Wars started at the top, and sadly there's only one way to go.......and that's down.
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DARTH ANIBAL
Sr Member
Cephus
Master Member
I never wanted that. I didn't even care if the OT actors were in it. Obviously, there are plenty that couldn't be. I just wanted a good movie that felt like Star Wars. I wanted a worthy successor to the OT and that's not what we got. They didn't understand Star Wars so they just copied the OT. We didn't get compelling characters, we got clones. They tried to play off of nostalgia instead of making a good movie on its own. And then they had an agenda on top of it which killed it entirely. And then, instead of admitting they had no idea what they were doing, they started calling their fans names for not liking the hot mess they produced.
That's what's killed the Star Wars franchise.
Solo4114
Master Member
I just want to welcome Dan Solo4114 back to the discussions. I always enjoy reading the points you take the time to expound upon that I wish I could devote time to. But I'm glad someone is eloquently stating pretty much my exact viewpoints. It's uncanny, man. Get out of my head!
Thanks!
I think fans would've been perfectly fine with it. Like, if you swap out Holdo for Ackbar, I think, by and large, fans would've been ok with it. Or swap Holdo out for Wedge, or like an absolutely ancient General Dodonna or whatever. But I think that would've run counter to what the film was trying to do. That sense of "Who the hell is this?!" that the audience has about Holdo? I think that's exactly what Johnson was trying to do. It's a technique that the Star Wars films...haven't really made a ton of use of, actually. But basically, Johnson is trying to put the audience in the experience of Poe and Finn, and then reveal down the road that they were being idiots.
We're used to characters like that upstaging their nominal superiors in these types of genre films. The daring hotshot who risks it all and wins the day. You know the type. We're primed to expect that to happen. But right from the start, Leia is cautioning Poe NOT to behave like that. She counsels him to hold his fire, think of the bigger picture, and really get ready for leadership instead of only looking at what's directly in front of him. Arguably she does this because she knows she won't be around forever and someone will have to lead the Resistance, and she sees a glimmer of real leadership in Poe.
Poe's response to Holdo is basically the audience's response to Holdo. We have no idea who she is, we don't really recognize her authority, we think she's making dumb decisions, and we root for Poe's daring plan to win the day. And then it turns out that Poe's plan led the First Order to be able to actually find the Resistance ships and Holdo's plan would've saved a LOT more lives if Poe had just left it alone.
You lose that "Who the hell is this?!" impact if you put Ackbar (or any other recognized OT hero) in place of Holdo. You'd expect Poe to defer to a known hero of the last war, not to defy them. If Poe defied them, you'd be rooting against him, and the reveal that his plan cost more lives would be much less of a gut punch and more of a "See?!?! You idiot!" response.
Now, separate from all of that is whether it was the right call to take this approach at all. And you can probably imagine a film where the slow-mo chase and visit to Space Macau isn't how that tension gets built or how Poe comes to learn better leadership or whathaveyou. But then you're talking about a completely different film instead of just swapping out Ackbar for Holdo.
Anyway, I do want to be clear that (as I said ages ago) I sympathize with folks who don't like the new stuff. But I can't help but think that what they want -- the unspoken ideal version -- is a film that should have come out in, like, 1992.
But this also gets at something I've thought about for a long time within fandom: fans say they want certain things, but there doesn't seem to be a way to give them the "just right" version of it. It's the inherent danger of sequels. Too close to the original and it's "This is boring. We've seen this already." Too far from the original and it's "What the hell?! That's not a [franchise] movie at all!" It's a really difficult balance to strike. And I tend to think that -- based on years of observation -- most fans are....well....not that creative in terms of their vision for alternate stories and sequels. They tend to think in terms of only what's come before, and end up replicating the same patterns from the original material. But if that's what Hollywood produced? I think they'd be disappointed.
Potroclo
Well-Known Member
Exactly what I thought right after I saw TLJ. That and have Finn and Rose go on a mission to hack the supermegastardestroyer or whatever so the kamikaze thing works, thus not breaking the lore, instead of whatever they did ( I can't even remember)...
Which ilustrates the reason I think detractors didn't like the ST: we've been fans for so long we believe we own the franchise. And when Disney comes and develops it differently than we percieved it should be, we feel robbed, betrayed and whatever. My sense is no matter what you do, hardcore fans can never be happy. They could have made a "perfect" sequel storywise, that's not the point. It's a matter of identity and belonging.
I personaly think Star Wars is nothing but a big sandbox, it's ok for a big company to have a go at it, at worst they'll still make nice props and visual entertainment. And if the story is rubbish there's plenty of alternate EU material I can go back to, not mentioning the OT of course.
No, the true crime is not the ST. The ST is fine. Surely not as good as it could have been but that's just because I'm jealous I didn't get to do it
... No, the true crime my friends.... were the special editions.
Joek3rr
Master Member
Contrary to popular belief hyperspace jump ramming doesn't break the lore. We have two examples of it in other content.(Revenge of the Sith Incredible Cross Sections and The Clone Wars)
My one and only real complaint with the sequels is what they did with Luke. I think they could have done a similar story, but have Luke with at least one or two fully trained Jedi to show he actually did something since ROTJ. They could even kill them off immediately in an attack, just show he did something with his life. Then in TLJ, don't make Luke be a total d*ck. There are ways they could have handled that to make him say he feels he's doing more harm than good without the way they went about it. I don't think Lucas' Luke would ever cut off his friends and family from contact. Even if he was keeping his Force contact at a minimum he would still let Leia find him. I would even accept Rey's mysterious two day Force mastery if they just hadn't totally ruined Luke. I mean I've read the worst of the worst EU novels and even they didn't mess up SW that bad! I think they should have kept Luke around and if they really had to kill him off, do it in the third movie and have him go out in a blaze of glory not the crap "Oh no he used too much Force!" way we got.
VonMagnum
Sr Member
Sadly, today's youth (like all youth in history) don't respect "old" people. Your time has come and gone in a few short years and you're considered old. You don't feel old. It's only been 17 years since graduating college. It doesn't matter. Once you're "40" you're considered "middle age" and therefore someone's grandpa (hell I've never had a kid, let alone a grandkid), but label is what it is. It's a sign that kids don't think they will ever be old until they reach their 40s and realize that 20-somethings look at them like they're mummies.
As far as JJ goes, I don't think he respected the characters either. Everyone wanted to see Luke and Han back together again in at least one major scene. He robbed us of that and set Rian up for the Inexplicably Dead Jedi movie. Did he give ANY thought to the plot of that movie at all? It's a total rehash of the original with its ONLY redeeming values being Harrison Ford did a fine reprise of Han (believable at his age even more than I thought possible since people's voices change, etc.) and that Daisy Ridley is so damn cute.... Otherwise, total crap. Any number of Lucasarts game or Star Wars novels would have made FAR better stories than having a 3rd "death star" with no explanation for where the resources came from, no glimpse of what the "New Republic" is even about (how odd that Leia seems to be an outlier when she helped create it and make it possible) before it's blasted into space. No idea in TLJ who the heck Snoke is/was or where he came from and why he seems to have Emperor like Sith powers. It's all just filler CRAP to have an excuse to have lightsaber battles and blaster fire. And yet the masses eat it up ANYWAY.
I'll say this for Ackbar's character, that "It's a trap" line is now timeless in Big Bang Theory (one of the funniest moments in that show was Sheldon practicing his impression of Ackbar's famous line from ROTJ). I guess it's ironic that was "comedy" too but it treated the character as important even as Sheldon was funny saying that line over and over.
As far as JJ goes, I don't think he respected the characters either. Everyone wanted to see Luke and Han back together again in at least one major scene. He robbed us of that and set Rian up for the Inexplicably Dead Jedi movie. Did he give ANY thought to the plot of that movie at all? It's a total rehash of the original with its ONLY redeeming values being Harrison Ford did a fine reprise of Han (believable at his age even more than I thought possible since people's voices change, etc.) and that Daisy Ridley is so damn cute.... Otherwise, total crap. Any number of Lucasarts game or Star Wars novels would have made FAR better stories than having a 3rd "death star" with no explanation for where the resources came from, no glimpse of what the "New Republic" is even about (how odd that Leia seems to be an outlier when she helped create it and make it possible) before it's blasted into space. No idea in TLJ who the heck Snoke is/was or where he came from and why he seems to have Emperor like Sith powers. It's all just filler CRAP to have an excuse to have lightsaber battles and blaster fire. And yet the masses eat it up ANYWAY.
I'll say this for Ackbar's character, that "It's a trap" line is now timeless in Big Bang Theory (one of the funniest moments in that show was Sheldon practicing his impression of Ackbar's famous line from ROTJ). I guess it's ironic that was "comedy" too but it treated the character as important even as Sheldon was funny saying that line over and over.
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