Cracking Open the MR Falcon to fix front LED. SEE POST #16 AND #17... IT'S THE BASE.

eFX · Apr 21, 2009

Re: Cracking Open the MR Falcon to fix front LED. SEE POST #16 AND #17... IT'S THE B

nightrider said:
Those 4 screws hold a circular plastic piece that the mounting post is epoxied into. It would probably effect the integrity of the post by drilling under it, since it is epoxied there. I do think in your case, going in through the mirror top is the best bet, especially since you have a good source for a replacement. The acrylic mirror that's on it now scratches easily, mine is all spider-webbed up just from dusting, so maybe your replacement will be even better after you're finished.

I don't think that anyone read my post in Rebelscum. There are NO electronics in the base. There is only the AC adapter connector, ON/OFF switch and power wire. The PCB is in the Falcon. I do not recommend tearing open the base since there is nothing to fix in there!

Bryan

Jedi Dade · Apr 22, 2009

Re: Cracking Open the MR Falcon to fix front LED. SEE POST #16 AND #17... IT'S THE B

eFX said:
I don't think that anyone read my post in Rebelscum. There are NO electronics in the base. There is only the AC adapter connector, ON/OFF switch and power wire. The PCB is in the Falcon. I do not recommend tearing open the base since there is nothing to fix in there!

Bryan

Yes but if you read this entire thread - there is serious evidence to point that faulty wiring switch and the mono-jack in the post itself are causing the poor/spotty connection to the model. Yes I as sceptical of this as well sicne "some" of the lights come on, but Jvasilatos has no reason to deceive us here and has told us how we can test the theory in our own models. This part of the discussion is how to rewire the base without totally destroying it.

I plan on getting the stuff to conduct the test myself...

If it turns out that it is in the base I will drill a small hole in the bottom of the base - just large eough to run a wire - not large enough to ruin the strength of the bond to the post, and rewire the puppy with a proper switch... One Worthy of the Falcon. Of course it is kinda in character for the Falcon to be finicky...

Jedi Dade

Nils · Apr 22, 2009

Re: Cracking Open the MR Falcon to fix front LED. SEE POST #16 AND #17... IT'S THE B

Maybe it´s just the new mono plug that is just a tad thicker and there for makes the connection more solid? It would make sense to me!

eFX · Apr 22, 2009

Re: Cracking Open the MR Falcon to fix front LED. SEE POST #16 AND #17... IT'S THE B

Jedi Dade said:
Yes but if you read this entire thread - there is serious evidence to point that faulty wiring switch and the mono-jack in the post itself are causing the poor/spotty connection to the model. Yes I as sceptical of this as well sicne "some" of the lights come on, but Jvasilatos has no reason to deceive us here and has told us how we can test the theory in our own models. This part of the discussion is how to rewire the base without totally destroying it.

I plan on getting the stuff to conduct the test myself...

If it turns out that it is in the base I will drill a small hole in the bottom of the base - just large eough to run a wire - not large enough to ruin the strength of the bond to the post, and rewire the puppy with a proper switch... One Worthy of the Falcon. Of course it is kinda in character for the Falcon to be finicky...

Jedi Dade

The power wire simply goes to the stereo plug connector. The problem could be in the connection between male connector and the female connector in the Falcon. Remember, that there is only 1 set of power wires going to the PCB in the Falcon, so this will not explain why only one of the lights are going out. If it was in the power wiring ALL of the lights would go out. . . The LED's are all connected in PARALLEL, so that each LED gets the same voltage and current. There are resistors on the board which control the current going to each LED and thus eliminates and surges

Nils · Apr 22, 2009

Re: Cracking Open the MR Falcon to fix front LED. SEE POST #16 AND #17... IT'S THE B

Nils said:
Maybe it´s just the new mono plug that is just a tad thicker and there for makes the connection more solid? It would make sense to me!

eFX said:
The power wire simply goes to the stereo plug connector. The problem could be in the connection between male connector and the female connector in the Falcon.

Hmm..Yes, it could be...

lol

Java · Apr 22, 2009

Re: Cracking Open the MR Falcon to fix front LED. SEE POST #16 AND #17... IT'S THE B

This thread fascinates me, and I love puzzles. Let's face it. This is a puzzle.

It's too bad there hasn't been anybody to test out the method the O.P. did with the battery and the mono jack. If that is a repeatable "solution" it could point to the power supply, transformer, and how the LED's are wired up.

I read that LED's need to operate at the exact voltage they are rated for.

Wiring LED lights can be a bit tricky, because of the accuracy demanded in circuit values and the number of LEDs in a typical lighting circuit. With LEDs, you need very accurate values for current, voltage, and resistance, or else the circuit will not work at all.

If the AC transformer is not supplying the proper voltage, there's the answer. Is 9V really the output of that transformer?

Bright White LED's require a specific voltage (I am assuming these are white LED's?) I bet there is something in that circuit causing a voltage drop across that one manible light.

Parallel LED's do get the same voltage, but their current is different. They are really temperamental.

Check this: http://wolfstone.halloweenhost.com/Lighting/litlpo_PoweringLEDs.html

moffeaton · Apr 22, 2009

Re: Cracking Open the MR Falcon to fix front LED. SEE POST #16 AND #17... IT'S THE B

Heya Bryan,
With your expertise on this stuff, do you have any idea why one mandible light suddenly stops working? (And we're all experiencing the same left mandible light failure, too)

Nils · Apr 22, 2009

Re: Cracking Open the MR Falcon to fix front LED. SEE POST #16 AND #17... IT'S THE B

Javamonkey said:
Parallel LED's do get the same voltage, but their current is different. They are really temperamental.

Hey, Javamonkey...
I personally think you nailed it! This would make sense, the parallel led´s voltage is the same but if you have a
drop in current, it would show somewere and most people have problems with the same LED (it´s the same PCB on every Falcon).
What I would suggest is to change the power supply to another one with the same voltage and current (no PS is exactly the same as the next one, even if it says that).

vaderdarth · Apr 22, 2009

Re: Cracking Open the MR Falcon to fix front LED. SEE POST #16 AND #17... IT'S THE B

I changed my power supply once my falcon finally went out completely. Didn't help. Mine has to be the plug. That was the only thing that would work when the lights would flicker was to wiggle the cord inside the plug. That tells me the plug is faulty....at least on mine.

Dave

eFX · Apr 22, 2009

Re: Cracking Open the MR Falcon to fix front LED. SEE POST #16 AND #17... IT'S THE B

Nils said:
Hey, Javamonkey...
I personally think you nailed it! This would make sense, the parallel led´s voltage is the same but if you have a
drop in current, it would show somewere and most people have problems with the same LED (it´s the same PCB on every Falcon).
What I would suggest is to change the power supply to another one with the same voltage and current (no PS is exactly the same as the next one, even if it says that).

OK, let's get technical

That is not correct! If the "effective" resistance of each LED is the same, which they should be, the current will be the same. Remember V=IR (Voltage = Current X Resistance)

As for the Power Supply, the current will be determined by the total resistance of the entire PCB/LED. The current you see on the Power Supply Specs is the limit of the current output. In most cases, it should never hit the limit.

Java · Apr 22, 2009

Re: Cracking Open the MR Falcon to fix front LED. SEE POST #16 AND #17... IT'S THE B

Just going off of other experiences with LED's.

http://members.misty.com/don/ledd.html

Do not put LEDs in parallel with each other. Although this usually works, it is not reliable. LEDs become more conductive as they warm up, which may lead to unstable current distribution through paralleled LEDs. LEDs in parallel need their own individual dropping resistors. Series strings can be paralleled if each string has its own dropping resistor.

http://www.bivar.com/eLetter/driving-la.htm

You can also connect LEDs in parallel. However, variations in the forward voltage requirements of individual LEDs will result in non-uniform current distribution, and non-uniform current distribution results in non-uniform brightness.

As components age, their electrical characteristics change.
When components heat up, their electrical characteristics may change.

And since this is a REAL problem that more than one person is experiencing, SOMETHING is going on here that has completely ignored Ohm's Law.

We know:

- the Falcon is getting power because the other lights are illuminating.
- The left mandible light fails.
- The left mandible light is not blown out
- When a battery is substituted for the power supply, all lights illuminate.
- The Left mandible LED is wired correctly

What factors are left?

Accurate power delivery to each component.

Nils · Apr 22, 2009

Re: Cracking Open the MR Falcon to fix front LED. SEE POST #16 AND #17... IT'S THE B

eFX said:
OK, let's get technical That is not correct! If the "effective" resistance of each LED is the same, which they should be, the current will be the same. Remember V=IR (Voltage = Current X Resistance)

As for the Power Supply, the current will be determined by the total resistance of the entire PCB/LED. The current you see on the Power Supply Specs is the limit of the current output. In most cases, it should never hit the limit.

Alright, then we have gone thru every possibility and we still know nothing except that it works with a new plug and a 9v battery!
I REALLY hope that my lights dont get cranky!

b26354 · Apr 22, 2009

Re: Cracking Open the MR Falcon to fix front LED. SEE POST #16 AND #17... IT'S THE B

Nils said:
Alright, then we have gone thru every possibility and we still know nothing except that it works with a new plug and a 9v battery!
I REALLY hope that my lights dont get cranky!

But JV is also adding a resistor to his battery which reduces the current available to all the lights which may (and I stress may) be helping balance the power to the parallel connected LEDS.

I still think unsoldering and resoldering the LED is what "fixed" it though. Google "dry joint".

weird · Apr 22, 2009

Re: Cracking Open the MR Falcon

jvasilatos said:
Barry posted these in another thread... pics of brand new MR Falcon lighting rigs.

Is anyone with electronics experience able to identify how to match one of the headlights from these pics so we can fix our lamps?

Please correct me if I am wrong, but from these pics, it looks like the mandible lights are in series, where the other lights look to be in parallel. I believe this not to be much of an issue, but I am concerned that the voltage regulator is not mounted to the board to help dissipate the heat. Unless it is mounted to the Falcon's armature?

jvasilatos · Apr 22, 2009

Re: Cracking Open the MR Falcon to fix front LED. SEE POST #16 AND #17... IT'S THE B

eFX said:
The power wire simply goes to the stereo plug connector. The problem could be in the connection between male connector and the female connector in the Falcon. Remember, that there is only 1 set of power wires going to the PCB in the Falcon, so this will not explain why only one of the lights are going out. If it was in the power wiring ALL of the lights would go out. . . The LED's are all connected in PARALLEL, so that each LED gets the same voltage and current. There are resistors on the board which control the current going to each LED and thus eliminates and surges

So why does my Falcon power up completely with a 9 volt battery rig when it wouldn't when it was connected to the base?

JV

jvasilatos · Apr 22, 2009

Re: Cracking Open the MR Falcon to fix front LED. SEE POST #16 AND #17... IT'S THE B

vaderdarth said:
I changed my power supply once my falcon finally went out completely. Didn't help. Mine has to be the plug. That was the only thing that would work when the lights would flicker was to wiggle the cord inside the plug. That tells me the plug is faulty....at least on mine.

Dave

The foundation of my theory and proven to me at least by the steady power to the lights from a 9 volt battery.

JV

jvasilatos · Apr 22, 2009

Re: Cracking Open the MR Falcon to fix front LED. SEE POST #16 AND #17... IT'S THE B

Javamonkey said:
Just going off of other experiences with LED's.

http://members.misty.com/don/ledd.html

Do not put LEDs in parallel with each other. Although this usually works, it is not reliable. LEDs become more conductive as they warm up, which may lead to unstable current distribution through paralleled LEDs. LEDs in parallel need their own individual dropping resistors. Series strings can be paralleled if each string has its own dropping resistor.

http://www.bivar.com/eLetter/driving-la.htm

You can also connect LEDs in parallel. However, variations in the forward voltage requirements of individual LEDs will result in non-uniform current distribution, and non-uniform current distribution results in non-uniform brightness.

As components age, their electrical characteristics change.

When components heat up, their electrical characteristics may change.

And since this is a REAL problem that more than one person is experiencing, SOMETHING is going on here that has completely ignored Ohm's Law.

We know:

- the Falcon is getting power because the other lights are illuminating.
- The left mandible light fails.
- The left mandible light is not blown out
- When a battery is substituted for the power supply, all lights illuminate.
- The Left mandible LED is wired correctly

What factors are left?

Accurate power delivery to each component.

Thank you for breaking it down... my feelings too. And I think it's because the weight from the Falcon on top of the male phono plug was causing some kind of problem because those jacks are not supposed to take that kind of weight on them.

JV

jvasilatos · Apr 22, 2009

Re: Cracking Open the MR Falcon to fix front LED. SEE POST #16 AND #17... IT'S THE B

b26354 said:
But JV is also adding a resistor to his battery which reduces the current available to all the lights which may (and I stress may) be helping balance the power to the parallel connected LEDS.

I still think unsoldering and resoldering the LED is what "fixed" it though. Google "dry joint".

So everyone who has a bad portside mandible light has a bad solder connection? I don't think so. And the theory can be easily proven or disproven bu someone else trying my fix.

I have extra resistors, first 3 people to PM me with their address I will send a resistor out to so they can test their Falcon's with the 9 volt fix.

JV

Java · Apr 22, 2009

Re: Cracking Open the MR Falcon to fix front LED. SEE POST #16 AND #17... IT'S THE B

Another thing to check is if the left mandible light is actually completely OFF. It might still be getting voltage and be SOOOOO dim that it appears off.

Can this be verified?

darendoc · Apr 22, 2009

Re: Cracking Open the MR Falcon to fix front LED. SEE POST #16 AND #17... IT'S THE B

I don't know if the base is your specific problem with the "dim" mandible light... but, I did have a problem in my display base... I'm pretty sure it had to do with the quality or lack of quality in the soldering of the switch assembly. I was able to pry the access plate off with a bit of difficulty, but got access to the switch and plug and stripped and re-soldered the connections, then put a replacement styrene panel on the bottom, glued it in place, and the unit has functioned fine ever since. This is all pointing to faulty soldering at some point in the circuits... and it's possible that dividing up the load with all the leds makes it so that the amps of the power supply can't get through the resistance of the bad solder, but that the battery can?

Cracking Open the MR Falcon to fix front LED. SEE POST #16 AND #17... IT'S THE BASE.

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