Joker Scars: Silicone Appliances Vs. Rigid Collodion
- Thread starter Frank
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SonOfPumpkinhead
Sr Member
I make silicone scars that are very accurate. As to what material... it depends how accurate you want to be... You can get a good effect with collodian but they used silicone appliances in the movie. It's all a matter of taste, skill, and application time...
NoTsOsErIoUs
Well-Known Member
Personally I don't think rigid collodion is the right stuff for the job. It creates a depression effect on the skin and The Joker's scars are Keloidal meaning they have a raised, bumpy and rounded effect to certain areas.
Also unless time and patience is taken to correctly seal the collodion it will not move well with the area around the mouth were the scars are positioned and will quickly crack and flake off.
The apparent usage time that collodion provides doesn't seem to warrant
the time and effort taken to apply collodion well enough to get the desired effect.
I accept that it all depends on a persons budget as to what materials they deside to use.
Silicone is probably the best, but there is also a third option of gellatine. It's probably the easiest to blend and blend well.
Also unless time and patience is taken to correctly seal the collodion it will not move well with the area around the mouth were the scars are positioned and will quickly crack and flake off.
The apparent usage time that collodion provides doesn't seem to warrant
the time and effort taken to apply collodion well enough to get the desired effect.
I accept that it all depends on a persons budget as to what materials they deside to use.
Silicone is probably the best, but there is also a third option of gellatine. It's probably the easiest to blend and blend well.
GeektressGalore
Sr Member
I use Rigid Collodion, but it doesn't work too well on "young" skin. If your skin is too smooth and tight, there's nowhere for it to shrink. That was the problem on my friend's face (the guy I was doing makeup for) but it worked pretty well on my face.
After that, I use a little bit of scar wax or "extra flesh" to sculpt the scars. Just dab a bit of spirit gum on your face first so it won't fall off, then brush some liquid latex over it to seal it. Then you're free to paint and go.
After that, I use a little bit of scar wax or "extra flesh" to sculpt the scars. Just dab a bit of spirit gum on your face first so it won't fall off, then brush some liquid latex over it to seal it. Then you're free to paint and go.
NoTsOsErIoUs
Well-Known Member
My apologies I spelt it wrong, it's Gelatin.
Before the introduction of silicone as the major prefence in film prosthetics the other two main staples were foamed latex and Gelatin.
Gelatin is the main component of jello the same stuff is used in prosthetics the only difference is the gelatin in jello is of a food grade quality.
Prosthetic gelatin comes in blocks that are then heated to a viscosity where it can be poured into a mold and it re-solidifies (to a skin like quality) upon cooling.
Gelatin prosthetics can be finely blended with the skin by using a solution of witch hazel, this basically melts the fine edges of the prosthetic making for a virtually indistinguishable seam between the appliance and the skin.
Gelatin moves with the skin like...well, skin. Silicone probably does this even better but it's hard to beat gelatin as a cost effective and technically impressive material.
There are many tutorials over the net on the correct usage of gelatin prosthetics.
Before the introduction of silicone as the major prefence in film prosthetics the other two main staples were foamed latex and Gelatin.
Gelatin is the main component of jello the same stuff is used in prosthetics the only difference is the gelatin in jello is of a food grade quality.
Prosthetic gelatin comes in blocks that are then heated to a viscosity where it can be poured into a mold and it re-solidifies (to a skin like quality) upon cooling.
Gelatin prosthetics can be finely blended with the skin by using a solution of witch hazel, this basically melts the fine edges of the prosthetic making for a virtually indistinguishable seam between the appliance and the skin.
Gelatin moves with the skin like...well, skin. Silicone probably does this even better but it's hard to beat gelatin as a cost effective and technically impressive material.
There are many tutorials over the net on the correct usage of gelatin prosthetics.
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CB2001
Master Member
Gelatin is normally used for food, but it has been used by film makeup people for years as a build up appliance for makeup. Basically, it's useful in making scars (including cuts and burn scars), ripped flesh effects and even bullet holes (the gelatin bullet hole is the one that further up on the forearm).
It's easy to use, but to get the kind of scars like the Joker, it's going to require multiple layers to be applied on and you'll have to attempt to shape them to make them close to matching.
Of course, a pre-existing application is best (what was used for the scars in the film was a new material. It was so light weight and natural feeling, Heath Ledger stated that he felt like he wasn't even wearing makeup), but Gelatin can be found at your nearby supermarket.
NoTsOsErIoUs
Well-Known Member
You wouldn't attempt to layer gelatin on the skin, it doesn't work that way. It's poured into a pre-existing mold and left to cool or cure and then applied to the skin.
Gelatin can be found at your nearby supermarket but that is not the end of the process if you're making your own prosthetic grade gelatin other stuff has to be added in measured quantities to a specific recipe. You're going to be much better off buying Prosthetic Gelatin in blocks from a distributor such as Monster Makers for example.
CB2001
Master Member
Actually, layering on the skin can be done, as that was what was taught to me and my classmates when we had the Makeup class last year. First, you'd have to use skin cleaner to remove any oil on your face first, but after that, the gelatin, while still warm still in a liquid state, can be applied in layers to build up a scar. So, saying "it doesn't work that way" isn't necessarily true.
True, but the original poster did not clarify if he needed it by Halloween or if he was going to do it for another project that has more time to work on. So, I assumed it would be the previous. But to clarify, if you're doing something like this so close to Halloween, the odds of you getting Prosthetic Gelatin in blocks from a distributor in time before Halloween, you'd have better luck at just buying the Gelatin from the local supermarket and using that temporarily until after. However, if you're doing it for something later that requires more time, then go with the Prosthetic Gelatin.
The thing about rigid collodion (which is one of the things the OP asked about) is that it simulates scars that go into the skin. When its applied and dries, it pulls the surrounding skin. By applying multiple layers of that, it makes the "scar " bigger and deeper. It's also used to create wrinkles, too. The problem with using it for the TDK Joker is that his scars are more build up than sunk into the skin.
R
reddwarf81
Guest
Gelatin CAN be applied in layers and built up to make very realistic burns. This is basic in the Dick Smith course. If you go to BURMAN INDUSTRIES small kits of gelatin effects were sold. This was 20 years ago when I was still in the film industry. Burman has changed hands since then but I think they still carry those kits.
NoTsOsErIoUs
Well-Known Member
I guess I will have to clarify that I'm only talking about mould pre made gelatine Joker scar appliances (or silicone stamp type moulds as used for the film).
I have used both and I personally find gelatine easier to work with.
Sculpting on the face was not something I would suggest to anyone not skilled in doing so.
I have no personal experience of any other use of gelatine.
I have used both and I personally find gelatine easier to work with.
Sculpting on the face was not something I would suggest to anyone not skilled in doing so.
I have no personal experience of any other use of gelatine.
GeektressGalore
Sr Member
While using silicone/gelatin would technically be more accurate, I find that scar wax is far easier to use. Joker scars were the first attempt at scars that I'd ever attempted and scar wax made it a lot simpler to wrap my head around.
CB2001
Master Member
But sometimes wax, of any kind, can be a pain. I tried using some on one of my classmates when we had the class, and the wax kept sticking to my fingers and not onto him (and yes, I used lotion on my hands to keep it from sticking to me). Right then, I pretty much came to realize that wax and I are not good bedfellows. :lol
GeektressGalore
Sr Member
I learned quickly to use baby powder on my hands. It doesn't help much in a moving van on the way to GenCon, but it keeps it from sticking to your hands a lot better than lotion.
if you want to do them the same way as the movie and have them blend easily heres how they were made. first sculpt the wounds onto a lifecast thats precoated with 2 or 3 layers of dental seperator. dont fully complete the sculpt but just get the shape and size right. put the cast into a bucket of water to reactivate the seperator and carfully remove the half sculpted pieces.
Place these onto a flat surface such as a tile or a flat board and press them flat.
Finish the sculpt making sure the edges are as thin as possible.
Next step is to mould , use a platinum silic0ne such as gel 10 or 73 /15 from polytech. you build a clay wall around the wounds and pour the silicone to about 10 mm thick.
when thats cured peel it away from the sculpt, clean it. then rub some vaseline into the moulds and wipe out any excess. give a spray of parfilm on top of that then spray with either a spritzer or airbrush 3 or 4 coates of cap plastic such as super baldies into the mould.
mix a batch of silicone and pour this into the mould and with a straight edge scrape the mould over so the would is full but the edges are thin and clean.
Let that cure and remove. you have a silicone wound with a fine plastic edge that can be blended with iso alcohol to an imperceptable edge.
this is a simplified explanation but Neill gorton does an excellent dvd on this subject. available from mouldlife or brick in the yard in the states.
Place these onto a flat surface such as a tile or a flat board and press them flat.
Finish the sculpt making sure the edges are as thin as possible.
Next step is to mould , use a platinum silic0ne such as gel 10 or 73 /15 from polytech. you build a clay wall around the wounds and pour the silicone to about 10 mm thick.
when thats cured peel it away from the sculpt, clean it. then rub some vaseline into the moulds and wipe out any excess. give a spray of parfilm on top of that then spray with either a spritzer or airbrush 3 or 4 coates of cap plastic such as super baldies into the mould.
mix a batch of silicone and pour this into the mould and with a straight edge scrape the mould over so the would is full but the edges are thin and clean.
Let that cure and remove. you have a silicone wound with a fine plastic edge that can be blended with iso alcohol to an imperceptable edge.
this is a simplified explanation but Neill gorton does an excellent dvd on this subject. available from mouldlife or brick in the yard in the states.
NoTsOsErIoUs
Well-Known Member
I did hear someone was going to be making encapsulated scars available but I don't know if they ever did.
For the movie though, I thought they didn't flaten the floated sculps but instead created snap moulds? I seem to remember seeing images of the molds (or stamps in this case, it being a new process) and they were contoured with the actors face. They were then pressed into place and when peeled back left the seamless scar in position. Don't think they had to do any blending at all.
a few images of the process can be found here.
http://www.siliconeprosthetics.com/index.htm
For the movie though, I thought they didn't flaten the floated sculps but instead created snap moulds? I seem to remember seeing images of the molds (or stamps in this case, it being a new process) and they were contoured with the actors face. They were then pressed into place and when peeled back left the seamless scar in position. Don't think they had to do any blending at all.
a few images of the process can be found here.
http://www.siliconeprosthetics.com/index.htm
it can be done either way with a silicone mould. especialy a very translucent flexible silicone like 73/15 you can see the skin under it to get exact placement and can be directly applied from the mould. think you may be correct they used contoured but its overkill realy for this job. they still had to dissolve the cap plastic a tad though it litteraly take about a minute to get a flawless blend.
another great material for this effect is to mould as i described but to use creamed pros aid or aqua fix cream from the suppliers i mentioned do the scrape over method as described, freeze them for an hour to draw moisture out. let them defrost then aplly straight from the mould. all you need to apply them and blend with invisible edges is iso alcohol. its basically whats known in the make up fx industry as a pros aide transfer. very long laasting and flexible. and cheap too. any one needing advice or help with this type of thing should visit www.fxlab.com or p.m me ive got 28 years experience with fx and prosthetics from gelatine, foam, to silicone . always here for you guys.
