12 Monkeys question

[SSgt Burton]

Okay I watched this movie in the theater when it was released in 1995. Hadn't watched it since until the other night (I've owned the dvd for years but never got around to rewatching the film until now).

So this is a time travel movie and (my take on) the main theme is that time is unchangable. The past is set, and you can't undo things. Even attempting to do so will result in "it was supposed to happen that way after all".


(This movie is over 15 years old... But I'm going to say "Spoilers ahead" anyway just in case someone is curious to watch it. )





















My question (that I haven't quite figured out just yet) is: did sending James Cole into 1990 (by accident) actually set the events in motion that causes the virus to be released?

The key is that the virus creator, Dr. Leland Goines orders his assistant to change the codes to (I assume) the vault the viruses are kept in, and instructs him not to tell Dr. Goines what the new codes are.

This is meant as a preemptive move in anticipation of a biological terrorist act by the "Army of the 12 Monkeys", should they try to kidnap Dr. Goines to get the vault codes to steal the virus.

The reason he knows about the upcoming attack by the Army of the 12 Monkeys is that he is forewarned by the psychiatrist Dr. Kathryn Railly.

Dr. Railly knows about the 12 Monkeys because she has been told about them by James Cole who is from the future and knows what is going to happen.


The problem is that the Army of the 12 Monkeys never planned to steal and release the virus- they just planned on releasing animals in the local zoo.


The real person responsible for releasing the deadly virus is Dr. Goines assistant who had been given the access codes to the vault. He is actually an apocalypse nut and hates humanity.


Sooooo...

If Cole had not been sent into the past, Dr. Railly would not have warned Dr. Goines about the 12 Monkeys, who in turn would not have ordered his assistant to change the codes to the vault, and therefore would not have been able to steal/release the virus. Humanity would not have been wiped out.

If the scientists of the future had not tried to "mess with the past", none of this would have happened.


Is that about right? :lol


Kevin

 

[ThrowingChicken]

Hrm, I would have to watch it again, but I always thought David Morse's character had been planning this for a while now, but that the access code scene was just to to continue stringing the audience along to show that the good doctor actually did believe his son could possibly do something so terrible.

 

[darthgordon]

I believe that the assistant had access codes to start with... otherwise he wouldn't have been able to change them. So it would have happened anyway.

However, the memories Bruce Willis' character describes (I don't remember his name, as it's been a while) from his childhood, indicate that it was still a sort of pre-destination paradox.

I don't think there was really an underlying point or message to the movie about time travel. It was really more about the irony of going the whole movie thinking the 12 Monkeys were responsible, when in fact they weren't. The whole time, these people that are outwardly crazy are blamed... they're outside the establishment. When in fact it was the seemingly normal person within the establishment that was responsible.

I think it's more about not taking things at face value.

 

[Nexus6]

I believe that the assistant had access codes to start with... otherwise he wouldn't have been able to change them. So it would have happened anyway.

However, the memories Bruce Willis' character describes (I don't remember his name, as it's been a while) from his childhood, indicate that it was still a sort of pre-destination paradox.

I don't think there was really an underlying point or message to the movie about time travel. It was really more about the irony of going the whole movie thinking the 12 Monkeys were responsible, when in fact they weren't. The whole time, these people that are outwardly crazy are blamed... they're outside the establishment. When in fact it was the seemingly normal person within the establishment that was responsible.

I think it's more about not taking things at face value.

I've been a huge fan of this movie for years; it's seriously underrated, imo. And I concur with all ^THAT^.

 

[SSgt Burton]

Yeah I think you guys are right that the assistant had the code all along.

I just rewatched the scene with Dr. Goines talking to the assistant after Dr. Railly warns him about the 12 Monkeys.

He merely tells his assistant to "beef up" security just in case she's right.

It isn't until he is actually kidnapped by the 12 Monkeys that he tells his son Jeffery that he "doesn't have the access codes anymore".


So that's that I guess. :lol


However I do believe the story has some deep time paradox roots.


The scientists of the future believe the Army of the 12 Monkeys is responsible for releasing the virus. All of their efforts center around this group.

James Cole travels into the past looking to find the 12 Monkeys group. In doing so he convinces Kathryn that they are responsible for the virus and the end of the World. However there is always the possibility that James is simply insane and that nothing is going to happen.

(As a joke) She calls a telephone number that James is supposed to use when he finds out how/where the 12 Monkeys are going to release the virus.

She leaves a message on a voicemail jokingly saying that the Army of the 12 Monkeys is going to be responsible for ending the World.

This voicemail message is reconstructed in the future and is what leads the scientists to center all their attention on this group.


So- The scientists of the future believe the 12 Monkeys release the virus because of the voicemail message...

The send Cole into the past to look for them...

Cole tells Kathryn about the 12 Monkeys...

She leaves the voicemail message which is heard in the future.


It's a loop- Kathryn knows about the 12 Monkeys because (in essence) she was told about them by the scientists of the future, who are told about the 12 Monkeys by Kathryn's voicemail message.


Now the scientists have other evidence about the 12 Monkeys, however it is the voicemail message that is the clincher convincing them (albeit wrongly) that they are responsible.


I knew this "loop" actually has a name in time paradoxes- the Ontological Paradox:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontological_paradox



Kevin

 

[terryr]

It's called the Movie Plot Device.

Young Cole sees old Cole get killed. But why is he there? It seems he came with his parents and left with them. Maybe the killing spooked them and they cancelled, thus they didn't breathe the virus and Cole lived.

 

[CaptainSuperman]

I'm going off memory here, but I wanted to say that in the last scene of the movie you see a few of the scientists from the future on the same plane with the man who intends on releasing the virus.

You never actually see the man release the virus and since the scientists appeared to be the same age they were in the future, I always took it to mean that they had gone back in time with the new information to stop him from causing the outbreak. But again, I have not seen the movie in a long time, so I could be way off.

 

[Too Much Garlic]

They believe it's the Army of the Twelve Monkeys because of the banners they made that said: WE DID IT. It's only natural for post catastrophe people to assume that they are talking about the virus.

I love this movie because it has the same time travel scenario as the first Terminator movie (screw the rest). Time is fixed. You can't change squat. Cole may be the cause... but he was always the cause that pushed events. The people of the future could not just not send him back - that was the way it was supposed to be.

I only saw the woman scientist. She's not there to stop anything, as the past, present and future has already happened. She went back to get the pure strain of the virus - and the guy opened the bottle at the airport security, so it was already in motion. My take is that she is sacrificing her own life to get the pre-mutated virus - she's letting herself get infected for the good of their time. She brings back the pure virus for the other scientists to find a cure so humans can re-claim the surface.

I never understood why anyone would make the assumption that she's there to stop anything, when the whole movie is one big: you can't stop anything from happening as it has already happened. What makes people make that assumption? Is it because they don't like the idea of a story ending with a depressive notion that we are basically puppets playing a role in a play that has already been decided?

 

[SSgt Burton]

I'm going off memory here

(I know you were going off memory) but the assistant does release the virus during the TSA inspection before boarding the plane: The TSA agent asks him to open his carry on (containing the virus bottles). The assistant opens one telling the agent that they are biological samples, invisible to the eye, and "don't even have an odour" (whereupon he holds the open virus bottle underneath the agent's nose).

The assistant knows at this point that he has also doomed himself, but is content that he's taking the World with him.

However you are right that one of the scientists from the future is on the plane sitting next to him. She opens a conversation with him and quips that she is "in insurance". The inferrence is that she is there to take over where Cole failed.

Since the virus has already been released, she cannot stop the World from ending; however the mission was always to obtain a sample of the virus before it mutates, so the scientists in the future can create an antedote for the remaining humans living underground. Thus saving the future of mankind.

Technically this is the "happy ending" however it is so ambiguous and so underplayed that it's easy to assume the mission was a complete failure.


Totally agree with Nexus that this movie is highly underrated. :thumbsup


And ironically I've been suffering from a cold for the last two days. :confused :lol


ANNNNNNND...

Too Much Garlic types faster than me. :lol


Kevin

 

[Too Much Garlic]

Well... Cole is the hero that lead the scientists straight to the pure strain. So... their time is saved and they'll reclaim the surface. As was supposed to happen.

But what they'll do with it and whether they have learned anything or going straight for another mass extinction is another story, as they do seem very fascist in their society structure - though we never do see their society... only the scientists and convicts.

 

[Chronos]

...

I only saw the woman scientist. She's not there to stop anything, as the past, present and future has already happened. She went back to get the pure strain of the virus - and the guy opened the bottle at the airport security, so it was already in motion. My take is that she is sacrificing her own life to get the pre-mutated virus - she's letting herself get infected for the good of their time. She brings back the pure virus for the other scientists to find a cure so humans can re-claim the surface.

I never understood why anyone would make the assumption that she's there to stop anything, when the whole movie is one big: you can't stop anything from happening as it has already happened. What makes people make that assumption? Is it because they don't like the idea of a story ending with a depressive notion that we are basically puppets playing a role in a play that has already been decided?

This is it exactly! Hence her quote, "Jones is my name. I'm in insurance."

The scientists figure it out, and send her there as "insurance".

 

[moffeaton]

He has a LeMat at the airport. That's all we need to know here, on the RPF.

 

[morrris99]

There is a short 15 minute French film this movie was based on that was fantastic. It also makes the story more about the time traveler himself than the events that unfolded and ended the world. It's called "la jetee" and in French it means "the tear" (like teardrop). It's currently on Stagevu for watching or downloading, just make sure you watch the one with english subtitles or soundtrack. La Jetee is credited in the 12 monkeys film during the credits. This movie deserves a Roland Emmerich sequel! (just kidding)

 

[Nexus6]

There is a short 15 minute French film this movie was based on that was fantastic. It also makes the story more about the time traveler himself than the events that unfolded and ended the world. It's called "la jetee" and in French it means "the tear" (like teardrop). It's currently on Stagevu for watching or downloading, just make sure you watch the one with english subtitles or soundtrack. La Jetee is credited in the 12 monkeys film during the credits. This movie deserves a Roland Emmerich sequel! (just kidding)

Well, my French is not nearly as good as it used to be, but I'm fairly certain that "jetee" means "PIER" or "JETTY", which would be relevant because that's where the main character runs into the girl.

I didn't really like it. It's more fantasy than science-fiction, & I think it's a stretch calling it a "film". It's more of a "slide-show" as, IIRC, there are no MOVING pictures in it.

BUT, tastes vary. I suppose I'm glad I saw it, so I know some of the origins of the Gilliam film, but I doubt I'll ever watch it again. *shrugs*

 

[morrris99]

Well, my French is not nearly as good as it used to be, but I'm fairly certain that "jetee" means "PIER" or "JETTY", which would be relevant because that's where the main character runs into the girl.

Ahhhhh. I first saw it on Turner Classic Movies right after they played 12 Monkeys. The host pronounced it as "the Tear", but maybe he actually said "Pier"! Ha! Awesome. I didn't like it the first time I watched it, but I think it grows on you and it's definitely worth a watch, if you want to see the inspiration for 12 monkeys.

 

[moffeaton]

Saw it in film school. I preferred "Hold Me While I'm Naked"

 

[calebhanie]

This is it exactly! Hence her quote, "Jones is my name. I'm in insurance."

The scientists figure it out, and send her there as "insurance".

interesting. i've never interpreted the scene that way. i was took it as literally meaning the 'scientists' of the future may well have been ordinary folk, like insurances reps, before it all happened.

 

[Too Much Garlic]

interesting. i've never interpreted the scene that way. i was took it as literally meaning the 'scientists' of the future may well have been ordinary folk, like insurances reps, before it all happened.

Except, she's the same age as she is in the future. Wouldn't make sense that it's her past self, seeing as Bruce Willis' character was a boy.

 

[Nexus6]

Except, she's the same age as she is in the future. Wouldn't make sense that it's her past self, seeing as Bruce Willis' character was a boy.

^THIS.^ :thumbsup