Avatar reviews - Attention : spoilers

Carson Dyle · Dec 30, 2009

Solo4114 said:
You say that Avatar is RELATIVELY complex. To me, that suggests that it's only so complex, and doesn't get much past that point.

What may, therefore, be the issue is that people see the POTENTIAL for greater complexity, and find the film lacking when it doesn't deliver, or when it could be so much better with the additional complexity.

The characters in Avatar are complex RELATIVE to those in Star Wars. That's not a dig at either film; it's just a fact. I mean, neither Lucas nor Cameron will ever be confused with Tolstoy... character complexity is not what they're striving for. They're both Big Picture guys who's speciality is blowing us away with spectacle and wonder. Those wishing for more "complexity" from Avatar are well within they're right, but IMO they're criticizing the film for being something it didn't, doesn't, and shouldn't want to be.

Cameron got exactly what he wanted up on the screen, and since I loved what he did I'm not going to fault him for not having done something else.

There comes a point when you have to judge a film for what it is and not what you think is should have been, and by that measure I think Avatar is a masterpiece.

firesprite · Dec 30, 2009

niennumb1 said:
Star Wars WAS simple until the Phantom Menace opened a box of WTF with all the medichlorians talk etc....

Has this thread elevated to Avatar vs. Star Wars now? This should be interesting!

I don't think anyone's trying to make this a versus thread. It's more of an illustration of how what is basically the same story can be told in a different way. When you boil them both down to their very essences, you get the unlikely hero rising above his, and everyone else's, expectations to do great things. That's it. The differences are, as Carson said, the level of complexity involved.

I love both films, but Star Wars I'll always view with the wonder of the little girl that first saw it. Avatar, I'll view as an adult who dares to hope that we might rise above our own fears and doubts to do what's right.

Carson Dyle · Dec 30, 2009

Well said, Firesprite.

At least one person understood my rambling posts.

lonepigeon · Dec 30, 2009

Carson Dyle said:
Clearly the stories have a great deal in common, but Cameron made a science-fiction story with fantasy elements, whereas Lucas made a fantasy film with science-fiction elements.

It's funny, but I see them the other way around.
Avatar looks very fantasy to me with it's big blue elf-cat people, bows and arrows, flying lizards, floating mountains and space horses.

For me it's not that elements of the story are borrowed, it's that so many are borrowed from a single source. I wish it was more of a unique mix of elements, not necessarily more complex. I like the movie but I groan when I see Jake trying to learn to ride a space horse, falling off and being mocked by the tribal warrior.

Star Wars has the overall arc of the Hero myth, but that's not a defined story being copied, it's thematic elements. You have a hero saving a princess from a castle, but it's not that literally copied at least not as much as Avatar.

Avatar's a good movie and I think it will do very well. I even want to go see it again in theaters. I'll buy the BluRay. There are just things I wish were a little better. Reading the details of the original script treatment several posts back I think the story was better, but became more derivative when they tried to simplify it.

Solo4114 · Dec 30, 2009

niennumb1 said:
Star Wars WAS simple until the Phantom Menace opened a box of WTF with all the medichlorians talk etc...

Actually, taht's EXACTLY what I'm getting at. Science fiction typically seeks to explain, elaborate, provide answers, predictions, etc. Fantasy usually just waves its hand and says "Magic. that's why." And on to the story. Whereas for a lot of sci-fi, the explanation IS the story. When you start mixing the two in the same franchise (IE: one time saying "magic. Next question?" and the next time saying "Well, actually, complex pseudo-biology. Next question?"), you end up messing with the audience's heads.

Carson Dyle said:
Exactly. Myths do not endure because of character complexity, they endure because their themes are timeless, universal, and human beings never tire of seeing them demonstrated in new and interesting ways.

Look, it's not a question of Avater being "better" than Star Wars, or vice-versa. As much as they have in common, there are also marked dissimilarities. For one thing, Cameron sets his story in our future, which brings another level of complexity (not to mention controversy) to the proceedings.

Suffice it to say Avatar is targeted toward a somewhat older audience than that of Star Wars. This is not a qualitative distinction, merely a practical one. Lucas didn't want any messy character complexity to overshadow his thematic focus, whereas Cameron isn't afraid to spend a little time setting up the characters and developing their relationships a bit.

Makes sense. Star Wars, I think, works with adult audiences not because it appeals to adult sensibilities, but more because it appeals to the childlike wonder that adults hold on to. From the sound of it, Avatar is more attempting to appeal to adult (or at least teen-aged) sensibilities, but to do so with more than the usual "Big 'splosions and...uh....MORE big 'splosions" approach. I think that's commendable, I just hope it doesn't stop there.

Carson Dyle said:
The characters in Avatar are complex RELATIVE to those in Star Wars. That's not a dig at either film; it's just a fact. I mean, neither Lucas nor Cameron will ever be confused with Tolstoy... character complexity is not what they're striving for. They're both Big Picture guys who's speciality is blowing us away with spectacle and wonder. Those wishing for more "complexity" from Avatar are well within they're right, but IMO they're criticizing the film for being something it didn't, doesn't, and shouldn't want to be.

Didn't and doesn't, sure. Shouldn't, though? Are you suggesting that we shouldn't hope for big spectacle AND complex characters and drama? I think the two CAN be done, they just usually aren't. Actually, they almost never are.

Cameron got exactly what he wanted up on the screen, and since I loved what he did I'm not going to fault him for not having done something else.

There comes a point when you have to judge a film for what it is and not what you think is should have been, and by that measure I think Avatar is a masterpiece.

That's fair, and I think a valid point. Plus it sounds better than the usual "Dude, it's not SHAKESPEARE" response.

But I don't think it's unfair to hope that even visually spectacular films can do better than the stuff Lucas and Cameron give us. I'll be interested to see how Avatar stacks up to Aliens and Terminator 1 as far as characterization goes.

Carson Dyle · Dec 30, 2009

Solo4114 said:
Are you suggesting that we shouldn't hope for big spectacle AND complex characters and drama?

No. I'm just saying that in the case of Avatar the characters are exactly as complex as they need to be in order to best serve the story at hand. I'd say the same thing about Star Wars -- or, for that matter, 2001, a film which features paper thin characters (HAL notwithstanding) but epic themes.

I mean, really, do you really think The Lord of the Rings would be a better story if Frodo were a more "complex" character?

Carson Dyle · Dec 30, 2009

Solo4114 said:
I don't think it's unfair to hope that even visually spectacular films can do better than the stuff Lucas and Cameron give us.

I'm all for "better" movies, but I wouldn't change a frame of either Star Wars or Avatar. They're perfect as they are (or, in the case of Star Wars, it was perfect as it was). Imperfections and all.

Solo4114 · Dec 30, 2009

Gotcha. I see where you're coming from.

firesprite · Dec 30, 2009

Carson Dyle said:
Well said, Firesprite.

At least one person understood my rambling posts.

You're welcome. I know that as a writer myself, I very much enjoyed Avatar. I loved watching Jake's evolution from a grunt doing what he's told to learning to think for himself and decide what's right. I loved watching his relationships with Grace and Trudy and Neytiri evolve and how they, in turn, grew from HIS evolution. This is something that Cameron, as a writer, does very well.

The plot line may be very simple and straight forward, but he's very good at making the characters enjoyable to watch and writing dialogue that is clever, but not for cleverness' sake (i.e. Joss Whedon). They're people that I can believe actually existing. Personally, I think the only -real- weak link in the movie was Norman. He was only there as an info dump, in my opinion, even after he picked up his assault rifle to help in the battle.

Heather

PS, I've also bought my tickets to see it in 3D! Going on New Year's day, so I'll let you know if I like it more or less than the '2d' version.

Birdie · Dec 30, 2009

For me it's not that elements of the story are borrowed, it's that so many are borrowed from a single source

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hidden_Fortress

Solo4114 · Dec 30, 2009

Birdie said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hidden_Fortress

...is one element that Star Wars ripped off. Let's also not forget the Flash Gordon serials, The Dam Busters, Triumph of the Will, certain elements from various Western films, and of course the basic heroic myth in general terms.

That's not to say that Hidden Fortress doesn't heavily influence Star Wars, but it's not the only thing. If you don't believe me, go watch the Dam Busters and their final run on the titular dam. I DARE you not to think "Oh sure, Trench Run. I get it."

Carson Dyle · Dec 30, 2009

Yeah, you know, it's possible to be inspired by something without ripping it off.

I mean, Shakespeare "ripped off" damn near every play he ever got his hands on, but that doesn't make his body of work any less profound or meaningful.

Art is not created in a vacuum.

lonepigeon · Dec 30, 2009

As I said Cameron rips off too much material from one story for my tastes.
Can you watch Hidden Fortress and see the entire plot of ANH? No.

Avatar's space Indians are a bit much to me. Even with all the Indian stereotype design elements (long black braided ponytail, bone necklaces, tribal dances etc.) I can still enjoy the movie most of the time, but certain scenes and elements directly lifted from the base story take me out of Cameron's world.

franz bolo · Dec 30, 2009

lonepigeon said:
As I said Cameron rips off too much material from one story for my tastes. Can you watch Hidden Fortress and see the entire plot of ANH? No.

The main thing Lucas stole from Hidden Fortress was telling the story from the 2 secondary characters point of view. Genius!!

I took my wife to Avatar for her birthday today and was amazed! Great movie. The interface designs, ships and planet are all pretty damn cool.

The 3D is perfect! Great job in my opinion. I thought it was more African inspired than Indian. To be honest, I never thought Indian at all.

FB

Carson Dyle · Dec 30, 2009

Well, it's certainly not the first time Cameron has been taken to task for borrowing too liberally from specific sources. Harlan Ellison sued him for "ripping off" the plot to The Terminator., and clearly Aliens owes a lot to Starship Troopers.

I personally find Cameron brings so many disparate elements to the party, and manages to incorporate those elements so cleverly and organically, that I can forgive him the (alleged) transgressions mentioned above.

But that's just me.

Birdie · Dec 30, 2009

I thought it was more African inspired than Indian. To be honest, I never thought Indian at all.

Absoluteley agree. I never once thought American Indian, as I mentioned in an earlier post, I felt the Na'vi were so tribal African that it took me out of the movie a little.

Funnily enough I've never seen Dances with Wolves or Pocahontas, and I still felt the plotline was hackneyed with over-familiarity. I also really wanted to hear Team America's 'Montage' song playing over the Jake & Neriti (sp?) training/falling in love sequence.

I think the major problem for film-buffs and the more tuned in cinemas goers is cynicism. Everyone is so knowing and jaded and 'impress me' in a way that they simply weren't back in Star Wars days.

I enjoyed Avatar quite a bit, but wasn't able to fully leave that cynicism aside. The scriptment had more stuff in it that would have appealed to me as a sci-fi fan (the ruined earth sequences) and a fan of of Cameron's kinetic action sequences (the Navi attack on the base f'rinstance).

I never really felt it was explained in the final version why the sky-guys fell out with the Navi in the first place, the explanation to this seemingly importrant question seeming to have remained firmly in the 'stuff cut from the original script', along with a lot of other plot-hole foiling details.

Oh well.

Birdie · Dec 30, 2009

Double post
Oh well.

Great_Bizarro · Dec 30, 2009

Just returned from viewing it in Imax 3D. It is a much better 3D experience than the ones offered at the standard theaters, saw it there first.

Bryancd · Dec 30, 2009

Birdie said:
I never really felt it was explained in the final version why the sky-guys fell out with the Navi in the first place, the explanation to this seemingly importrant question seeming to have remained firmly in the 'stuff cut from the original script', along with a lot of other plot-hole foiling details.

That was certainly glazed over, althought he explanation given seemed plausible. That the human's offered them education, infrastructure, and light beer an the Navi simply were not interested in the enticements.

niennumb1 · Dec 30, 2009

firesprite said:
You're welcome. I know that as a writer myself, I very much enjoyed Avatar. I loved watching Jake's evolution from a grunt doing what he's told to learning to think for himself and decide what's right. I loved watching his relationships with Grace and Trudy and Neytiri evolve and how they, in turn, grew from HIS evolution. This is something that Cameron, as a writer, does very well.

The plot line may be very simple and straight forward, but he's very good at making the characters enjoyable to watch and writing dialogue that is clever, but not for cleverness' sake (i.e. Joss Whedon). They're people that I can believe actually existing. Personally, I think the only -real- weak link in the movie was Norman. He was only there as an info dump, in my opinion, even after he picked up his assault rifle to help in the battle.

Heather

PS, I've also bought my tickets to see it in 3D! Going on New Year's day, so I'll let you know if I like it more or less than the '2d' version.

I agree, and well put, firesprite!

Avatar reviews - Attention : spoilers

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