48fps: The Ultimate Battle Of Art vs Tech

Wait. Is it frame interpolation, or is it actually capturing 48fps? I think the problem with interpolation is that the monitor is "guessing" where things are in the scene, and therefore displays what likely happened between frame A and B. It may not always get it right, and that's where it starts to look unnatural and "too smooth." Actually capturing 48fps, though, I'd figure would at least look better than the motion interpolation stuff you see on LCD TVs.
 
Wait. Is it frame interpolation, or is it actually capturing 48fps? I think the problem with interpolation is that the monitor is "guessing" where things are in the scene, and therefore displays what likely happened between frame A and B. It may not always get it right, and that's where it starts to look unnatural and "too smooth." Actually capturing 48fps, though, I'd figure would at least look better than the motion interpolation stuff you see on LCD TVs.

Quote from Jackson...

"We are indeed shooting at the higher frame rate. The key thing to understand is that this process requires both shooting and projecting at 48 frames/s, rather than the usual 24 frames/s (The great majority of films have been shot at 24 frames per second since the late 1920s)."

Looks like they're genuinely shooting it at 48fps. No digital guess work involved.
 
some are not grasping the concept here. im pretty sure 90% here wouldnt be able to tell the difference between undedited 24 and 48 fps. its what comes via vfx, color correction etc, that makes the movie feeling, also partly the Lenses on the cameras. im not saying im happy with the change, because some things just dont look right for me in 48 frames. its not allways good to get stuff too detailed. But for example, if you do a pan shot from the left to the right in a developing shot, in a fully finished scene on film, you probably wouldnt be able to tell if its 48 or 24 or anything else. Its not just the framerate that makes a video.

It's the frame rate and ONLY the frame rate. Here's why: when I slow down video I've shot on my camcorder to half the frame rate it suddenly stops looking like video and LOOKS LIKE FILM - cheap film but nevertheless film - you don't need fancy lenses or VFX to obtain 'film'. It looks so much like film I slow every damn thing I shoot to half frame-rate. A TV editor friend explained, yes, vid looks more boringly real than film cos it's giving you effectively more fps. To get that classy, distanced look of film you have to reduce the amount of frames.
 
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Assuming they haven't done so already, they should release a LOTR teaser in 48fps so we can see what it looks like.
 
Someone prophesies the end of movies ... never heard that one before. So it's not old standard vs new standard, it's art vs tech; not only is it a battle, but the ultimate battle. Seriously?
No, probably not seriously. More likely just a figure of speech.

Since you hope they improve the 48fps presentation, have you already seen it at its current state? I haven't and am looking forward to it.
I haven't and I am looking forward to it as well. It's not just that article writer, many others at CinemaCon have witnessed that footage presentation and concluded that though the landscape shots looks great, the sets tend to look too real like a set. Whether that change in FPS is really vital for feature films needs to be seen. So yeah before it's entrusted upon theatres, IF it still needs improvement I do hope they take that into consideration. As witnessed with 3D films some still continue to suffer sometimes with blurry and too dark images.
 
its to hard to judge what its going to be like.
the idea was to make it less strenuous on the eyes for 3D. a smoother transition. since the film isn't post production...film grain can be added to reduce "the overly clarified detail". its hard to say without seeing a post production snipet to know what's what. the idea behind it was sound...but what does that mean to us home theater people...new equipment. 4k projectors are just hitting with shelves with nothing natively produced in 4k. i'll reserve judgement for some post production viewing.
 
I don't have a problem with this "experiment" as long as it can be backed down to 24fps without ill affects -- if necessary.




Doug
 
I don't have a problem with this "experiment" as long as it can be backed down to 24fps without ill affects -- if necessary.




Doug
We've already seen it. The trailer we saw in December was 24fps, taken from 48fps source. The only noticeable difference is less motion blur, and even then only when you're looking for it.
 
We've already seen it. The trailer we saw in December was 24fps, taken from 48fps source. The only noticeable difference is less motion blur, and even then only when you're looking for it.

Well, there ya go. If that's the case, all is well.

PS
I haven't seen the trailer yet.




Doug
 
I bought a new TV this weekend. It has a 240hz refresh rate. After hooking it up I headed straight to an HD channel to check it out. Inception was playing on HBO.

WEIRD LOOKING!

It had a soap opera look to it, and call me crazy, but its like someone turned on the bad acting button. They just looked weird.

I switched it to a lower setting and it looked normal.

I went back and forth, looking at different channels and just couldnt get used to it.

Action scenes looked less real. With no motion blur, it was like someone with a home video camera recorded his friends doing some stunts. The snowmobile scenes in Inception for instance were just less intense, kinda like they were in slow motion.

I couldn't understand what people meant by looking "too good" until I saw it for myself.

I usually like everything. I love 3D! But is this what I can expect the Hobbit to look like in the theatre? It will take me a while to get used to it.
 
I bought a new TV this weekend. It has a 240hz refresh rate. After hooking it up I headed straight to an HD channel to check it out. Inception was playing on HBO.

WEIRD LOOKING!

It had a soap opera look to it, and call me crazy, but its like someone turned on the bad acting button. They just looked weird.

I switched it to a lower setting and it looked normal.

I went back and forth, looking at different channels and just couldnt get used to it.

Action scenes looked less real. With no motion blur, it was like someone with a home video camera recorded his friends doing some stunts. The snowmobile scenes in Inception for instance were just less intense, kinda like they were in slow motion.

I couldn't understand what people meant by looking "too good" until I saw it for myself.

I usually like everything. I love 3D! But is this what I can expect the Hobbit to look like in the theatre? It will take me a while to get used to it.

I made this post about 4 months ago. Since then I actually prefer the high fram rate. I especially enhances old classic movies.

If I had not gotten used to it before seeing the Hobbit, I'm sure my reaction would be mixed as well.

I think 3D and HFR are here to stay. Anything that looks better will stay. If they put Blade Runner 3D HFR in a theatre, I would buy 10 tickets.
 
They're only here to stay because they know they can gouge an extra few bucks to the ticket price out of you.
 
I still have yet to see a HFR film, but I've watched plenty of 24fps stuff displayed on TVs running high motion interpolation.

It SUCKS to look at.

It doesn't look filmic, and if anything, it really takes me out of the immersive experience of a film because I've gone too deep into the "uncanny valley."


That said, I'm also reading some interesting stuff about 48fps, 3D, and fast action sequences, as well as lighting.


I think part of what we're seeing is that the technology is not yet at a point where it's effectively married to filmmaking techniques, with the end result looking like a stage play. In essence, this destroys one of the most effective aspects of film: the illusion that what you're watching is "real."


We've seen this issue come up frequently in discussions about CGI. Too much CGI looks "fake." This is often not because CGI itself is inherently crappy. Certainly Jurassic Park is a testament to the contrary. But the problem is that CGI WHEN DONE POORLY looks like crap. My bet is the same is true of 48fps.



Maybe the solution is something like adapting lighting and/or propmaking techniques. Maybe CGI animators are going to have to render less motion blur and render more detailed images to match with what's on screen. Maybe makeup and costume and set dressing all will need to be adjusted for the new technology.


From the sound of it, 48fps CAN be used effectively in the right moments, with the right presentation. Lots of discussions of the 3D action sequences in the new Hobbit film seem to talk about how they looked much better than 3D action sequences in previous films. So, maybe the solution is not to shoot entire films in 48fps, but rather specific sequences.

Of course, the real dilemma will be in how this is all marketed. 3D seems to be clinging on by its fingernails, but that's mostly because studios seem to have no other better options (like, say, "stop making so many s***y films and relying on marketing to save your asses for a weekend."). So, i fully expect that we'll see a period of filmmakers shoving this down our throats, and it being rejected....because it's being done really poorly. Eventually, though, there will be some good examples of what can be done with 48fps.

For everyone who's complained about crappy 3D, people DO talk about how films like Hugo and Avatar (and even some discussions here about Dredd) make very effective use of the technology. So, it strikes me that, much like CGI, rather than being a panacea for what ails the industry, HFR will become another tool in the toolbox for filmmakers. As long as it's done well and not used improperly, I expect folks will find it to be fine. Where it becomes a marketing tool or a one-size-fits-all solution is where it'll fail.
 
I wonder if the Transformers movies would be better in HFR? maybe I would be able to distinguish one robot from another when they were fighting.
 
lets not kid ourselves

the new Hobbit movie looks crystal clear, but it doesn't look like what we have come to know as "filmic" or "cinematic".

It was too sharp and lacked that special magic that a rolling film reel gives.

Ive seen digital movies which are hard to tell from film because they have used great lenses, and some post grading, so you can't even tell.

The main reason why The Hobbit and Avatar just don't look filmic enough, is because of the lenses they used.

In particular when i watched Avatar in 3D, the 3D was kind of masking how poor the digital look was when you actually watch it in 2D.

The Hobbit was better looking, but still gave off a cheap TV movie vibe.

If thats your stylistic intention, then thats no problem. But trying to say that this "looks better" than film is frankly a joke.

Nothing matches film perfectly yet.

Its one of the reasons why Wally Pfister (probably the greatest cinematographer around today) still only uses film.
 
For me personally, it was the best 3D I've ever seen. I forgot I was wearing glasses. I truly enjoyed the experience. :)
 
Hated the 48fps. If the camera moved it looked like watching a DVD on 1xFF. As long as the camera was still it was fine. If this is the future of films...er....digital files...then I'm out.
 
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