Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice (Post-release)

The term is "moot point." It also doesn't mean what people think it means, but that's another matter.

And yes, we have seen Batman at this point in his career before but not in film. Batman Beyond starts with an aged Batman hanging up the cowl just because he had to pick up a gun to keep himself alive. Not even firing it, just wielding it. Prior to the New 52 reboot Batman in the comics had been operating for about 13-15 years and was not in any way a killer. Kingdom Come featured an aged Batman who was fighting to prevent other heroes killing.

Really the only precedent for an aged Batman being fatally violent is Frank Miller's work. Miller's vision for who Batman is isn't consistent with the mainstream characterization of Batman. Snyder's take on Batman is clearly influenced heavily by Miller's though, so at least it's consistent with that.

While I agree with what you say, and it makes sense, for the purpose of the film, it doesnt. In DKR, Batman is trying to save gotham from the clutches of the mutants. Supes is a stooge for Reagan(hell yeah 80's) and is ordered to stop him cause he is kicking up a ruckus. Bats even uses rubber bullets on the mutants. In this though Bats is saying " I hate Superman cause he killed innocents" then he himself has no code, so what the hell is the point? He not only was killing dudes willy nilly, but he brought doomsday from an uninahbited island, to gotham! Wrecking stuff! And technically superman was defending Metropolis, and there was collateral damage, its not like he caused it himself. The most accurate thing I think I could say about this movie, is that none of it makes sense. From every angle. Hell the editing didnt make sense...
 
Completely deflates any tension that they could have in an "Under the Hood" adaptation too. If Batman has killed before, yet wont kill the Joker even after he killed Jason, then I hope Red Hood puts one between Batman's eyes.


It's the drama of operating on that edge of the abyss. He doesn't have to actually kill for us to worry this might be it when a writer does their job.
The Batman despite not having super powers, is considered a super hero anyways and not killing is a big part of that.
 
It's the drama of operating on that edge of the abyss. He doesn't have to actually kill for us to worry this might be it when a writer does their job.
The Batman despite not having super powers, is considered a super hero anyways and not killing is a big part of that.

I absolutely agree with you, otherwise he's just another maniac on the streets, and no one with an ounce of care about their reputation would allow him to be free (people like Gordon). His no killing rule is what allows the populace to turn a blind eye for the sake of all the good he does for them.
 
Just got back from seeing the movie.

It was bad. I was very disappointed in this film I had hoped for better.
So much of just seemed awkward. The editing, music cues, too much exposition.
Luthor was annoying.
Do we have to see Bruce's parents get killed every time Batman is on screen? If you are going to this kind of movie and don't know Batman's origin you should see something else.
The only time there was any energy from the audience is when Wonder Woman made her appearance.
The fight against Doomsday was good to watch , but that was all.
Snyder should not be allowed near a movie set again.

Joel Schumacher still holds the prize for worst Batman / Comic book movie but BvS came close.
 
Exactly. Its a prime example of Snyder not understanding the
characters. Look how bad MOS turned out, and WB was like "ok try your luck with batman, he makes money" but the studio doesnt realize the reason the Nolan films did well was not only he is a good director, but he CARED and UNDERSTOOD the characters. Respect the material! I thought the same thing, "those dudes are going to look like raw hamburger when they open those doors". It was ridiculous. A buddy and I scoffed when we saw that. Couldnt agree more. That crazy batman of Frank Millers belongs in the 80's. And, everyone seems to forget, that isnt a story in continuity... So its easy for Batman to go off the rails in a one shot comic. And it contradicts everything the Batman in BvS is supposed to be mad at Superman about!

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Not only that, but it would still be sitting there, in tact? For 18 months? The rest of the world wouldnt have any impact on that at all, Superman wouldnt have taken that to the arctic, or put it on the moon or something? Metropolis got rebuilt in a year, and they happen to be across the bay from Gotham, a cesspool compared to Metropolis? I could go on and on about this movie. I should probably stop.

Yeah I'm am reversing course and accepting it for a Fun popcorn movie that has nothing to do with DC like a fan film !
 
Batman didn't bother me much. Neither did the killing really. Someone is shooting anti-aircraft guns at me, i'm shooting back. Especially if i have to land there or near there. Same tends to go with bad guy goons. I know it goes against the code, but all onscreen bats have done it. Had he taken out a few citizens, that'd be different.

Superman on the other hand, i just don't get Snyders take on him period. He's supposed to be a boyscout and inspiring hope, yet he again comes off more like super @#$%. He's always got a scowl on his face. Always. Saving the girl from the fire in mexico he has to hover first then descend to the mothers level then lets everyone worship him - though it does seem odd to him. No reassurance, no she'll be ok now, nothing. Everyone time he has to interact with someone, he has to appear in the air hovering 20-30 feet up making them look up to him before he descends to their level. He can't just 'show up' and land.

Wouldn't mind seeing a batfleck solo movie honestly. Really interested in WW after this. Superman? No. It's like he's terrified of doing anything remotely close to a returns superman because of how people reacted to stalker superman, so we get jerk superman. Not sure this supes has had a happy scene with anyone outside of Lois who seemed to feature in this more than needed.

Now, as for why superman had to use the spear...it's doubtful batman could've gotten that close alive and stayed alive long enough to do the deed. As for WW, he'd have to get the spear, get her to stop fighting long enough to explain the spear to her so shed could do it. Just wasn't time in the equation. Plus, the his responsibility bit.
 
Well, I'll start off by cleaning up a quote from my dad...Opinions are like buttholes. Everybody has one, but that don't mean I want to hear from yours.;)

So here's mine...

Superman- More of what we saw in MoS. I didn't hate the film, but it didn't do anything to elevate the character. Nothing great, but I don't hate it, & I'll explain why i give it a pass in a bit.

Wonder Woman- WW was GREAT in battle, but I really can't see her carrying a solo film. Affleck isn't Lawrence Olivier, but to me, the Diana Prince/Bruce Wayne scenes just seemed awkward, & it wasn't his fault.

Batman- Here's where I differ from most, as I loved the portrayal of both BW & the Bat. It was definitely a departure from what we've seen before in a live-action film, but the reasoning behind it made sense to me.

First, we've never seen a Batman in this stage of his career. He's been doing this for over 20 years, he's suffered major loss since his time as Batman started & it's taken a huge toll on his psyche. The constant dreams/visions are evidence that he might be breaking. He's the last man standing in the war he's been waging, & that's made his decision making vulnerable, to the point someone like Luthor could manipulate him to the point he was. By the end, he's been renewed by seeing the sacrifice others were willing to make. It inspired him knowing that he's actually NOT alone in his crusade. He knows that there's something a LOT bigger coming as a threat, & he's going to be ready.

To address some of the issues others have pointed out-

The killing-You have BAD MEN attempting to do BAD THINGS. If in stopping them, they die, then so what? I go back to what Bale said in Batman Begins to Neeson, he didn't have to kill him, he just didn't have to save him. I'll admit, this has a bit of my personal feelings in it, too. You have a carload of teens that rob/carjack/kill/etc, then when being pursued by the police, they're in an accident, & some or all of them die. Here come the parents, social activists, & the professional outraged, declaring what a tragedy that these innocent young people died. They put themselves ina situation where there could be circumstances that would cause them harm.:confused

It was a departure, but not surprising,as I still don't see where he killed anyone.

The origin- I felt it fit, because it was part of the dream at the beginning. It was necessary to show the state of his mind, since although it has been 35-45 years ago, he's STILL haunted by it on a daily basis. It wasn't to tell it to us, it was to give us a glimpse in his head, & it's messed up.

Lastly, here's my take on the visions. I'm thinking Martian Manhunter. He's being held somewhere, & is trying to warn someone of the coming alien threat. That threat being Darkseid bringing Parademons & turning the Earth to another Apocalypse. He is able to reach Bruce, but Bruce's obsessions put Superman's face on the 'alien threat'.

The Flash vision sounded a lot like the Animated story from the 90's show, where Lois died, & Clark took it upon himself to declare himself the law.

My final thought is that the problems most people are having are because of DC's decision that every single iteration of their character is valid, because each iteration is separated by the Multiverse. This version of Batman is not the comic Batman. It's not the one from '66, from GOTHAM, from the Nolan films, from the Animated series, but they're ALL still BATMAN. It's just that EACH Batman is forged by the Universe he lives in. I showed my brother the first Nolan film, & he didn't even finish it, because he grew up in the mid-60's, & Adam West IS the one & only Batman.

Not saying this to belittle anyone's opinion or thoughts, but if you don't like the universe where these stories are happening, then you're not going to like the characters, & vice-versa.
 
I went into this movie with extremely low expectations after seeing Man of Steel and after being sorely disappointed by The Dark Knight Rises (Batman Begins was good, The Dark Knight was AMAZING, The Dark Knight Rises pissed me off royally).


Because I went in not expecting a lot, the movie was excellent.


Affleck was awesome. I was vindicated in my assertion that he would do good in the role (I too remember the extreme negativity to casting Michael Keaton back in 1989). He was appropriately intense as both Bruce Wayne and as Batman, and honestly, I don't think any other actor today could have pulled off that particular role.


Cavill was solid as Superman, though I believe they didn't spend near enough time with him as Clark Kent, instead focusing on him as Superman. They seem to have forgotten that who he is as Clark Kent informs who he is as Superman. He isn't good because he's an alien with superpowers. He's good because he was raised in a loving and nurturing environment that shaped him into an upstanding citizen. Even without super powers, Clark would have grown up to be a great man, one that I firmly believe would have still done good in the world.


Gadot was fantastic as Wonder Woman, showing that she could be a fierce fighter despite her size (something people STILL complain about). She was great in every scene she was in both as Wonder Woman and as Diana. The fact that Gadot is breathtakingly beautiful sure doesn't hurt either.


I was a bit disappointed in Adams' performance, but I chalk that up to the story and not the actress. We know she's a top investigative journalist, and she showed that in MoS by being able to track down Clark from whispered stories around the globe. Unfortunately the pacing of this film didn't allow for any actual showing of her skills. Damned shame, really.


I'm ambivalent about Eisenberg. On one hand, knowing that he's actually Lex Luthor, Jr (this is not a spoiler, as they'd confirmed this many times before the movie came out) means I can forgive him for not being the Lex we all know and loathe because he's very much not that Lex. On the other, his performance was a bit too manic at times, making you wonder how he could focus long enough to write an email, let alone hatch all these intricate plots of his.




Really, I have only three complaints about the movie:


1) Overall, I think the movie moved just WAY too fast. They tried to cram too much into it when, with the amount of material they had, they could have easily made it into two separate films. Because of this, a lot of unanswered questions remain about certain aspects of the film, such as how Lex got ahold of Clark's and presumably Bruce's identities.


2) They could have done a bit more with the Clark Kent side of Kal El.


3) They could DEFINITELY have used more Wonder Woman.
 
I laughed a lot...


... then I actually felt bad for BA. He's a good actor who is as big a Batman fan as anybody here. And he, no doubt, put his heart and soul into his performance of a once in a lifetime role, but has no creative control over the film that the director plants him in. After so many years invested he's got to be at least a little heartbroken. I feel sorry for him. It's no fault of his that he hitched his wagon to Zach's falling star.
 
I could see the problems that the critics had with the movie, but I thought it was pretty entertaining and I loved this version of Batman/ Bruce Wayne the best of any of the ones I've seen. One thing I was disappointed in was the music, the Wonder Woman cue especially seemed out of place and Luthor's theme as well seemed like a strange choice considering the rest of the score. Loved Batman's scene in the warehouse though!
 
I can sum it up. When Supes died at the end, I couldn't have cared less. Affleck won me over quick as Batman. The Nolan films are some of my favorites, so I was surprised how quick I accepted him as the new Batman. They might as well get Winona Ryder to play Lex. I gave Eisenberg a chance, but it was totally wrong.
 
I think we all can agree though, they showed all the cool stuff in the trailer. Am I only one bothered that this was basically a Batman/Bruce Wayne movie? Bats is all the rage right now, but honestly, I am sick of him. I love him in the DCAU because they dont over use him, but man, even suicide squad is going to have Batman in it. If done correctly, DC has a kick ass stable of heroes. Im sick of Batman getting the spotlight the entire time. Hell, this was supposed to be a sequel to MoS...Than it got bat-jacked.

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This was great by the way, thank you! :lol
 
I saw it last night. Can't say I loved it....not like I Loved The Dark Knight, but , can't say I hated it. The short scenes of the movie reminded me of a comic book. I think BA did a good job with Batman, but it was a shame the most exciting scene with Batman came near the very end beating the crap out of the guys in the warehouse....that was exciting. I really liked Wonderwoman. I felt her character was well played, and I loved seeing her play her part. There were certainly moments I enjoyed through the movie, but it almost seemed like this was just an intro to things to come. I don't know if we're just spoiled with how overwelmingly great Marvel movies have been, that this DC movie just doesn't please, if they are taking it in a different direction just to separate them from what Marvel is doing, but I hope Wonderwoman gets things back on track, or they'll be rebooting this stuff in 5 years...
 
I saw it last night. Can't say I loved it....not like I Loved The Dark Knight, but , can't say I hated it. The short scenes of the movie reminded me of a comic book. I think BA did a good job with Batman, but it was a shame the most exciting scene with Batman came near the very end beating the crap out of the guys in the warehouse....that was exciting. I really liked Wonderwoman. I felt her character was well played, and I loved seeing her play her part. There were certainly moments I enjoyed through the movie, but it almost seemed like this was just an intro to things to come. I don't know if we're just spoiled with how overwelmingly great Marvel movies have been, that this DC movie just doesn't please, if they are taking it in a different direction just to separate them from what Marvel is doing, but I hope Wonderwoman gets things back on track, or they'll be rebooting this stuff in 5 years...

Although I did like a few batman aspects, namely alfred, and the suit, I would not mind if they rebooted this movie in a few years. I also didnt mind BA as bats, it worked. I was super skeptical when he was cast, like everyone, but I think he was the only decent thing in the whole movie, and thats the problem. Its not supposed to be a damn batman movie.
 
Considering Batman is the one who's going to assemble the Justice League and lead them (at the beginning at least), and with the movie being named Dawn of Justice, it kinda is supposed to be a batman movie in the end. And they didn't lie, there was superman in it too for a decent amount of time, and they did fight as advertised. Not sure what you think this was going to be.
 
Poor Affleck. He goes from the lowest rated Daredevil feature to the lowest rated Batman feature. This time is not his fault.
 
I know there is mixed feelings about this film but IMO i think the overall package was pretty good.
Not as good as the dark knight trilogy but for me i wasnt ever expecting it to top them.
Alot happened in this film, maybe a smidgen too much but at least the ball for justice league is well and truly rolling.
The casting for me was perfect, Batfleck silenced the doubters once and for all, Gadot was great, Eisenberg i felt was the dark horse that surprised me (in a good way) and Cavill just IS superman. I don't understand why no love for Snyder though?? Man of steel for me was a perfect film and this was definately no train wreck. imo justice league is in good hands but thats just me...
 
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