AA/SDS recasting issue...

[TK765]

Originally posted by vaderdarth@Jan 14 2006, 06:25 AM
Guys, the question sounds pretty silly to me.  It's "hypothetically" still a waste of time in my book.  Let the courts decide and stop trying to drag the answers you want to hear out of people who don't agree with your views. 

When you say "we" concerning the "evidence" about the case against AA.........it sounds alot like you are on the legal team.  If you are on the LFL legal team,  save us all the trouble and show us whatcha got............otherwise,  can the legal stuff so we can hear it from the courts.

Mike is right,  the insistence of some of the Anti-AA  folks to agree with their viewpoint whether you REALLY agree or not  is stale and tiring.  Either accept that some people just don't share your views about this stuff or keep on beating your heads against the same wall.    Just because you scream the same theories a bit louder each successive time,  won't make anyone change their minds about what you are trying to sell them.  It's okay if they don't agree with you.  You won't die if they continue to disagree with you.  They won't die if they continue to disagree with you. 

Let it go.  Everything that can be said has been said.  Mike's saying:  why hash it all out again??? 

World ain't gonna end based on the outcome of this LFL/AA stuff. 

We've seen the armor ourselves side by side with a GF suit.  I hope to see it in person beside my GF suit.  I'd like to draw my own conclusions if it's okay with everyone.......and even if it ain't.  From what I can see,  I'm satisfied with my findings.  Personally I like what I am seeing.  I'm holding off on a final decision,  but I see enough "details" that tell me what I believe about the suit is still true.  If I change my mind one day.........so be it.    It's not your job to change my mind.  It's not my job to make you feel warm and squishy. 

Let's wait this out and see what happens.

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I really get a kick when the AA supporters want everyone to "wait this out" while they go on typing a books worth in these threads :lol

I can see the back pedalling already
:lol

Especially when they can't answer hypothetical questions that will show them the error in their logic.

 

[Darbycrash]

Thats exactly my point TK765. By avoiding answering the question they purposely miss one of the key issues of business ethics.

 

[skyit]

very interesting very interesting..

so even Lucas is "informed" that copies are not made from the original molds..

thanks for paper work; this thread should change the title now.

 

[Darbycrash]

And note the part about the sculptures. I am curious who actually made the sculptures that AA used to make the moulds from.

 

[KevVader]

Originally posted by Darbycrash@Jan 15 2006, 12:06 PM
And note the part about the sculptures. I am curious who actually made the sculptures that AA used to make the moulds from.

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I guess this is the pivotal question, isn't it?

I'm surprised that this is such a fuzzy point, since it's fairly well documented as to who conceptualized/sculpted every other major character helmet/costume.....

 

[skyit]

someone have a photo of the painting titled "Imperial Storm Troopers conronting Han Solo, Luke Starkiller and Chewbacca the Wookiee"?

It's the proof (registered) that Lucas detained the copyright over the stormtrooper creation since the 1975 and not AA.

i cannot watch much in the "Exhibit 9"

p.s.
Luke Starkiller... lol

 

[DARKSIDE72]

 

[TKBIG]

I am neither Pro or Anti-AA.
I read the same documents and I come away with a sense that the original molds are not in LFL's hands either and the implication is that AA did not come up with the original "idea" (read intellectual property). But I see nothing to say he did not come up with the "original forming bucks". The wording is such as to convey that idea ("was at most merely involved in fabrication and assembly"), But the allegations from LFL are defensible in that LFL came up with the idea, concepts for the stormtrooper (intellectual property and see the photo above). The actual forming bucks are not counted as the same thing as the original idea nor mentioned by LFL except that AA does not have them and his product now was not created from them. The intellectual property and derivatives from it are what LFL is claiming ownership.
Because of not obtaining a contract back in 1977 with AA is the reason we have the sticky wicket to begin with.

My theory is that GL told Mollo to take RM's concepts and have them made into 3D form. Mollo approached AA for the work and the concepts/sculptures etc... had to be changed in order to accommodate the vac-forming process. Thereby creating a unique "image" that was seen in the Star Wars movies. Fastfoward to present and AA decided through some loophole in UK law to attempt what numerous others have done in the prop community, and make some $$$ on his previous work. His big mistake was to go overboard and try to make up for some perceived loss of profits from an image he created in a 3D forming buck.

Is the intellectual property Lucas's ...without doubt, YES.
Does AA have a leg to stand on......presumably in the UK he did.....in the USA, NO.
Did AA originally make/sculpt the vac-forming bucks and thereby create the "unique" image of the Stormtrooper as we know it....YES.
Did he recast GF or at least some parts of a TE/GF.......It appears to be YES.
Did he have some perceived right to do this as the original maker.....YES (but only as the original artist of the forming buck image with his perceived rights of the loophole in UK law).

Was any of this on target with the Truth............Who the heck knows.

It's all supposition anyway. If I'm wrong...who cares. If I'm right....who cares.

Although IMO the RPF as a whole through these debates may have unintentionally had more to do with giving evidence to LFL's legal team.
Hey, it's a lot less foot work for the legal eagles and you don't have to be a member to read it.
Besides its a compliment. Who of all people in the world would know more about the Stormtroopers than those who reside here on the RPF (expert witnesses anyone?).

 

[skyit]

Originally posted by DARKSIDE72@Jan 15 2006, 07:31 PM

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thanks
well there is evidence that the design concept of the stormtroopers is not AA property.

 

[Lord Abaddon]

Originally posted by Starkids1990@Jan 15 2006, 01:36 PM
I am neither Pro or Anti-AA.
I read the same documents and I come away with a sense that the original molds are not in LFL's hands either and the implication is that AA did not come up with the original "idea" (read intellectual property). But I see nothing to say he did not come up with the "original forming bucks". The wording is such as to convey that idea ("was at most merely involved in fabrication and assembly"), But the allegations from LFL are defensible in that LFL came up with the idea, concepts for the stormtrooper (intellectual property and see the photo above). The actual forming bucks are not counted as the same thing as the original idea nor mentioned by LFL except that AA does not have them and his product now was not created from them. The intellectual property and derivatives from it are what LFL is claiming ownership.
Because of not obtaining a contract back in 1977 with AA is the reason we have the sticky wicket to begin with.

My theory is that GL told Mollo to take RM's concepts and have them made into 3D form. Mollo approached AA for the work and the concepts/sculptures etc... had to be changed in order to accommodate the vac-forming process. Thereby creating a unique "image" that was seen in the Star Wars movies. Fastfoward to present and AA decided through some loophole in UK law to attempt what numerous others have done in the prop community, and make some $$$ on his previous work. His big mistake was to go overboard and try to make up for some perceived loss of profits from an image he created in a 3D forming buck.

Is the intellectual property Lucas's ...without doubt, YES.
Does AA have a leg to stand on......presumably in the UK he did.....in the USA, NO.
Did AA originally make/sculpt the vac-forming bucks and thereby create the "unique" image of the Stormtrooper as we know it....YES.
Did he recast GF or at least some parts of a TE/GF.......It appears to be YES.
Did he have some perceived right to do this as the original maker.....YES (but only as the original artist of the forming buck image with his perceived rights of the loophole in UK law).

Was any of this on target with the Truth............Who the heck knows.

It's all supposition anyway. If I'm wrong...who cares. If I'm right....who cares.

Although IMO the RPF as a whole through these debates may have unintentionally had more to do with giving evidence to LFL's legal team.
Hey, it's a lot less foot work for the legal eagles and you don't have to be a member to read it.
Besides its a compliment. Who of all people in the world would know more about the Stormtroopers than those who reside here on the RPF (expert witnesses anyone?).

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Starkids that was one damn good summary.

 

[nailuj]

I agree, good summary.

I just think that if you like AA's stuff, then buy it; if you don't, head off to ebay or similar and buy someone elses. It all looks the same from a distance.

 

[DARKSIDE72]

Originally posted by Starkids1990@Jan 15 2006, 01:36 PM

The intellectual property and derivatives from it are what LFL is claiming ownership.

Exactly anything and everything Star Wars is the intellectual property of LFL.

Because of not obtaining a contract back in 1977 with AA is the reason we have the sticky wicket to begin with.

LFL hired work to be done. They still own the rights to it.


Is the intellectual property Lucas's ...without doubt, YES.
Does AA have a leg to stand on......presumably in the UK he did.....in the USA, NO.

Did AA originally make/sculpt the vac-forming bucks and thereby create the "unique" image of the Stormtrooper as we know it....YES.

There is no proof AA sculped squat. The only thing he did for a fact was vacume form.


Did he recast GF or at least some parts of a TE/GF.......It appears to be YES.

Did he have some perceived right to do this as the original maker.....YES (but only as the original artist of the forming buck image with his perceived rights of the loophole in UK law).

WHAT loophole?

Although IMO the RPF as a whole through these debates may have unintentionally had more to do with giving evidence to LFL's legal team.

They don't need any help... :lol

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[Darth Kahnt]

Originally posted by nailuj@Jan 15 2006, 04:31 PM
I just think that if you like AA's stuff, then buy it; if you don't, head off to ebay or similar and buy someone elses. It all looks the same from a distance.

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I agree.

 

[TKBIG]

Originally posted by DARKSIDE72@Jan 15 2006, 04:32 PM
There is no proof AA sculped squat. The only thing he did for a fact was vacume form.

Darkside72 while your busily hitting your quote button you failed to read and understand the meaning of the the statement from LFL themselves......"was at most merely involved in fabrication and assembly".

This entire phrasing in the court documents is good legal speak to state that the "intellectual property" still belongs to LFL. It is meant to lessen in the courts eyes any input that AA did on the final "look" of the Stormtrooper parts AND over emphasize that the original source of all Star Wars images rightfully came from LFL.

The document did not state that AA DID NOT fabricate the vac-forming bucks. The document states that AA "was at most merely involved in fabrication and assembly".

The bucks themselves had to be designed with changes made from the sculpts/artwork presented by LFL to facilitate the vac-forming process.

As anyone can see by the differences in the details of the RM paintings and all preproduction artwork images seen to date of stormtroopers presented by LFL compared to a picture of the costume parts actually used to create Stormtrooper armor.

This idea of AA not sculpting squat is a new idea presented and accepted as fact only recently. And that in face of a host of members or former members here whose opinions and knowledge I deeply respect in the past having stated before their belief that AA was the man who came up with the vac forming bucks that created the Stormtrooper image seen on screen. These same people having sought out and interviewed AA for the purpose of gleaning information on how the Stormtrooper armor came into existence.

Lets replay this for those who want to be argumentative only and not debate 30 years of accepted prop history:
George Lucas had the idea.....Ralph McQuarrie had the concept and created artworks. Andrew Ainsworth created the vac-forming bucks themselves.

The design of the bucks which were used in the production of the original suits ultimately came from
#1 GL's idea,
#2 RM's artwork
#3 AA's own knowledge of the vac-forming buck making process.
All of these collected participants put work into what became the 3D model that we all see as Stormtrooper armor.

AND you forgot one of my most important statements to quote:

"It's all supposition anyway. If I'm wrong...who cares. If I'm right....who cares.

Seems no one is susposed to have any opinion other than AA is wrong, wrong, wrong and should have his name removed permanently from any part of the production history of Starwars.

Since I personally believe that AA will lose the court case here in the USA the old adages will apply:
"To the winner go the spoils"
as well as
"Only the winners remain to write the history books"

 

[vaderdarth]

Starkids, that's a very fair summary in my book. It's refreshingly non biased

Dave

 

[Qui-Gonzalez]

Originally posted by Starkids1990+Jan 15 2006, 06:45 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Starkids1990 @ Jan 15 2006, 06:45 PM)</div>

<!--QuoteBegin-DARKSIDE72

@Jan 15 2006, 04:32 PM
There is no proof AA sculped squat. The only thing he did for a fact was vacume form.

Darkside72 while your busily hitting your quote button you failed to read and understand the meaning of the the statement from LFL themselves......"was at most merely involved in fabrication and assembly".

This entire phrasing in the court documents is good legal speak to state that the "intellectual property" still belongs to LFL. It is meant to lessen in the courts eyes any input that AA did on the final "look" of the Stormtrooper parts AND over emphasize that the original source of all Star Wars images rightfully came from LFL.

The document did not state that AA DID NOT fabricate the vac-forming bucks. The document states that AA "was at most merely involved in fabrication and assembly".

The bucks themselves had to be designed with changes made from the sculpts/artwork presented by LFL to facilitate the vac-forming process.

As anyone can see by the differences in the details of the RM paintings and all preproduction artwork images seen to date of stormtroopers presented by LFL compared to a picture of the costume parts actually used to create Stormtrooper armor.

This idea of AA not sculpting squat is a new idea presented and accepted as fact only recently. And that in face of a host of members or former members here whose opinions and knowledge I deeply respect in the past having stated before their belief that AA was the man who came up with the vac forming bucks that created the Stormtrooper image seen on screen. These same people having sought out and interviewed AA for the purpose of gleaning information on how the Stormtrooper armor came into existence.

Lets replay this for those who want to be argumentative only and not debate 30 years of accepted prop history:
George Lucas had the idea.....Ralph McQuarrie had the concept and created artworks. Andrew Ainsworth created the vac-forming bucks themselves.

The design of the bucks which were used in the production of the original suits ultimately came from
#1 GL's idea,
#2 RM's artwork
#3 AA's own knowledge of the vac-forming buck making process.
All of these collected participants put work into what became the 3D model that we all see as Stormtrooper armor.

AND you forgot one of my most important statements to quote:

"It's all supposition anyway. If I'm wrong...who cares. If I'm right....who cares.

Seems no one is susposed to have any opinion other than AA is wrong, wrong, wrong and should have his name removed permanently from any part of the production history of Starwars.

Since I personally believe that AA will lose the court case here in the USA the old adages will apply:
"To the winner go the spoils"
as well as
"Only the winners remain to write the history books"

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[/b]

All good points, Starkids. The other thing that caught my eye, as I pointed out earlier, is LFL's belief that AA is not in possession of the original molds and saying his website basically lies. This is what leads me back to the original subject of this thread. LFL believes AA is using recast/modded/unoriginal parts, copyright infringement aside.

AA is just basically trying to make a buck off of his involvement in ANH. In what capacity was he involved? Only he and LFL know for sure and neither one are really telling it in plain, dumb English. As far as him sculpting or merely vacuum forming, same thing goes...only those two parties know for sure.

 

[imaginager]

Hmm.

http://www.rpf.invisionzone.com/index.php?...dpost&p=1141246

And, hmm.

http://www.rpf.invisionzone.com/index.php?...dpost&p=1157151

 

[Lord Abaddon]

Starkids, once again an excellent summation. Frankly I think your assumptions probably come closest to reality of anyone's.

BTW...welcome to the Merry-Go-Round (sometimes known as The Gauntlet). :lol

 

[exoray]

Originally posted by Starkids1990@Jan 15 2006, 05:45 PM
Darkside72 while your busily hitting your quote button you failed to read and understand the meaning of the the statement from LFL themselves......"was at most merely involved in fabrication and assembly".

And my the same tolken only quoting the part that fits into your scenerio doesn't provide the whole meaning of the written words either...

was at most merely involved in the fabrication and assembly of parts based on Plaintiff's artwork, drawings, models and sculptures

 

[TKBIG]

Originally posted by exoray+Jan 15 2006, 06:57 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(exoray @ Jan 15 2006, 06:57 PM)</div>

<!--QuoteBegin-Starkids1990

@Jan 15 2006, 05:45 PM
Darkside72 while your busily hitting your quote button you failed to read and understand the meaning of the the statement from LFL themselves......"was at most merely involved in fabrication and assembly".

And my the same tolken only quoting the part that fits into your scenerio doesn't provide the whole meaning of the written words either...

was at most merely involved in the fabrication and assembly of parts based on Plaintiff's artwork, drawings, models and sculptures

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[/b]

But exoray you yourself left out my expository on that very section you fully quoted:

"This entire phrasing in the court documents is good legal speak to state that the "intellectual property" still belongs to LFL. It is meant to lessen in the courts eyes any input that AA did on the final "look" of the Stormtrooper parts AND over emphasize that the original source of all Star Wars images rightfully came from LFL."

My intent is to focus on what is the actually wording used in the court document. The wording of which, can in itself be interpretated quite differently than what has been so far presented.

This quote/quote/quote gymnastics in symantics that play out on this thread
is unproductive and boring.

If anyone can produce the name of another artist connected to the actually making (sculpting) of the vac-form buck that led to the creation of the Stormtrooper armor then by all means share this information for posterities sake so we all have a more clear picture of how our beloved props where created.

So far all evidence presented by LFL has showed a similarity to but not an exact match for the results of the vac-form buck that was used. Credit for the creating of which was given to AA over the last 30 years of documented prop history
AND in the very court document we are now speaking about.

Likewise AA's current products have shown a striking dissimilarity in results to those very same vac-forming bucks that created the original armor seen on screen.

Also as a related but off topic statement I want to thank you exoray for hosting that information. I hope you can tell that for the most part I am in agreement with your views of the AA recast issue.