ZK's ZF-1 research thread

Re: ZK's ZF-1 reasearch/build thread

Great caps, Thanks!!! Maybe Tee will chime in and let us know where the other making of video came from.
 
Re: ZK's ZF-1 reasearch/build thread

Looking at the youtube video, the title of that documentary is "Searching for the Fifth Element" and that documentary looks to be on a standard definition DVD release from the USA. I see a few of these standard DVD's up on Amazon right now, I might try to order one and see if the right one arrives. Naw, no try, I am ordering now. :)
 
Re: ZK's ZF-1 reasearch/build thread

From what i can tell the US versions of the DVD comes with both full screen and widescreen versions of the movie but no making of videos. The UK version comes with only the widescreen version of the movie and the making of video and a theatrical trailer. It also has to be the early release (1999) not the 2 disc special edition.
 
Re: ZK's ZF-1 reasearch/build thread

ZK,

I got in the Amazon DVD and you were right, it's for Region 2 (UK). Currently I am trying to source a region-free player from any of my video peeps out there. Might be a couple weeks till I can get you screencaps, but it's in thew works.
 
Re: ZK's ZF-1 reasearch/build thread

You mean a software player, not a hardware standarlone player, right?

You can switch regions with some PC software players.

ZK,

I got in the Amazon DVD and you were right, it's for Region 2 (UK). Currently I am trying to source a region-free player from any of my video peeps out there. Might be a couple weeks till I can get you screencaps, but it's in thew works.
 
Re: ZK's ZF-1 reasearch/build thread

Yeah, you'll want to be screen grabbing from a computer.

Download some demos, such as PowerDVD, they all give you a few region changes at the start. So just say youre region 2, do the grabs delete the software.

Blu-Ray is a bit more complicated to screen grab from.
 
Re: ZK's ZF-1 reasearch/build thread

Earlier on in this thread there were some people talking about the LED sequencing and how to interpret it from film frames. Some misinformation was involved. Here are some facts:

- The technique of strobing the LEDs to control average current was mentioned. This would probably not be done for a movie prop as it can cause all kinds of grief as the strobing goes in and out of phase with the camera's shutter timing. In either case, current control when driving LEDs in a situation like that would almost certainly be resistors, regardless of whether they're strobed or not. Building a device to emulate the chase pattern of the LEDs on this prop is trivial and probably doesn't even require a microcontroller. I suspect it's a 4017 decade counter driven by a 555 oscillator or similar. Most of these things are.

- 3:2 pulldown is only an issue when you view the material on an NTSC television. Neither blu-ray nor DVD (and certainly not PAL region DVDs) actually encodes the 3:2 pulldown as part of the picture - that would be a terrible waste of bitrate on the DVD. The player, or often now the display if you are using an HDMI display, is responsible for frame rate conversion. If you watch it on a computer, using something like VLC media player, you are watching 24fps film frames.

- LEDs as mentioned don't really fade out, they chop on and off very hard (they're so fast, in fact, you can actually transmit useful amounts of data with them using the right electronics). It is not really feasible that the camera would ever catch one half-on unless special measures had been taken to make them fade much more slowly than usual. The only exception to this would be if someone had actually managed to capture a combined frame due to 3:2 pulldown, but I can't imagine how you could possibly do that.

I work in the industry and do this stuff every day.

Hope this helps,

HF
 
Re: ZK's ZF-1 reasearch/build thread

I don't do screen grabs with software i use a camera to take pics of my TV. When i took sequencing pics i was taking it off a Pioneer plasma that uses 3:2 pull down. I don't think i have done any grabs yet with my new Kuro, i can change the pull down on that one.

Also i don't think you could do it with 4017's unless caps are used so the leds fade rather than just go off , the lights don't go in steps of one on then off then the next on. They go on untill the next led goes on then it goes out. So the lights go on in this order. 1on, 1+2on, 2on ,2+3on, 3on, etc.
 
Re: ZK's ZF-1 reasearch/build thread

Film captures light the whole time the shutter is open. So if one LED goes off at exactly the same time another goes on (while the shutter is open) both of them will expose the film and depending on when they switch they'll appear different brightnesses.

Since the shutter is closed for about half the time there's a 50/50 chance of seeing 2 sets illuminated in the same frame.
 
Re: ZK's ZF-1 reasearch/build thread

True.

I would be astonished if there was anything other than just a straight chase going on, one after the other. The amount of work it would take to create the elaborate sequencing you describe for such a tiny sub-element of a prop is enormous and I suspect therefore that it simply wasn't done. Anything to the contrary is an artefact of whatever capture process you're using.

Taking photos of a TV screen has to be just about the least accurate, least repeatable approach I can possibly imagine!

HF
 
Re: ZK's ZF-1 reasearch/build thread

I'm following this thread with great interest (congratulation for all the work and time investment in the investigations & research).

My 2 cents on the dimming / fading of led or other indicators when filmed : I've seen the same thing when researching sequences of the vader's chest box. The combination of the low frame rate (compared with blinking evens durations) and the non synchronization between the frame rate of the camera and the device provides time aliasing and high freq events. Something similar when you film a CRT monitor with no synch, like someone said above I think.
If the frame was captured while the led isn't fully on (even leds have slew rate, as well as the controlling device) you have the illusion that you have less light from it.

just to be accurate and follow properly, the animation refers here to what is seen from the opponent / aimed target point of view (converging sequence to a central spot) ?
 
Re: ZK's ZF-1 reasearch/build thread

From a brief bit of YouTube research I've just done, the Vader costume uses incandescent lights, which certainly do take some time to change state.

On the other hand, LEDs do not have a "slew rate" that is anywhere even approaching visible on film. LEDs can be used to transmit information at megahertz bandwidths, that's millions of cycles per second. Neither your eye nor anything used on a film set are capable of seeing LEDs "fading" of their own accord.

It's possible, though barely credible, that the driver electronics are doing it. I'll repeat this, but I consider it absurdly unlikely that the Zorg prop used anything other than a simple chase controlled by some sort of microelectronics. Any evidence to the contrary will be down to the filmmaking process.

HF
 
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Re: ZK's ZF-1 reasearch/build thread

The shutter of a film camera is open for about 1/48th of a second (depending on the camera settings). If an LED is on for the entire period it'll appear full brightness. If it turns off before the shutter closes it'll appear dimmer. If one turns off and one turns on half way through the shutter open time, they'll both expose the film for half the time - hence you'll see 2 LEDs on at a reduced brightness.
 
Re: ZK's ZF-1 reasearch/build thread

Yeah, you'll want to be screen grabbing from a computer.
.


LDR,
You were right my Sony Laptop just opened up the movie and started playing it. Awesome!

Unfortunately , the "Searching for the Fifth Element" documentary on this Region 2 DVD is not the same as what is seen in those screen caps or the Youtube movie linked by Tee. It has the same production values and title cards, but it is a different version all together. Sigh.

The DVD did have a few frames of the armament package being slid into place and the arrow launcher mechanism that shot the real arrows, but no shots of the multiple ZF1's sitting on the table being worked on. :(

Below are the best screencaps that I deemed usable from the video...

vlcsnap-00274.png


vlcsnap-00281.png


vlcsnap-00286.png


vlcsnap-00311.png


p.s. I love that last screencapture shot, the Police Mannequin has a hole right through his abdomen. Haha... you just have to love Besson's humor!

p.p.s And as always, if anyone wants ALL the screen caps that I took of this video, just message me here on the RPF and ask. We'll figure out a way to get them to you, either by zip file or CD/DVD burning and snail mail.
 
Re: ZK's ZF-1 reasearch/build thread

The shutter of a film camera is open for about 1/48th of a second (depending on the camera settings). If an LED is on for the entire period it'll appear full brightness. If it turns off before the shutter closes it'll appear dimmer. If one turns off and one turns on half way through the shutter open time, they'll both expose the film for half the time - hence you'll see 2 LEDs on at a reduced brightness.

Sure, that's what I mean by an artefact of the filmmaking process. If we're trying to accurately figure out what the chase pattern was, that's useful to know - again, there is no indication that the LEDs are doing anything but a hard switch. This is one reason why they might appear not to be doing that, but I think they are.

Interestingly, if an object is in motion over a longer exposure period, it may not actually get any brighter - it may just produce a longer motion blur. People love to select the slowest possible shutter speed on video cameras (often 100% of the frame duration, so 1/24 of a second for movies) in the belief it'll make the image brighter. If they then shoot handheld, all it actually does is make the image smeary and equally dark.

We're now veering sharply into forensic motion picture examination, but there you go!

-HF
 
Re: ZK's ZF-1 reasearch/build thread

LDR,
You were right my Sony Laptop just opened up the movie and started playing it. Awesome!

Unfortunately , the "Searching for the Fifth Element" documentary on this Region 2 DVD is not the same as what is seen in those screen caps or the Youtube movie linked by Tee. It has the same production values and title cards, but it is a different version all together. Sigh.

The DVD did have a few frames of the armament package being slid into place and the arrow launcher mechanism that shot the real arrows, but no shots of the multiple ZF1's sitting on the table being worked on. :(

Below are the best screencaps that I deemed usable from the video...

p.s. I love that last screencapture shot, the Police Mannequin has a hole right through his abdomen. Haha... you just have to love Besson's humor!

p.p.s And as always, if anyone wants ALL the screen caps that I took of this video, just message me here on the RPF and ask. We'll figure out a way to get them to you, either by zip file or CD/DVD burning and snail mail.


That is exactly what i needed. Thanks!!
 
Re: ZK's ZF-1 reasearch/build thread

I can see a ZF-1 build is in my future. Those screen caps are great... now all we need is a step-by-step!
 
Re: ZK's ZF-1 reasearch/build thread

Moving ahead with the scope lights, I asked Mike at 'Mind in Motion' to create an electronics package that will control both front and back sequences on the scope. He took it a step further (read as: over a year to develop) and integrated the entire electronics controller onto the front face - complete with brightness control and a programable chip (for future sequence/timing changes as info becomes available).

Would anyone happen to have a definitive reference image of the back of the scope?

current interpretation:
scp_eltc_12.jpg

scp_bk_12.jpg

scp_2012.jpg
 
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