AA/SDS recasting issue...

[jeezycreezy]

Originally posted by SithLord@Jan 20 2006, 05:50 PM
He advertises it as REPLICA stormtrooper armor. Not from Star Wars, not from ANH, not from ESB, not from ROTJ. If it's a replica it can't be from the original molds. If by implication they are like the ANH pieces then that is your statement, but I don't see it advertised as such.

Seriously?.

Our new armour is an accurate replica of the armour we produced in 1976

1976.

The same year as he produced armour for Star Wars: A New Hope.

So if I assume he means that his stormtrooper armour is the same as what I saw in SW: ANH, it's my fault? Or did he make stormtrooper armour for another movie in 1976 and I've just never hear of it?

What am I missing here?

Cheers.
TJ

 

[SithLord]

Originally posted by exoray@Jan 20 2006, 10:43 AM

To say there was no contract between LFL and AA, and focus on the assumed lack of a written contract is once again only telling the one side of the story that fits your argument, while turning a blind cheak and ignoring the pieces that don't...

Does anyone believe for even a minute that there was no agreement between LFL and AA before he did work, even be in verbal?

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There's a difference between contract for hire and contract for rights to AA's work. In this case however, if there was a contract for hire, then there would have been a contract for the rights as well if LFL was smart. Even without a contract for rights, the contract for hire would have been enough. It is possible that AA was not a hired employee of LFL, but rather a freelance artist. Otherwise LFL would have presented documentation to that effect by now, seeing as it would establish their rights to the final design. The law before 1989 is clear in regard to the rights belonging to the author of the original works in the absence of said contract. Keep in mind AA has witness to the arrangement, so LFL cannot make up some kind of verbal contract that transpired. And any verbal arrangement would have to be made between a representative of LFL and AA. Was that even done?

If you need to ask everyone here if they believe or not whether there was an agreement between LFL and AA, then that means you don't know. Your beliefs or those of the RPF members have no bearing on the case.

And, there's a difference between a discrepancy and lying. To say someone is lying you have to demonstrate intent to deceive. I don't know why AA would put 2002 instead of 2004, but you seem to....

:cheers,

Thomas

 

[SithLord]

Originally posted by jeezycreezy@Jan 20 2006, 02:02 PM

Our new armour is an accurate replica of the armour we produced in 1976

1976.

The same year as he produced armour for Star Wars: A New Hope.

So if I assume he means that his stormtrooper armour is the same as what I saw in SW: ANH, it's my fault? Or did he make stormtrooper armour for another movie in 1976 and I've just never hear of it?

What am I missing here?

Cheers.
TJ

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You're missing what is a carefully worded and legally valid advertisement .
Why do you think there's no mention of Star Wars on his website? It seems you are missing quite a bit then....

Again, you are implicating the armor as being from Star Wars. From a legal standpoint the advert does not. There's a difference between it resembling the armor from Star Wars ANH and AA SAYING it IS the armor from Star Wars ANH.

:cheers,

Thomas

 

[jeezycreezy]

Originally posted by SithLord+Jan 20 2006, 06:24 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SithLord @ Jan 20 2006, 06:24 PM)</div>

You're missing what is a carefully worded and legally valid advertisement .
Why do you think there's no mention of Star Wars on his website? It seems you are missing quite a bit then....
[/b]

Oh.

Okay.

Thanks.

I get it now.

I am missing that there is nothing wrong with purposeful omissions, selective truths, and creative misrepresentation of facts.

Gosh. If only I was perceptive like you I would be okay with that. Instead I am obtuse and take exception to AA's dubious marketing statements. My bad.


<!--QuoteBegin-SithLord@Jan 20 2006, 06:24 PM
Again, you are implicating the armor as being from Star Wars.

Well what the heck else would it be from?

And I am not "implicating" the armor as being from Star Wars. (Interesting word choice, BTW).

What I am doing is assuming and/or interpreting what was said exactly as I was meant to.

From a legal standpoint the advert does not. There's a difference between it resembling the armor from Star Wars ANH and AA SAYING it IS the armor from Star Wars ANH.

Oh puke. How you can fob off such slippery statements is beyond me.

Cheers.
TJ

 

[Trallis]

Originally posted by SithLord+Jan 20 2006, 12:50 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SithLord @ Jan 20 2006, 12:50 PM)</div>

<!--QuoteBegin-Trallis

@Jan 19 2006, 11:42 PM
starkids, just to clarify, when i said AA=liar, that was a seperate thought from the rest.  AA is a liar, we know because there are plenty of things proven that he lied about such as saying his armor is ANH when it is clearly rotj.  There is more but we all know it all.  The next part was my reasoning for thinking he is also lying about the sculpt.  I feel that there is a reason he refuses to come out and say for himself that he is the sculpter, he says everything but, and tries to make you come to that conclusion.

S005 - ARMOUR - AT LAST – You can now own accurate replica Stormtrooper Armour – from the original maker.

Our new armour is an accurate replica of the armour we produced in 1976, only using todays more advanced production techniques and thermo-plastics. Made of acrylic capped ABS this rugged armour has been made not only to look great on a mannequin (not supplied) but also strong enough to withstand the rigours of costuming. The ABS matches the same colour hues of the original helmets as well as our own current range of Stormtrooper helmets so you can combine it with the Stunt, Hero or Battle-Spec range of helmets. Please note that white boots, blaster and black undersuit are not provided.

Comes ready-to-wear straight out of the box with a professional "popper" integrated strap system. We've also ensured there is enough of a tolerance in the armour such that it can accommodate various body dimensions with sizes typically varying from 5'6" to 6'2" with various builds. However as a modular design it can easily be adapted for people outside the core dimensions. Supplied with or without the battle-spec helmet this is a collectable you will want to wear.SO REPORT FOR DUTY TROOPER...

He advertises it as REPLICA stormtrooper armor. Not from Star Wars, not from ANH, not from ESB, not from ROTJ. If it's a replica it can't be from the original molds. If by implication they are like the ANH pieces then that is your statement, but I don't see it advertised as such.

:cheers,

Thomas

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not just replica.... ACCURATE REPLICA.
You can see that... but its not
" Our new armour is an accurate replica of the armour we produced in 1976"
which is what he says.

 

[RKW]

One thing is clear is that LFL has the rights over the ROTJ costumes, a film AA had nothing to do with. Prove in court that AA used ROTJ armour and....

 

[Trallis]

"From his site:
He sculpted, fabricated and produced the original helmets used for the first movie in 1976 and with the same moulds and processes is doing the same again almost 30 years later."
Now if hes not talking about star wars, he must be talking about the first movie ever made. wow this guys a genius. he fooled us all with his tricky comments where he beats around the bush and misleads his customers. we should all bow down to him.

THIS is exactly what i have been saying is wrong with him. It is also the reason I say he is not the original sculpter. He clearly just tries to bait you into making these assumptions yourself. That is the same as lying.

AA knows you are going to think he is talking about starwars movies
he knows you are going to think he is the sculpter
he knows you are going to think he is talking about anh armor
he knows you are going to think his armor is an accurate replica of anh stormtrooper armor

You can't defend this behavior here. maybe by twisting laws arouund you can make this seem legal. but we're talking about morals here and theres nothing OK with this

 

[RKW]

There is nothing morally wrong with AA omitting "Star Wars", "Stormtrooper" or "Tie Pilot" from his site as he knows he has no rights over those LFL trademarks. He may well have fcuked up over the imperial cog though.

 

[Miniaturizer Ray]

This whole talk of the finer points of contract law - Indian or otherwise - is wholly irrelevant. Ainsworth's claim to copyright is based entirely on the notion that there was no contract at all between him and Lucas, Lucasfilm, the Star Wars Company or Twentieth Century Fox at the time when he originally made the helmets:

I used to give friends of mine a hand to paint scenery and one of them was a friend of John Mollo (costume designer on Star Wars). John asked him if he could make something three dimensional, which he didn't know how to do, but he knew a man who could... and I'm the man who could.
He brought over some images on colour plates from John Mollo and said, "Can you make this?" So I knocked him something up very quickly. I though it was for his kids or something. It was a fairly early effort and I knocked out about half a dozen Stormtrooper helmets. My friend then said "Well actually they're not for me. They're for a film for John Mollo. Here's the contact if anything comes of it just buy me a drink. He certainly got that drink.

If (assuming this account is true, which, as we've seen, is quite an assumption to begin with) his friend had simply asked him to make a futuristic soldier helmet, then Ainsworth would have a strong case. But, by his own admission, he wasn't asked to design and create the stormtrooper helmet, he was asked to fabricate a three dimensional rendering - a derivative work - of the design seen in McQuarrie's paintings.

 

[Darth Domain]

Can i just ask out of interest, what is the view if someone is to actually purchase AA armor and start a show off thread, does this mean the rpf community is viewing this person as an individual who made a choice to buy this armor and good luck to em. Or, is the invidual viewed as knowingly supporting a recaster of other's work? Additionally, if this armor is later put up for sale in JY, would this be avoided with the rationale again being that the RPF community do not want to support a recaster by purhcasing said armor. Fiinally, AA did not design the trooper did he, was it not the concept of George Lucas for his film, was it not produced in artist's drawings for the purpose of the film prior to going to SDS for manufacturing?

 

[OldKen]

well at least this thread isnt going around in circles...

:lol

 

[KevVader]

DD...some already have bought it and posted show off threads. Since this topic is still hotly debated, as evidenced by the multiple and lengthy threads here, one can assume it is open to the buyer's interpretation....I don't think one can fault another for buying a recast set of trooper armor....yet....we'll have to see how this all pans out.

However, once the courts decide....then it will be a different story.....

 

[Trallis]

Originally posted by Darth Domain@Jan 20 2006, 02:52 PM
Can i just ask out of interest, what is the view if someone is to actually purchase AA armor and start a show off thread, does this mean the rpf community is viewing this person as an individual who made a choice to buy this armor and good luck to em. Or, is the invidual viewed as knowingly supporting a recaster of other's work?  Additionally, if this armor is later put up for sale in JY, would this be avoided with the rationale again being that the RPF community do not want to support a recaster by purhcasing said armor. Fiinally, AA did not design the trooper did he, was it not the concept of George Lucas for his film, was it not produced in artist's drawings for the purpose of the film prior to going to SDS for manufacturing?

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I think your question is the question we are all trying to answer. This thread seeks to come up with an official RPF stance on AA. Should people be able to sell his stuff here, etc. Until then, the green light is still on. I dont think anyone here would attack someone for putting a showoff thread. Those types of things are constructive. I'd love to see more shots of the armor itself.


As for the whole misleading thing we were talking about earlier:
I am going to have my brother who doesnt know anyhting about stormtrooper helmets or AA or anything look at AA's site, and have him tell me what he thinks AA is selling. We'll see if he is mislead or not.

 

[Star Wars Helmets]

Originally posted by Trallis@Jan 20 2006, 08:16 PM

As for the whole misleading thing we were talking about earlier:
I am going to have my brother who doesnt know anyhting about stormtrooper helmets or AA or anything look at AA's site, and have him tell me what he thinks AA is selling.  We'll see if he is mislead or not.

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Â…and the same time maybe you should ask him what he thinks about the view that the guy who made the original armour in the first place, would by viewed by some people here as a recaster for copying armour which was original recast from his own armour in the first place (if it is in fact proven that he did recast armour that was recast off his own armour)

:lol :lol :lol

Cheers

Jez

 

[SithLord]

Originally posted by jeezycreezy+Jan 20 2006, 02:47 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jeezycreezy @ Jan 20 2006, 02:47 PM)</div>

<!--QuoteBegin-SithLord

@Jan 20 2006, 06:24 PM
You're missing what is a carefully worded and legally valid advertisement .
Why do you think there's no mention of Star Wars on his website? It seems you are missing quite a bit then....

I am missing that there is nothing wrong with purposeful omissions, selective truths, and creative misrepresentation of facts.

Gosh. If only I was perceptive like you I would be okay with that. Instead I am obtuse and take exception to AA's dubious marketing statements. My bad.

From a legal standpoint the advert does not. There's a difference between it resembling the armor from Star Wars ANH and AA SAYING it IS the armor from Star Wars ANH.

Oh puke. How you can fob off such slippery statements is beyond me.

Cheers.
TJ

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Well I am sorry if you are not able to see the legal reasons why AA cannot state that his products are based on Star Wars. He obviously thinks he has the rights to his designs and they just happen to have been designs used for Star Wars. But he has no claim to Star Wars. There's nothing dubious about it...because it's so obvious. If you are so mislead because he omits mentioning something as obvious as it's a character from Star Wars then don't buy his armor...

And what facts are misrepresented? A replica of armor is just that...a replica. If he copied parts from someone who has recast those parts from an original suit, and that original suit as ROTJ is still based on the ANH design which is in turn based on AA's original artistic interpretation...then as the original artist it is up to him. I'm not saying he didn't copy GF's suit although I still want to see the interior of an original Ab plate....

And people seem to forget that AA was responsible for creating the original Imperial and rebel armor. I guess that contribution counts for nothing on a replica prop forum....

:cheers,

Thomas

 

[TKBIG]

Originally posted by RKW@Jan 20 2006, 02:23 PM
One thing is clear is that LFL has the rights over the ROTJ costumes, a film AA had nothing to do with. Prove in court that AA used ROTJ armour and....

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Uh....I believe the ROTJ suits were recast from the ANH suits with changes made. Therefore if AA did the original vac-forming buck and designed the way it looked to accomidate the vac-forming process in it's 3D form then......
yep...he did have "a form" of involvment with ROTJ. Will have to wait and see though.

Originally posted by Darth Domain@Jan 20 2006, 02:52 PM
Fiinally, AA did not design the trooper did he, was it not the concept of George Lucas for his film, was it not produced in artist's drawings for the purpose of the film prior to going to SDS for manufacturing?

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The concept drawings are not "exactly" what is seen in the final screen used suit.
GL had the concept, RM did the drawings and AA did the fabrication of the suits.
The final design of which had the influences of all three.
Whew. Spin that wheel round again Jack and Vanna, I want to buy a vowel.

Not utilizing the name of Star Wars was shrewed......
Using the Imperial Cog was dumb....I don't think I've seen any evidence to show AA came up with that.

BTW That's a good question. Who is credited with coming up with the Imperial Cog?

 

[Darbycrash]

Originally posted by BingoBongo275+Jan 20 2006, 04:29 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(BingoBongo275 @ Jan 20 2006, 04:29 PM)</div>

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@Jan 20 2006, 08:16 PM

As for the whole misleading thing we were talking about earlier:
I am going to have my brother who doesnt know anyhting about stormtrooper helmets or AA or anything look at AA's site, and have him tell me what he thinks AA is selling.  We'll see if he is mislead or not.

[snapback]1163933[/snapback]​

Â…and the same time maybe you should ask him what he thinks about the view that the guy who made the original armour in the first place, would by viewed by some people here as a recaster for copying armour which was original recast from his own armour in the first place (if it is in fact proven that he did recast armour that was recast off his own armour)

:lol :lol :lol

Cheers

Jez

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[/b]

And you can also ask him what he thinks about AA having to use a recasted MR stand for the helmets as well.

:lol :lol :lol

Cheers

Darby

 

[CWR]

Is this a record yet? What is the largest number of posts in an AA thread to date before it was locked up? What are we going to talk about when AA loses the lawsuit and all the truth comes out about his copyright infringement (my speculation). I suppose the topic will be how the courts were wrong and AA got a bad deal. I wish AA would have been honest from the beginning about his work. I wanted very badly for him to have been selling what he was claiming he had. Nothing is going to be solved in this thread unless someone has proof regarding the origination of the original sculpts that were used to make the moulds. To reiterate again, we all know one thing for sure, AA is not using original moulds for at least 95% of the armor he is offering and that he re cast the first helmet stand he was offering.

 

[Star Wars Helmets]

Originally posted by Darbycrash@Jan 20 2006, 10:52 PM
And you can also ask him what he thinks about AA having to use a recasted MR stand for the helmets as well.

:lol  :lol  :lol

Cheers

Darby

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NO...... NOT THE STAND JIBE

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHH.

And maybe also ask him what he thinks about 576 posts and over 11,600 reads on this thread, while you're at it.

:lol :lol :lol

Cheers

Jez

 

[RKW]

Originally posted by Starkids1990+Jan 20 2006, 10:37 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Starkids1990 @ Jan 20 2006, 10:37 PM)</div>

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@Jan 20 2006, 02:23 PM
One thing is clear is that LFL has the rights over the ROTJ costumes, a film AA had nothing to do with. Prove in court that AA used ROTJ armour and....

[snapback]1163890[/snapback]​

Uh....I believe the ROTJ suits were recast from the ANH suits with changes made. Therefore if AA did the original vac-forming buck and designed the way it looked to accomidate the vac-forming process in it's 3D form then......
yep...he did have "a form" of involvment with ROTJ. Will have to wait and see though.
[/b]

I think your missing my point. The whole defense by some is trying to show how AA has some right to the ANH armour because of a lack of paperwork backing up LFL rights to it. But LFL commissioned Bermans & Nathans to do the ROTJ armour and although it will have incorporated the last remaining scraps of AA's original ANH work LFL will clearly own the rights to the ROTJ armour. Unless you're now suggesting that AA could now sue Bermans & Nathans for recasting his work without consent or commission?